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Ethanol/Alcohol in gas, is it worth the price?
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AfterDawn Addict
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19. August 2012 @ 23:34 |
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I am keeping it simple so here we go!
Ethanol destroys machines and makes food, gas and cars cost more, alcohol based alt energy needs to die, anyone care to debunk that?
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.
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ddp
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19. August 2012 @ 23:54 |
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moved to correct forum.
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AfterDawn Addict
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19. August 2012 @ 23:56 |
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Originally posted by ddp:
moved to correct forum.
Sorry I am too use to an all in one off topic setup ><
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.
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Senior Member
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20. August 2012 @ 03:17 |
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your right to a point zippy.ethanol eats aluminum for breakfast.that having been said it has been proven to be a good fuel additive when used in moderation.keep in mind that most race cars except formula one run on alcohol.outside of the fact that it is corrosive to aluminum it has proven a viable additive.ive been a mechanic for almost forty years and see no end to this trend.
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AfterDawn Addict
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21. August 2012 @ 01:12 |
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Ford and Toyota Blast EPA for Forcing Ethanol Blends on Public
New proposal would allow up to 15 percent ethanol in fuel
Corn ethanol is dead, long live corn ethanol. That's the message that the United States Environmental Protection Agency administrator Lisa Jackson seemingly sent when her agency proposed allowing blends of up to 15 percent ethanol at the pump. The proposal comes just weeks after Congress repealed the $5.6B USD federal subsidy for corn ethanol.
I. E15: Killing Your Autos, One Engine at a Time
Automakers are outraged at the proposal. Ford Motor Company (F) and Toyota Motor Company (TYO:7203) led the coalition of the unwilling.
In letters to House Select Committee for Energy Independence and Global Warming's ranking Republican member, Rep. James Sensenbrenner (Milwaukee - Wisc.), the automakers rip the plan, which they say will likely void vehicle owners' warranties.
http://www.dailytech.com/Ford+and+Toyot...rticle22077.htm
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AfterDawn Addict
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21. August 2012 @ 09:45 |
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Originally posted by ireland:
Ford and Toyota Blast EPA for Forcing Ethanol Blends on Public
New proposal would allow up to 15 percent ethanol in fuel
Corn ethanol is dead, long live corn ethanol. That's the message that the United States Environmental Protection Agency administrator Lisa Jackson seemingly sent when her agency proposed allowing blends of up to 15 percent ethanol at the pump. The proposal comes just weeks after Congress repealed the $5.6B USD federal subsidy for corn ethanol.
I. E15: Killing Your Autos, One Engine at a Time
Automakers are outraged at the proposal. Ford Motor Company (F) and Toyota Motor Company (TYO:7203) led the coalition of the unwilling.
In letters to House Select Committee for Energy Independence and Global Warming's ranking Republican member, Rep. James Sensenbrenner (Milwaukee - Wisc.), the automakers rip the plan, which they say will likely void vehicle owners' warranties.
http://www.dailytech.com/Ford+and+Toyot...rticle22077.htm
Got anything showing how Brazilian cars deal with the ethanol?
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.
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Senior Member
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21. August 2012 @ 11:22 |
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i think you will find they all deal with it about equally.from a mechanics point of view none of us like it.it is corrosive to aluminum,and it rots rubber fuel lines.looking back at my first post it looks like i am in favor of it.not so.from what ive been able to gather they implemented it to help struggling corn growers more than anything.that having been said,the car companies are quite capable of both building and tuning cars to run on ethanol fuel.not a great example i know but my buddies sprint car produced 500 hp on strait gasoline and 615hp on stait alcohol.the real drawback with this stuff is in small 2stroke engines.depending on how much ethanol is blended with the gas it can cause real engine damage.again though,i dont see an end to ethanol blended gas.not when you consider that at a 10% blend,on a million gallons you save 100,000 gallons by adding ethanol.and you can bet the oil companies bought into this heavy.lol.
