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new e74 fix :)
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NteStlKr
Junior Member
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23. April 2011 @ 12:50 |
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OK, so I've had 2 troublesome e74 360's that just won't fix. I've improved thermal conductivity to heatsinks, reflowed solder, modified fans to 12v, and so forth. I even modified a fan shroud to allow for a powered heatsink (old spare pentium cpu heatsink) on the hana/ana chip... And yet, these two boxes still refuse to work more than a couple minutes. Both boxes' previous owners had used the 'towel trick' way too many times. If it doesn't permanently fix the problem the first time... then something else needs to be done. Why can't people get this? ohh, well...
So, anyway, I started looking hard and I found a solution that was so simple I can't believe I've never seen or heard of it. In fact, I'm sure someone has figured it out before I have, and just kept it their own lil secret.
First and foremost, of course, do this at your own risk.
But anyway, what you need:
1 stubborn e74 360 (preferably with the heatpipe gpu heatsink). This probably helps RROD 360's as well, perhaps preventing the dreaded post-x-clap-RROD-FIX-374.
Some adhesive (I used shoe goo, as it is strong, sets up very quickly, is thick, and sticks to everything I needed it to).
Some aluminum foil. (Why aluminum foil? because it is thin, can be easily molded to channel air as you wish, isn't flammable, and I had some in the cupboard :p )
First, get the 360 down to where the DVD drive is out, and you can see the whole 'top' of the mobo, except what is covered by the fan shroud.
Then, cut out about a 5"x5" piece of aluminum foil, and keep the scissors handy. On the GPU heatsink (the part of it that's usually under the DVD drive), make it to the size where about half an inch is over the plastic, on the side of the gpu heatsink. Now I haven't tried too much testing to optimize the size, but I put mine to where the far end of the foil is at the edge of the GPU (toward the 'front' of the 360). I also wrapped about 3/8 inch around the 'side' of the gpu heatsink. In the end, it will end up being about a 4"x4" piece with about 3/8" bent at 90deg on one side.
Then, once your size and shape is right, put adhesive on the part of the shroud that is covered by foil, and press it down to secure it in place. :)
With the older xbox, it had no heatpipe (and I didn't want to risk the money on getting a heatpipe heatsink that might not work, as the thing was so stubborn), this is all I could do to increase the effeciency.
What this does is force air over as much of the surface area of the heatsink as possible, instead of simply being sucked through the gap (or rear) of the heatsink. In other words, flowing through it, instead of around it. In theory, this drastically increases the thermal effeciency of the heatsink. I tested it, and it stayed on long enough to actually play a level. :D
But, I wanted to know if it was either 1. making the temp just rise more slowly (thus delaying the inevitable) or 2. whether it actually made it efficient enough to where it simply wouldn't reach the temps needed to get the e74 error. (in other words, whether it is a temp fix, or a permanent solution).
So, what I did was start the system with the foil in place, and played a little. Then, I lifted the dvd drive enough to remove the foil. Within about a minute, graphical artifacts began to appear (usually meaning that e74 was about 30s-1m away). Then, I lifted the drive again, and replaced the foil (just setting it in place dry). Within about 15 seconds, all artifacts were gone. In other words, instead of slowing the heating process, it was actually cooling the overheated video chips. Therefore it is permanent (barring significant obstructions, like excessive dust or sucking in a leaf).
So it's actually fixed!
OK, now xbox 2. This one was worse off. It had the heatpipe heatsink, along with all the other mods (except the foil) and it still was failing. What I did was the same as above, except, with the heatpipe heatsink, I had another option to further increase efficiency FAR more.
What's needed: same as above, plus a heatpipe heatsink.
Cut a piece of aluminum foil about 6" x 6".
The goal is to go from about half an inch from the edge of the shroud, across the CPU heatsink, and then angled down to channel air through the mini heatsink part of the GPU heatsink. So just cut and shape. The foil should stop even with the bottom of the mini heatsink. It should wrap around the sides of the CPU heatsink and fan shroud, stopping well clear of anything it could short on. Then just adhere it in place.
