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AdwCleaner- removing but not removingTrymedia/Conduit
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bauld1
Junior Member
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18. July 2013 @ 12:43 |
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Hi everyone,
AdwCleaner has found and deleted trymedia and conduit several times now when scanning.
are they viruses and why are they reappearing if AdwCleaner is deleting them.
Also in the last couple of days a message An unauthorised change was made to windows
Error 0xcoo4 d401 security processor reported a system file mismatch error
Are these 2 different problems or are they related.Laptop is not running slow,but it does get very hot
maybe a coincidence or just the age of the laptop(6yrs).
Thanks in advance for any help or advice
cheers bauld 1
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AfterDawn Addict
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18. July 2013 @ 14:13 |
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Originally posted by bauld1:
Hi everyone,
AdwCleaner has found and deleted trymedia and conduit several times now when scanning.
are they viruses and why are they reappearing if AdwCleaner is deleting them.
Also in the last couple of days a message An unauthorised change was made to windows
Error 0xcoo4 d401 security processor reported a system file mismatch error
Are these 2 different problems or are they related.Laptop is not running slow,but it does get very hot
maybe a coincidence or just the age of the laptop(6yrs).
Thanks in advance for any help or advice
cheers bauld 1
Poor bauld1. You seem to have weird problems. Let's see what we can do.
Re-run AdwCleaner and don?t fix anything yet just post the log.
Please download AdwCleaner from here and save it on your Desktop.
? Right-click on adwcleaner.exe and select Run As Administrator (for XP just double click) to launch the application.
? Now click on the Search tab.
? Please post the the log-file for me to look over in your next post.
2oG
There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading; The few who learn by observation;
The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves... |
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bauld1
Junior Member
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18. July 2013 @ 14:43 |
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Hi 2oG
log for AdwCleaner# AdwCleaner v2.112 - Logfile created 07/18/2013 at 19:39:50
# Updated 10/02/2013 by Xplode
# Operating system : Windows (TM) Vista Ultimate (64 bits)
# User : intro - INTRO-PC
# Boot Mode : Normal
# Running from : C:\Users\colin\Desktop\AdwCleaner.exe
# Option [Search]
***** [Services] *****
***** [Files / Folders] *****
Folder Found : C:\Users\colin\AppData\Local\Conduit
***** [Registry] *****
***** [Internet Browsers] *****
-\\ Internet Explorer v7.0.6000.16982
[OK] Registry is clean.
-\\ Opera v12.16.1860.0
File : C:\Users\intro\AppData\Roaming\Opera\Opera\operaprefs.ini
[OK] File is clean.
File : C:\Users\colin\AppData\Roaming\Opera\Opera\operaprefs.ini
[OK] File is clean.
File : C:\Users\carol\AppData\Roaming\Opera\Opera\operaprefs.ini
[OK] File is clean.
File : C:\Users\ciara\AppData\Roaming\Opera\Opera\operaprefs.ini
[OK] File is clean.
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AfterDawn Addict
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18. July 2013 @ 15:00 |
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Not much there?.
Next run this one:
Please download Junkware Removal Tool to your desktop.
? Shut down your protection software now to avoid potential conflicts. Turn off any Anti-Virus or Malware scanner?
? Run the tool by double-clicking it. If you are using Windows Vista or Seven, right-mouse click it and select Run as Administrator.
? The tool will open and start scanning your system.
? Please be patient as this can take a while to complete depending on your system's specifications.
? On completion, a log (JRT.txt) is saved to your desktop and will automatically open.
? Post the contents of JRT.txt into your next message.
We?ll see what this turns up..
2oG
There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading; The few who learn by observation;
The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves... |
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bauld1
Junior Member
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18. July 2013 @ 15:29 |
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Hi 2oG
log for jrt
Junkware Removal Tool (JRT) by Thisisu
Version: 4.6.9 (03.06.2013:1)
OS: Windows (TM) Vista Ultimate x64
Ran by intro on 18/07/2013 at 20:07:06.23
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~ Services
~~~ Registry Values
~~~ Registry Keys
~~~ Files
~~~ Folders
~~~ Event Viewer Logs were cleared
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scan was completed on 18/07/2013 at 20:24:42.98
End of JRT log
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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bauld1
Junior Member
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18. July 2013 @ 15:40 |
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Hi 2oG
only log that came up,should there be more info?checked and no other txt info is on comp.