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AfterDawn Addict
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21. August 2012 @ 11:48 |
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Originally posted by aldan:
i think you will find they all deal with it about equally.from a mechanics point of view none of us like it.it is corrosive to aluminum,and it rots rubber fuel lines.looking back at my first post it looks like i am in favor of it.not so.from what ive been able to gather they implemented it to help struggling corn growers more than anything.that having been said,the car companies are quite capable of both building and tuning cars to run on ethanol fuel.not a great example i know but my buddies sprint car produced 500 hp on strait gasoline and 615hp on stait alcohol.the real drawback with this stuff is in small 2stroke engines.depending on how much ethanol is blended with the gas it can cause real engine damage.again though,i dont see an end to ethanol blended gas.not when you consider that at a 10% blend,on a million gallons you save 100,000 gallons by adding ethanol.and you can bet the oil companies bought into this heavy.lol.
Don't racing vehicles practically get rebuilt yearly?
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.
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Senior Member
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21. August 2012 @ 12:15 |
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yep,or sooner,tho its not because of the fuel so much as the way they are driven.ive seen rail dragsters and funny cars get rebuilt between races.only reason i used the example was to show hp increase over gas.on the indy car circuit it was also considered safer than gasoline.ever see a formula one flaming crash as compared to an indy car crash?but i digress,as i usually do.something about old age.we definitely need better alternative fuel technology.
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AfterDawn Addict
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21. August 2012 @ 12:31 |
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Originally posted by aldan:
yep,or sooner,tho its not because of the fuel so much as the way they are driven.ive seen rail dragsters and funny cars get rebuilt between races.only reason i used the example was to show hp increase over gas.on the indy car circuit it was also considered safer than gasoline.ever see a formula one flaming crash as compared to an indy car crash?but i digress,as i usually do.something about old age.we definitely need better alternative fuel technology.
I thought as much, I wonder if the power boost is worth the extra maintenance for them?
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.
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Senior Member
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21. August 2012 @ 17:10 |
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not to my way of thinking.firstly the engine has to be designed to make the best use of the ethanol.secondly there is not enough ethanol in the fuel to make that kind of difference.i really dont see any performance advantage to ethanol blends and i certainly dont see a maintenance advantage.again it really looks like something the government cooked up under the guise of envioronmental responsibility so some hard up corn farmers can sell their crop.
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AfterDawn Addict
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21. August 2012 @ 19:04 |
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Originally posted by aldan:
not to my way of thinking.firstly the engine has to be designed to make the best use of the ethanol.secondly there is not enough ethanol in the fuel to make that kind of difference.i really dont see any performance advantage to ethanol blends and i certainly dont see a maintenance advantage.again it really looks like something the government cooked up under the guise of envioronmental responsibility so some hard up corn farmers can sell their crop.
If we move to E85 there is, and even if you change out the rubber parts the spark plugs are still SOL....
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.
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Senior Member
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22. August 2012 @ 01:56 |
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my bitch with this is that the older vehicles will take the brunt of the damage.if i was a conspiracy theorist i would think we are being pushed into consumerism.your older vehicle wont work well so buy a new one that can utilize the technology.soab,i think i could buy that theory.lol.
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Senior Member
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22. August 2012 @ 06:17 |
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i hate a chat with a m8 on fb about fuel.m8 works as a qualified panelbeater and does his own cars up.he said ethanol blend or high octane will give me more milage,he also said ethanol blend is safe to use.I personally havnt tryed the ethanol blend as im scared it will stuff my car up.I also noticed the standard high octane fuel at pumps are being replaced by ethanol blended and vortex.heard mixed reviews about vortex aswell.I currently drive a 1993 corolla and dont plan to upgrade to a new model car anytime soon.
as for the government they say a lot of things are safe when it has been clearly shown they are not,doesnt matter if its fuel,food additives,medications or anything else.
custom built gaming pc from early 2010,ps2 with 15 games all original,ps3 500gbs with 5 games all original,yamaha amp and 5.1channel surround sound speakers,46inch sony lcd smart tv.
