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Glitch on a successful burn using Nero 6
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labtec99
Junior Member
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29. April 2010 @ 08:56 |
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I have been using some Memorex brand CD-R while copying on the fly from another CD compilation.
I placed the source CD in the DVD/CD drive, and I then clicked on Nero SmartStart icon, I then copied on the fly at 8 speed, it took around 8 minutes and the burn was successful, however the disc when played on more than one stand alone CD player has a glitch often a small jump on track 2, but also when the glitch was heard it was as if it went back to track one for a split second then continued with track 2.
I have an 80GB hard drive of which I had 6GB free when I copied that disc, as it happens it has occurred on 2 Memorex discs, I have now deleted some folders and have around 10GB free, and also I have just performed a defrag of the 80GB hard drive as I had read that defragging was a good option when having problems with copying discs.
I have copied some mp3'S to CD since, it was only a 45 min compilation this time, but no glitches throughout the disc, and like I say I have since defragged.
Apart from an impending writer failure would you say that because I needed a defrag would this be a cause for these burning errors?
Or maybe it was the source drive that was the problem and that it wasn't being read properly.
I thought that if there was an error of any kind that Nero would have reported it, but all Nero did was to report a successful burn when quite clearly it wasn't.
Any help on this much appreciated.
PS
I may try some burns by creating an image instead of on the fly, that way if the problem persists then that will point to the problem being burner related.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 29. April 2010 @ 08:58
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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29. April 2010 @ 10:05 |
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The problem is not fragmented files...it's recording "on the fly," which means that the data from one disc are passing through the computer to the recording drive with minimal or no correction. It is much safer to rip the files to the hard drive and engage full error correction, then record from the hard drive to the copy disc. On-the-fly recording requires that both the play and the record drives work in perfect harmony, and that is not a guarantee. The hard drive operates at much faster speeds and is more forgiving. Defragging helps when recording to the hard drive, but is of no use for on-the-fly recordings.
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labtec99
Junior Member
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29. April 2010 @ 10:19 |
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Originally posted by JoeRyan:
The problem is not fragmented files...it's recording "on the fly," which means that the data from one disc are passing through the computer to the recording drive with minimal or no correction. It is much safer to rip the files to the hard drive and engage full error correction, then record from the hard drive to the copy disc. On-the-fly recording requires that both the play and the record drives work in perfect harmony, and that is not a guarantee. The hard drive operates at much faster speeds and is more forgiving. Defragging helps when recording to the hard drive, but is of no use for on-the-fly recordings.
I understand, and thanks for your message.
I wonder why it's intermittent though as some of the on-the-fly burns are fine.
As I say I am going to try the image burning instead of on-the-fly, and will see if that helps, which is what you had said anyway, fingers crossed, and I will report back here my findings.
By the way, do you think it could be burner related though?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 29. April 2010 @ 10:21
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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29. April 2010 @ 17:18 |
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It could be either the playback drive or the burner. The only way to tell would be to test each one to see if the transfer rate is uniform. I never record anything on-the-fly because I prefer to use as much error correction as possible with as little jitter as possible, and the clock in the computer watching the hard drive is more reliable than spinning discs. I think you'll find that recording to the hard drive will almost alwasy be successful while recording straight from disc to disc is unpredictable.
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labtec99
Junior Member
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29. April 2010 @ 18:03 |
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Originally posted by JoeRyan:
It could be either the playback drive or the burner. The only way to tell would be to test each one to see if the transfer rate is uniform.
How do I do this test? and what from the result would tell me if it's the Playback Drive or Burner?
Originally posted by JoeRyan:
I think you'll find that recording to the hard drive will almost always be successful while recording straight from disc to disc is unpredictable.
But even when I record on-the-fly disc to disc Nero often says Successful Burn even though after playing the recorded disc it clearly isn't.
To-night I told Nero the source and the record drive to be the same, so after I hit on burn it wrote the files from the CD to create an image, then when it completed the image it asked for a CD-R, then I inserted that and it copied, but one thing I am confused about is when I exited Nero it didn't ask me if I wanted to save the image I had just created, would Nero automatically have deleted the image, and it was me that should have clicked on the save image option, that is if there is one.
What I'm concerned about is the image may still be sitting on my hard drive somewhere filling up space.
Would I be right that the image would normally be here.....C:\My Documents\TempImage.nrg unless I were to change it of course? and it's not there now as I didn't save it nor was I asked to by Nero.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 29. April 2010 @ 18:25
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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30. April 2010 @ 09:21 |
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1) Nero can provide some very basic testing using the Nero tools for digital extraction and data transfer. The drive with the lower score may be the problem (or it could also be interference from other running programs that temporarily take up memory, such as anti-virus software).