When i run and delete AdwCleaner it says trymedia and conduit removed,but when i run it again a few days or whatever they both appear.just wasnt sure if they were viruses or not,the windows error 0xc004d401 seems to be causing logging on probs,thought they may be connected.
Thanks again for your time,knowledge and help
cheers
bauld 1
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AfterDawn Addict
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18. July 2013 @ 15:41 |
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Nothing shown up yet. What problems are you having other than it reoccurring??
Did you get a BSOD blue screen with the Error 0xcoo4 d401?
Run a Hijackthis and post a Log for me..
2oG
There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading; The few who learn by observation;
The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves... |
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bauld1
Junior Member
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18. July 2013 @ 16:01 |
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Hi 2oG
just comp is running fast and getting hot very quickly.The windows message started a couple of weeks ago but was about windows office,i ran jrt,adw,tfc and malware and it disappeared for a while but a couple of times i had to shut down comp to log on as the warning would not let me log on,but now message has changed to
An unauthorised change was made to Windows you will no longer recieve notifications including those about your license or activation.Use link below to find out how to fix your system.Error 0XC4004 D401
Security processor Reported a system file mismatch error.
strange as it may seen i haven't clicked on the link,I did before and it took me to microsft site for upgrading office.
going to run and post Hijack this now,again thanks for you help,knowledge and patience
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. July 2013 @ 16:02
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bauld1
Junior Member
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18. July 2013 @ 17:39 |
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Hi 2oG
Sorry for delay had to keep shutting comp down to log on.downloaded Hijackthis from file hippo
but cant copy and post log,tried everything i know and cant paste it,right clicked on icon,run as admin never came up,tried clicking on notepad,Start ,run etc didnt work either,any suggestions.
I logged off my page ,thought that was prob,now on as admin same happening.
Apologies for my stupidity but dont know what else to do,apart from run the scan and type out result(with my typing skills about 3 days lol)
Cheers
bauld1
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AfterDawn Addict
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18. July 2013 @ 18:11 |
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After digging into my notes from the (yuck) Vista days, I came upon this:
This dastardly error seems to surface out of nowhere. You?ll be quietly going about your business, when all of a sudden, WHAM!, a dialog box appears displaying the following text:
"Windows Vista Error 0XC004D401: The security processor reported a system file mismatch error."
Or, you might see this error message:
"An unauthorized change was made to your license.To keep your system stable, you must go online and validate that your software is genuine.?
There are some antivirus programs and Digital Rights Management programs that are incompatible with Windows Vista. that causes error 0XC004D401:
Here?s a list of software. Installing this software can introduce the aforementioned error.
PC Tools Spyware Doctor
Trend Micro OfficeScan
Blumentals Software iNET Protector
PC Tools Firewall Plus
TuneUp Utilities
Trend Micro PC-Cillin Internet Security
Can you boot into Safe Mode?? I hope so and if you can look for and uninstall any of these known programs and while you are at it, uninstall any Antivirus/Malware scanners or Tuneup/cleanup programs you may have. You can always reinstall or replace them with something else.
Why are you still using Vista? It nearly drove me crazy back in it's day.. lol
If you can get into safe mode run a HJT log from there..
Try and let me know.
2oG
There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading; The few who learn by observation;
The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves... |
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ddp
Moderator
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18. July 2013 @ 19:05 |
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bauld1, in what way is the computer getting hot as in the case or cpu itself?
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bauld1
Junior Member
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18. July 2013 @ 19:15 |
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Hi 2oG
nothing that i know of has been installed recently,so dont know where or how it became corrupt,Avast,maleware,jrt,adwarecleanerand tfc are all i use.I also noticed when i clear browsing history facebook.com is always there,i never use it but the wifes never off it(seperate pages),maybe something has been corrupted with that.