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AfterDawn Addict
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22. August 2012 @ 09:53 |
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Originally posted by xboxdvl2:
i hate a chat with a m8 on fb about fuel.m8 works as a qualified panelbeater and does his own cars up.he said ethanol blend or high octane will give me more milage,he also said ethanol blend is safe to use.I personally havnt tryed the ethanol blend as im scared it will stuff my car up.I also noticed the standard high octane fuel at pumps are being replaced by ethanol blended and vortex.heard mixed reviews about vortex aswell.I currently drive a 1993 corolla and dont plan to upgrade to a new model car anytime soon.
as for the government they say a lot of things are safe when it has been clearly shown they are not,doesnt matter if its fuel,food additives,medications or anything else.
Half the mechanics and car dealers I have talked to have said that the current blends reduce gas mileage in most vehicles. Now the newer higher mixes of 10+ might not but still it eats engines.
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. August 2012 @ 09:55
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Senior Member
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22. August 2012 @ 13:09 |
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well you know if the moonshiners were given a break maybe the corn farmers would have a new market for their corn and the government wouldnt be ramming ethanol blended fuel down our throats.ok,that was a joke.lol.
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AfterDawn Addict
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22. September 2012 @ 19:06 |
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EPA Mandates Four-Gallon Minimum at E15 Gas Pumps
For a textbook lesson on the absurdity of the regulatory rabbit hole the Obama administration has created, look no further than the EPA. Of course, that?s an obvious statement, but when the likes of Mother Jones are even second-guessing their latest shenanigans, it?s reached a new level.
The newest bit of red tape comes in the form of requiring a four-gallon minimum purchase from consumers already feeling pain at the pump. While it would be easy to put the blame solely on the EPA?s shoulders, diving into the weeds shows that there's plenty to go around.
The mandate itself only applies to gas stations that sell so-called E15 fuel to consumers. Such fuel is ?a blend of 85% gasoline and 15% ethanol,? hence the 'E15' moniker. Traditionally, consumers have used E10 fuel, which is 90% gasoline and 10% ethanol.
The rise of E15 usage has been perpetuated by the ethanol lobby and given credence by the ever-flawed Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) measure passed 5 years ago. Requiring greater use of ethanol is a continuation of government kowtowing to ethanol supporters at the taxpayers? expense. This time it?s coming through pain at the pump instead of a check to Uncle Sam. And the flaws are apparent.
For starters, the fuel only works in cars manufactured after 2001. That presents enough problems in and of itself for many Americans, but it gets worse. Not only does it relegate decades? worth of automobiles to the garage, E15 is also not compatible with many non-automobiles like boats and lawnmowers.
The problem is further exacerbated for retailers selling the fuel. Most gas station owners have no desire to install new E15-only pumps and have instead opted for 'blender pumps,' which mix the gasoline and ethanol based on the purchaser's selection.
These blender pumps are full of residue, to the tune of 1/3 a gallon for every gallon pumped. So if John Doe comes along next with a lawnmower needing a single gallon of E10 and the customer before him pumped E15, he could be in for more fireworks than usual while cutting grass.
Instead of solving the problem at its root by doing away with the Renewable Fuel Standards and letting market forces dictate what fuel is available, the merry band of bureaucrats at the EPA issued a mandate that any consumer buying gas at an E15 vendor, regardless of their individual need, must purchase four gallons or more. The idea here is that those purchases to the tune of four gallons and upwards renders the residual fuel amount too small to do damage.
Putting aside the fact that many of the devices not compatible with E15, such as lawnmowers and chainsaws, require nowhere near four gallons of gasoline, a mandate designed to prop up increased usage of ethanol comes at the expense of Americans? wallets and the very environment EPA claims to protect.
Multiple studies have documented that ethanol?s negative impact on the environment far outpaces that of gasoline. The policy is a no-win scenario, and government?s backing of ethanol is an issue that both sides of the political spectrum can come to a consensus on.
Environmental and fiscal factors considered, it is clear that the Renewable Fuel Standards must be amended to take a rational, common-sense approach to encouraging use of renewables without negatively impacting the economy. Rather than issue mandates that cost taxpayers and subsidize an industry that cannot stand on its own two feet, the EPA should consider actually using its platform to advocate the 'all of the above' approach Obama claims to support.
After all, when left-wingers are starting to poke holes in an Obama administration policy, it?s clear that something has to give.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government...-Fuel-Standards
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AfterDawn Addict
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23. September 2012 @ 00:54 |
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I'd kill both oil and ethanol subsidies and force 4$ a gal price point on non ethanol and 2$(taxes included) on 10% or greater ethanol and desial for commercial use.