Before I adhered mine in place, I did the same test as before, with the same results. So it should be a permanent solution as well. In fact, I reverted back from the 12v fan mod, and it still worked. So I left at the lower voltage.
At the lower voltage, I tested the warm system with and without the shroud and the foil raised the exhaust temp by 8 degrees F. All that is extra heat removed from the system because of the increased heatsink efficiency. :D
I haven't tested the older xbox, but with the heatpipe one it increased the exhaust temp by about
I can post pics later if anyone wants.
Any comments?
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coorva
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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23. April 2011 @ 13:04 |
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what did you use to reflow the board??
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Gray626
Member
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23. April 2011 @ 13:10 |
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Pics would be nice.
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NteStlKr
Junior Member
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23. April 2011 @ 14:22 |
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ok, I'll get pics later today hopefully, when I get some more spare time.
I used a heat gun to reflow. A friend of mine has a body shop, so I borrowed one. I tried with a hair dryer but it didn't work. It may have eventually, but it heated everything up so slowly it made me worried that some parts might get too hot before it melted the solder. The heat gun was able to melt the solder before the other parts got too hot. At least, that is my experience.
But with these two boards, the reflow did nothing. I can see that the solder was melted, but apparently the solder was either not broken in the first place, or heat made the 360 error out before any broken solder became a problem.
I'm debating on whether or not to do this to 360's that haven't errored out from RROD/e74 (but that are after the 3-year warranty, of course). This might be preventative. I have to say, though, that I think it would probably be better to just reseat the heatsinks, or do a full x-clamp fix first, leaving this as an option only when needed. Though this foil mod significantly increased heat drawn out of the xbox, I haven't done it for very long-- just a couple days. So far, no problems, but it remains to be seen if this 'air reflow' has any downsides such as creating overheating problems for other onboard chips the have now lost sufficient ventilation. From just looking visually, I don't see any potential problems, though.
orig temp out the back of the (heatpipe) 360 exhaust was 97 with an ambient room temp of 73 (24 deg above ambient). After the mod, the echaust temp was about 105 (32 deg above ambient). When I removed it, the exhaust temp dropped back to 97 (after about a minute). ambient temp was checked after the tests and it was still 73. (temps if F)
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coorva
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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23. April 2011 @ 14:39 |
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coorva
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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23. April 2011 @ 14:45 |
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microsoft after a ban wave
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NteStlKr
Junior Member
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23. April 2011 @ 16:08 |
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yeah, without going through with the proper equipment, there is always the chance that there is one connection that didn't get melted, and that could be it. But that's a lot of work, and this isn't :p I'm just not comfortable going through re-soldering properly. One bad slip and its dead. I have the equipment, and plenty of leaded solder, but it really is a pain. I've done it before with larger electronic devices and I hated it. But yeah, I do suspect that it could be a solder issue still. Apparently it is in a spot different than other boxes I've reflowed, or it should have been fixed.
One of the consoles has been on now for about 48 hours and it's still working fine. My hope is that doing this might be an alternative to doing a proper reflow, or heatgun reflow for many people because apparently conductivity breaks down as heat goes up. If temp is permanently below that threshold, then the problem doesn't come up anymore. Also, if heat never gets there in the first place (before RROD/e74) then the problems never develop, thus negating the need to ever reflow. But that's just a hypothesis... so continue to comment away.
I'll check out the vid later. Thanks for the link.
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Member
7 product reviews
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24. April 2011 @ 01:22 |
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Would like to see some pics if you got the time
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NteStlKr
Junior Member
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24. April 2011 @ 02:36 |
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some pics...
First, on this one, I ended up chopping off most of the front (circled in blue) before I put it in the case for further testing. All the pics are before I chopped it. I figured this would pull more air through the heatsink than making the air come from below, which means it could have bypassed it.
assorted views...
the last one is of both the problem 360's. The older one I left alone, and added the foil to the GPU and CPU. I put it back together and it is still running like a champ.