any way will try safe mode and see if i can get that log for you,many thanks again(i never make it easy for ya lol)
cheers
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bauld1
Junior Member
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18. July 2013 @ 19:27 |
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success in safe mode hijackthis log thanks
Logfile of Trend Micro HijackThis v2.0.4
Scan saved at 00:23:05, on 19/07/2013
Platform: Windows Vista (WinNT 6.00.1904)
MSIE: Internet Explorer v7.00 (7.00.6000.16982)
Boot mode: Safe mode with network support
Running processes:
C:\Program Files (x86)\Trend Micro\HiJackThis\HiJackThis.exe
R1 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Search Page = http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=54896
R0 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Start Page = http://www.google.ie/
R1 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Default_Page_URL = http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=69157
R1 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Default_Search_URL = http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=54896
R1 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Search Page = http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=54896
R0 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Main,Start Page = http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=69157
R0 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Search,SearchAssistant =
R0 - HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Search,CustomizeSearch =
R1 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Internet Settings,ProxyOverride = *.local
R0 - HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Internet Explorer\Toolbar,LinksFolderName =
F2 - REG:system.ini: UserInit=userinit.exe
O1 - Hosts: ::1 localhost
O2 - BHO: AcroIEHelperStub - {18DF081C-E8AD-4283-A596-FA578C2EBDC3} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Adobe\Acrobat\ActiveX\AcroIEHelperShim.dll
O2 - BHO: Groove GFS Browser Helper - {72853161-30C5-4D22-B7F9-0BBC1D38A37E} - C:\PROGRA~2\MICROS~1\Office12\GRA8E1~1.DLL
O2 - BHO: Java(tm) Plug-In SSV Helper - {761497BB-D6F0-462C-B6EB-D4DAF1D92D43} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Java\jre7\bin\ssv.dll
O2 - BHO: avast! WebRep - {8E5E2654-AD2D-48bf-AC2D-D17F00898D06} - C:\Program Files\AVAST Software\Avast\aswWebRepIE.dll
O2 - BHO: Java(tm) Plug-In 2 SSV Helper - {DBC80044-A445-435b-BC74-9C25C1C588A9} - C:\Program Files (x86)\Java\jre7\bin\jp2ssv.dll
O3 - Toolbar: avast! WebRep - {8E5E2654-AD2D-48bf-AC2D-D17F00898D06} - C:\Program Files\AVAST Software\Avast\aswWebRepIE.dll
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [GrooveMonitor] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Office\Office12\GrooveMonitor.exe"
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [SunJavaUpdateSched] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Java\Java Update\jusched.exe"
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [QlbCtrl.exe] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Hewlett-Packard\HP Quick Launch Buttons\QlbCtrl.exe" /Start
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [Adobe ARM] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Adobe\ARM\1.0\AdobeARM.exe"
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [avast] "C:\Program Files\AVAST Software\Avast\avastUI.exe" /nogui
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [APSDaemon] "C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Apple\Apple Application Support\APSDaemon.exe"
O4 - HKLM\..\Run: [iTunesHelper] "C:\Program Files (x86)\iTunes\iTunesHelper.exe"
O4 - HKCU\..\Run: [ehTray.exe] C:\Windows\ehome\ehTray.exe
O4 - HKUS\S-1-5-19\..\Run: [Sidebar] %ProgramFiles%\Windows Sidebar\Sidebar.exe /detectMem (User 'LOCAL SERVICE')
O4 - HKUS\S-1-5-19\..\Run: [WindowsWelcomeCenter] rundll32.exe oobefldr.dll,ShowWelcomeCenter (User 'LOCAL SERVICE')
O4 - HKUS\S-1-5-20\..\Run: [Sidebar] %ProgramFiles%\Windows Sidebar\Sidebar.exe /detectMem (User 'NETWORK SERVICE')
O4 - Global Startup: Secunia PSI Tray.lnk = C:\Program Files (x86)\Secunia\PSI\psi_tray.exe
O8 - Extra context menu item: E&xport to Microsoft Excel - res://C:\PROGRA~2\MICROS~1\Office12\EXCEL.EXE/3000
O9 - Extra button: Send to OneNote - {2670000A-7350-4f3c-8081-5663EE0C6C49} - C:\PROGRA~2\MICROS~1\Office12\ONBttnIE.dll
O9 - Extra 'Tools' menuitem: S&end to OneNote - {2670000A-7350-4f3c-8081-5663EE0C6C49} - C:\PROGRA~2\MICROS~1\Office12\ONBttnIE.dll
O9 - Extra button: Research - {92780B25-18CC-41C8-B9BE-3C9C571A8263} - C:\PROGRA~2\MICROS~1\Office12\REFIEBAR.DLL
O18 - Protocol: grooveLocalGWS - {88FED34C-F0CA-4636-A375-3CB6248B04CD} - C:\PROGRA~2\MICROS~1\Office12\GR99D3~1.DLL
O22 - SharedTaskScheduler: Component Categories cache daemon - {8C7461EF-2B13-11d2-BE35-3078302C2030} - C:\Windows\system32\browseui.dll
O23 - Service: Adobe Acrobat Update Service (AdobeARMservice) - Adobe Systems Incorporated - C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Adobe\ARM\1.0\armsvc.exe