Lets see how long ethanol lasts then. /lulz
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.
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ps355528
Senior Member
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23. September 2012 @ 10:51 |
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There are two mechanisms that occur with ethanol. Both mechanisms are a result of the hydroscopic property of ethanol, meaning it absorbs water. The more ethanol in the fuel, the more water there will be in the fuel tank. Water not only causes the tank to corrode, it also causes the corrosion particles to clog fuel filters, fuel systems, and damage engine components. The corrosion rate can be accelerated under a number of conditions if other contaminating metals are present such as copper which may be picked up from brass fittings or as a low level contaminant in the aluminum alloy. Chloride, which is a chemical found in salt water, will also accelerate corrosion. In the long term, corrosion can perforate the aluminum to produce leaks that would cause fuel to spill into the bilge and end up in the environment. In the worse case it could cause a fire and/or explosion hazard. Boat fuel tanks are often located under the deck next to the engine where the operator might not be aware of a leak until it was too late.
The second mechanism that can occurs with the increased use of ethanol based fuel in aluminum tanks is galvanic corrosion. Gasoline fuel is not conductive, but the presence of ethanol or ethanol and water will conduct electricity. The galvanic process that occurs to aluminum trim tabs, stern drives, shaft couplings, etc. will occur within the aluminum fuel tank. Boat builders are able to protect exterior aluminum boat equipment with sacrificial anodes known as zincs. Sacrificial anodes are not a feasible option for the interior of a fuel tank
again.. what about Brazil where the main vehicle in use was (and still is) the air cooled aluminium engined Volkswagon Beetle run exclusively on 95% and higher ethanol for decades!! .. seriously guys you need to break your addiction to fossil fuels and your slavish reliance on big oil
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AfterDawn Addict
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23. September 2012 @ 14:09 |
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Originally posted by ps355528:
There are two mechanisms that occur with ethanol. Both mechanisms are a result of the hydroscopic property of ethanol, meaning it absorbs water. The more ethanol in the fuel, the more water there will be in the fuel tank. Water not only causes the tank to corrode, it also causes the corrosion particles to clog fuel filters, fuel systems, and damage engine components. The corrosion rate can be accelerated under a number of conditions if other contaminating metals are present such as copper which may be picked up from brass fittings or as a low level contaminant in the aluminum alloy. Chloride, which is a chemical found in salt water, will also accelerate corrosion. In the long term, corrosion can perforate the aluminum to produce leaks that would cause fuel to spill into the bilge and end up in the environment. In the worse case it could cause a fire and/or explosion hazard. Boat fuel tanks are often located under the deck next to the engine where the operator might not be aware of a leak until it was too late.
The second mechanism that can occurs with the increased use of ethanol based fuel in aluminum tanks is galvanic corrosion. Gasoline fuel is not conductive, but the presence of ethanol or ethanol and water will conduct electricity. The galvanic process that occurs to aluminum trim tabs, stern drives, shaft couplings, etc. will occur within the aluminum fuel tank. Boat builders are able to protect exterior aluminum boat equipment with sacrificial anodes known as zincs. Sacrificial anodes are not a feasible option for the interior of a fuel tank
again.. what about Brazil where the main vehicle in use was (and still is) the air cooled aluminium engined Volkswagon Beetle run exclusively on 95% and higher ethanol for decades!! .. seriously guys you need to break your addiction to fossil fuels and your slavish reliance on big oil
I know but flex flue systems negate most of it. So its great if you have a vehicle made for it.
Also the way we get ethanol is insane, we should have never focused on corn.
The best way I can see to fix things is remove all fuel/oil subsidies, and I mean all of them.
Then pay them 30% of the price(set by world averages) of each barrel refined in the US.
Then enforce strict price control.You fuck up transportation the whole economy suffers, so no more of this price shifting based on speculation BS.
Open up normal forms of oil production that ensure minimal damage to the environment.(you want to run a pipe or do ocean drilling then you focus on making sure shit dose not fail or spill,if it dose not only do you have to clean it up but are fined a billion a day). Fraking is a lost cause, get over it unless you can remove the chemicals and not damage water tables..