With the other one, however, I'm having problems. After putting it back together fully, it is performing much better than it did with the 12v mod (artifact point at about an hour vs under 2 mins). But at stock fan voltage and the foil mod, it still couldn't cope fully. While it never failed, the temp plateaued at just over the artifact point (minor artifacts visible sometimes). So it only needs to dissipate slightly more heat to be stable. But, there will always be times when just enough isn't enough. And I'd like to keep it well within temps. So I'm going to rewire it to 12v (or maybe make it about 9v... I haven't decided yet). Or I could try to modify something else first, because 12v fans are just loud. I'll post an update, though, whatever the case.
But still, that is very impressive. A simple addition of foil performed much better than making the fans 12v. :) What sucks though is that the programming on the 360 doesn't make the fan speed go up where it should... it stays too low. If it adjusted properly, it would work fine. :(
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coorva
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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24. April 2011 @ 07:46 |
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also what you should do is cut out the metal grill where the fans are,i do that to all my xboxs and it makes a world a differance in the airflow,the more airflow less chance for red rings,the other thing is to 12volt mod the fans,it will sound like a jet but that to will lower the risk of a shutdown
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7 product reviews
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24. April 2011 @ 10:47 |
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Looks pretty good. I'll have to try it out on some of my problem ones I have lying around along with coorvas suggestion of cutting the back grate out. Great job! Thanks for the info guys!
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Modking30
AfterDawn Addict
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24. April 2011 @ 11:22 |
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Covering the fins of the heatsinks isn't a good idea. They are designed that way for a reason. Just reflow and do the 12v as mentioned above. Covering the fins, will prevent the copper from getting cooled.
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NteStlKr
Junior Member
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24. April 2011 @ 12:28 |
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Thanks for the suggestion coorva. I'll grab my dremel and cut that out of the boxes whenever I get done testing.
I had cut out about half the foil from the front where the blue circle was. But after thinking about it, like modking said, it's just blocking flow. I ended up cutting all of that front piece off, making it about even with the front of the mini heatsink. That way it flows through that instead of around (well, under) it. That alone should increase efficiency significantly... maybe the couple percent I need.
I've put it back together completely (still at stock voltage) and it's been going for about 2 hours now with no artifacts (wasw 1 hour before I cut that little bit of foil). I'll keep it going for a few more hours and see what happens. If it is still good, then I'll take it back apart and chop the grate. I'll give it a once-over and see if I can improve the efficiency any more with the foil, and then put it back together. And then I'll deal with the artifacts and/or e74 error with a 12v mod if they ever return.
I'll post pics later of how I modified the foil.
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Senior Member
3 product reviews
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27. April 2011 @ 01:44 |
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Just get some wire cutters and take your time, you can easily remove the metal mesh with wire cutters. I used to do this all the time but now i just 12V and slap a warranty sticker on it.
Here's some really old pictures that will show you how to remove the mesh.
This is just using wire cutters, i left the middle for a little reinforcement.
This is what happens when you spend too much time on trying to smooth things out (after you cut yourself on a leftover sharp edge).
As for your tin foil mod... i'm speechless.
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cab0747
Junior Member
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27. April 2011 @ 13:44 |
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I mean... this isnt a HORRIBLE idea. It is pretty much a fan shroud mod on roids. Is aluminium foil conductive? If so, this could cause shorts and bridge circuits giving you the 0001 0002 or 0003 error. Watch it.
Another observation, I would take the shroud off of the upper level of the GPU heatsink. With it covered you are getting almsot no airflow though it.
I still like the idea of cardboard covered in elictrical tape a bit better. The foil would make me nevous.
One last thought: The 12v mod will make the biggest difference (outside of water cooling the console). It is always my first step in modding a console after I have given it a reflow to remove the RROD.
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