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\Alg.exe,-112 (ALG) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\alg.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: Apple Mobile Device - Apple Inc. - C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Apple\Mobile Device Support\AppleMobileDeviceService.exe
O23 - Service: avast! Antivirus - AVAST Software - C:\Program Files\AVAST Software\Avast\AvastSvc.exe
O23 - Service: Bonjour Service - Apple Inc. - C:\Program Files\Bonjour\mDNSResponder.exe
O23 - Service: Com4QLBEx - Hewlett-Packard Development Company, L.P. - C:\Program Files (x86)\Hewlett-Packard\HP Quick Launch Buttons\Com4QLBEx.exe
O23 - Service: @dfsrres.dll,-101 (DFSR) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\DFSR.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: COMODO Dragon Update Service (DragonUpdater) - Unknown owner - C:\Program Files (x86)\Comodo\Dragon\dragon_updater.exe
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\fxsresm.dll,-118 (Fax) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\fxssvc.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: GamesAppService - WildTangent, Inc. - C:\Program Files (x86)\WildTangent Games\App\GamesAppService.exe
O23 - Service: hpqwmiex - Hewlett-Packard Development Company, L.P. - C:\Program Files (x86)\Hewlett-Packard\Shared\hpqwmiex.exe
O23 - Service: IconMan_R - Realsil Microelectronics Inc. - C:\Program Files (x86)\Realtek\Realtek USB 2.0 Card Reader\RIconMan.exe
O23 - Service: iPod Service - Apple Inc. - C:\Program Files\iPod\bin\iPodService.exe
O23 - Service: @keyiso.dll,-100 (KeyIso) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\lsass.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @comres.dll,-2797 (MSDTC) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\msdtc.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\System32\netlogon.dll,-102 (Netlogon) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\lsass.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: Online Games Manager (ogmservice) - RealNetworks, Inc. - C:\Program Files (x86)\Online Games Manager\ogmservice.exe
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\psbase.dll,-300 (ProtectedStorage) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\lsass.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\Locator.exe,-2 (RpcLocator) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\locator.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\samsrv.dll,-1 (SamSs) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\lsass.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: Secunia PSI Agent - Secunia - C:\Program Files (x86)\Secunia\PSI\PSIA.exe
O23 - Service: Secunia Update Agent - Secunia - C:\Program Files (x86)\Secunia\PSI\sua.exe
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\SLsvc.exe,-101 (slsvc) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\SLsvc.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\snmptrap.exe,-3 (SNMPTRAP) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\snmptrap.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\spoolsv.exe,-1 (Spooler) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\spoolsv.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\ui0detect.exe,-101 (UI0Detect) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\UI0Detect.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%SystemRoot%\system32\vds.exe,-100 (vds) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\System32\vds.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\vssvc.exe,-102 (VSS) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\vssvc.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%systemroot%\system32\wbengine.exe,-104 (wbengine) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\wbengine.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%Systemroot%\system32\wbem\wmiapsrv.exe,-110 (wmiApSrv) - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\wbem\WmiApSrv.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: @%ProgramFiles%\Windows Media Player\wmpnetwk.exe,-101 (WMPNetworkSvc) - Unknown owner - C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Media Player\wmpnetwk.exe (file missing)
O23 - Service: XAudioService - Unknown owner - C:\Windows\system32\DRIVERS\xaudio64.exe (file missing)
--
End of file - 8073 bytes
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bauld1
Junior Member
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18. July 2013 @ 19:54 |
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Hi ddp,
Hope all is well,
Both,the fan is blowing out really hot air,the bottom left of laptop and underneath laptop get very hot
maybe its because its old its working hard,but the last time i had probs i remember it sounding as if it was working hard and getting hot,cleaned around the fan outside but nothing seems to be blocking the vent.I sit it on the table propped up and fan it with a newspaper or whatever to try and cool it down lol.
take care and thanks again
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AfterDawn Addict
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18. July 2013 @ 20:03 |
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All I can see is that your computer is as clean as a hound's tooth or an old maid's parlor.