Finally I would offer 100 billion or 50% of the unit cost up to 5 years to whoever can build a vehicle, offers basic crash protection, trunk space and a minimum 4 person capacity that dose 70MPG or greater in city driving.
Its a shame gov is to busy giving all their money to out dated technology and business models...
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.
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Staff Member
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24. September 2012 @ 16:19 |
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Let's try to keep the political rhetoric to a minimum here. I don't put a moderator hat on very often these days but them's the rules. I'm not saying you can't bitch about the government, but let's try to avoid stuff that's likely to turn into a flamewar about a particular elected official who is up for re-election right now.
Having said that, Ireland is entirely correct that US ethanol regulations are, and have always been, intended as a subsidy for corn producers. Specifically they're a misguided attempt to prop up small farming operations which have been in trouble for most of my life. And I say that as someone who lives in one of the top corn producing states. This is almost entirely the result of pandering to legislators and lobbyists from states like Iowa (where I live) who are behind this nonsense.
The fact is it makes no sense, either in terms of engineering or long term economics, to focus on a future based on propping up a business because of nostalgia. Normally when I'm making that argument I'm referring to the entertainment industry or some big publisher but it applies equally to agriculture. Ultimately it's not family farms that reap the benefit from corn subsidies. It's the big corporations that process all that corn to produce things like ethanol and high fructose corn syrup.
The natural development of new fuels is an evolution from those which are less efficient to alternatives which are more efficient. In simple terms efficiency is primarily a matter of the ratio of hydrogen to carbon. The higher that ratio is (ie more hydrogen), the more efficiently it burns. In addition to the overall financial benefit it also naturally improves the environmental impact since less carbon in the fuel means lower harmful emissions.
There's no question petroleum based fuel is on its way out on some as of yet unknown timetable. The problem, besides all the distractions of unworkable solutions like corn-based ethanol, is the obsession with figuring out the ideal end game instead of working out the natural next step to take us in the right direction. You can't just say, "here's the perfect technology so that's what we're going to develop next."
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ps355528
Senior Member
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25. September 2012 @ 20:57 |
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We have had electricity based transport systems for over a century (the first electric traction units actually predate the internal combustion engine by a few years) The problem has always been the size and weight of the batteries. Again there is a lack of thinking outside the box in this instance.. Why not use induction loops buried under the road with batteries carried only for small roads and local/rural use? Every vehicle can be chipped and "fuel" bought up front in the same way as liquid fuels are now.
Of course the political problems crop up.. big oil owns government so will ensure their profits come before any other common sense considerations. Who cares about the environment or the future when there is another billion $ for a billionaire to be had? On a crash course to doom and nobody seems to have the foresight to stop these greedy corrupt destroyers of the future.. An Indian once said "when the last fish has been caught, the last tree cut down, the last bison killed and the last river poisoned, then (the white) man will discover you can't eat money"
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AfterDawn Addict
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25. September 2012 @ 20:59 |
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Originally posted by ps355528:
We have had electricity based transport systems for over a century (the first electric traction units actually predate the internal combustion engine by a few years) The problem has always been the size and weight of the batteries. Again there is a lack of thinking outside the box in this instance.. Why not use induction loops buried under the road with batteries carried only for small roads and local/rural use? Every vehicle can be chipped and "fuel" bought up front in the same way as liquid fuels are now.
Of course the political problems crop up.. big oil owns government so will ensure their profits come before any other common sense considerations. Who cares about the environment or the future when there is another billion $ for a billionaire to be had? On a crash course to doom and nobody seems to have the foresight to stop these greedy corrupt destroyers of the future.. An Indian once said "when the last fish has been caught, the last tree cut down, the last bison killed and the last river poisoned, then (the white) man will discover you can't eat money"
Politics destroys humanity >>
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.
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ddp
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25. September 2012 @ 21:51 |
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humanity creates politics. always have & always will.
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Staff Member
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26. September 2012 @ 07:33 |
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Originally posted by ddp:
humanity creates politics. always have & always will.
We have met the enemy and he is us.
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