As DDP inquired, you may have a hardware problem with the overheating and need to check that out.
You may have dirt and lint built up in the Heatsink Fins.
Vista was notorious for this error and there is a ton of info on the internet about it.
Check to see if a system file has been corrupted:
open the run box and type in: "SFC /scannow" without the quotes and run it to see if it can correct a corrupted system file. I really don't remember how it's done on Vista but I think that is right..
2oG
There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading; The few who learn by observation;
The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves...This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. July 2013 @ 20:13
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ddp
Moderator
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18. July 2013 @ 20:25 |
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bauld1, do you have access or can get access to an air compressor to give the laptop's vents a good blow job? had to do that to a customer's laptop & it resolved the issues he was getting from the overheating.
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AfterDawn Addict
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18. July 2013 @ 20:32 |
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Yeah, but turn it down.. 200 psi is OVERKILL!
There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading; The few who learn by observation;
The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves... |
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bauld1
Junior Member
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18. July 2013 @ 20:33 |
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Hi ddp and 2oG
thanks again for the help ill try the,blow job and scannow shortly and let u know how i get on ,hopefully this will find the corrupted file or fix it,sorry for being a pain,be good and take care
thanks again for your help,knowledge and wisdom
Cheers
bauld1
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scorpNZ
AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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18. July 2013 @ 20:46 |
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Avast has a bad habbit of quarrantining system files,would pay to check it hasn't got hold of some of them,then again there's always windows loader by daz
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AfterDawn Addict
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22. July 2013 @ 21:10 |
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Originally posted by bauld1:
Hi ddp and 2oG
thanks again for the help ill try the,blow job and scannow shortly and let u know how i get on ,hopefully this will find the corrupted file or fix it,sorry for being a pain,be good and take care
thanks again for your help,knowledge and wisdom
Cheers
bauld1
haven't heard from you.... Any joy from the Blow job or scannow???
Let us know..
2oG
There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading; The few who learn by observation;
The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves... |
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bauld1
Junior Member
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23. July 2013 @ 07:56 |
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Hi 2oG
apologies for delay,tried scannow nothing happened, not tried the blow job yet,a friend has a pump,be the end of week before it gets done.
Been looking through internet regarding the Error message - seems quite a common problem caused by Avast!Maybe you can suggest a free anti virus thats good until Avast sort out the problem (there are hours and hours of reading about the prob with several different options)most are saying to uninstall Avast.
Again thanks for time and help,take care
Cheers
bauld1
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scorpNZ
AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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23. July 2013 @ 14:55 |
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Be sure avast hasn't removed any critical system files before deleting it & before you install any other antivirus software crap create a system backup image your more than likely going to need it, or you might just get lucky & it won't flag critical windows system files as viruses & promptly delete them.
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bauld1
Junior Member
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23. July 2013 @ 16:05 |
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Hi scorpNZ
thanks for the heads up,the problem seems to be compatabillity between Avast and microsoft, I dont think Avast is removing any files or anything.There are tons of forums on this problem all with different answers,(my head is spinning with the amount of stuff lol)i thought the easiest way would be to ditch Avast(sadly) and try something else till the problem was resolved,but Avast blame microsoft and vice versa,so maybe it will not get fixed.
Thanks again take care
Cheers
bauld1
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ddp
Moderator
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23. July 2013 @ 20:38 |
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a friend ran into a similar problem with norton av & his lexmark all-in-1 printer when he did the once a year renewal of norton. printer won't work because of the new version of norton so lexmark blamed norton & vice versa. norton or lexmark will eventually get the problem resolved til the new year version came out & it will start all over again. his son who was working in the IT department at wells fargo told him to remove norton & put on avg which i did. i think it was a lexmark issue as ran into that when upgrading that friend's computer to an intel dual core & the lexmark software would cause my flash drive to hang til i removed the lexmark usb cable from the computer. told afterwards when he eventually replaces the lexmark not to get another 1 but maybe a hp being his b\w hp laser does not cause issues.
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AfterDawn Addict
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24. July 2013 @ 12:20 |
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with the fan kicking up to high and blowing hot air out sounds like heatsink in stopped up and a good blow job, like DDP said, should take care of that.
My wife had a little Lexmark that always gave trouble. I threw it into the trash and gave her an HP. No problems after that..
There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading; The few who learn by observation;
The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves... |