2) A "successful" burn means that data transferred and the memory buffer did not run out of data. It tells you nothing of the linking of files or the stability of a laser diode. It is merely Nero's way of telling you that the few things it can monitor showed no problems.
3) The image that Nero makes is stored in a temporary file. The image is still sitting your hard drive taking up space, but it is the same kind of space taken up by files you have deleted and erased from your junk folder--they are there but have no addresses. That means that if you need space, they are overwritten. If you defrag your drive, they may also be overwritten. There is no need to worry about them. (They could be recovered by forensics software that recreates temporary addresses--something that has foiled many criminals who thought they had eliminated all evidence of files by erasing them.)
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labtec99
Junior Member
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30. April 2010 @ 12:20 |
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Is it under Nero Toolkit -> Nero CD/DVD Speed or Nero Drive Speed?
Under Nero Info Tool it shows the following for my 2 drives
DVD Rom x48 read speed, I notice there is a drop down ability to change this, should I lower this? would that do any good. or would that just limit me to whatever it's set at when I am coping stuff?
DVD Writer is shows as 48 read and write speed, all this as I say on the Nero Info Tool.
I wonder why Nero doesn't give the option to save the image after the burning has been completed? I did notice there was a save project, but nothing happened when I clicked on it.
However the temp file shows file size as zero, so the deletion was successful when I hit exit.
Last thing I wanted to ask was I have 2 oldish CD portable players, one being a Panasonic CD player, the other being an CD/MP3,WMA player, but I tried playing some discs I have recently burned, and although they play fine on the large stand alone CD player they have ticking noises and skipping when played on the portables. Is this because the older players just can't cope with the way these CD-Rs are being written, thought it may be the write speed, but these were written at 8 speed, so surely it's not that.
I have tried cleaning these portables but the discs still sound the same.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 30. April 2010 @ 12:29
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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30. April 2010 @ 17:05 |
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Nero CD/DVD Speed allows you to see data transfers in the benchmark tab. The Create Disc tab writes a disc with dummy data in order for you to determine how good the writing was when you examine the disc under the Disc Quality tab. (You'll waste one disc in the process, but it may give you an idea of which drive is better than the other if you use the same disc.)
DVD-ROM speed at 48X is OK. Slowing it down will lengthen your drive's life, but it won't improve quality. Writing a 48X/52X at 24X or 32X will also increase a drive's life span, and it may improve quality at the same time.
Nero does allow you to save an image if you use the burning ROM method. "Copy Disc" is just a fast way to do it to save time without leaving the image on your hard drive. (Even when the temporary image is "deleted," it's still there for awhile without any address, which means it can be overwritten at any time.)
Older portable CD players frequently have problems with CD-Rs. Kodak and Panasonic once worked on the problem of Panasonic single-beam CD players' not being able to read the very early Kodak 6X CD-Rs. We never found out why they didn't work together--Kodak went to 8X; Panasonic sourced different diodes, and the problem "went away" except for anyone who still had the old players. The engineers never found the problem and didn't want to waste time trying to figure it out. Sometimes progress is a good thing.
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labtec99
Junior Member
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30. April 2010 @ 17:56 |
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Not sure what you mean by using the burning rom method?
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labtec99
Junior Member
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30. April 2010 @ 19:05 |
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I performed a CD/DVD speed test on the writer drive using a blank CD-R, please let me know if this looks fine, I post the image below.
And here is the image for the DVD Rom drive using a CD Audio disc, hopefully I have performed these correctly, as I had a blank CD-R for the writer test, and an audio CD for the DVD/CD Rom drive, was I correct doing it like this?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 30. April 2010 @ 19:22
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Paula_X
Suspended permanently
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30. April 2010 @ 20:26 |
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8x is a bit on the slow side for a cd-r .. I use 16 or 24..
the scan shows a problem either with the burner (not exactly a great one is it?) or the disk. Waste another then scan it over in the burner after as well.. There are a few little splutters on the samsung dvd-rom scan.. not enough to make any likely problem in a standalone player.. but sammys are some of the best disk readers out there so it isn't a valid test.
And yes.. you are right with your guess that a lot of portable and standalone players don't like some cd-r disks.. that varies by disk brand.. best I ever found were gigatain brand.. played on players which returned "no disk" for everything else.. including verbs.
Just so you know.. I have a rather expensive nakamichi cd player.. it will skip (glitch) like yours at precisely 42 seconds of track 1 on any pressed cd, but cd-r play just fine all the way through.. all except maxell or tdk.. which show "no disk".. even same manufacturer code cmc disks as those but white datawrite are great.. and memorex and even asda brand. go figure :)
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labtec99
Junior Member
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1. May 2010 @ 05:38 |
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Originally posted by Paula_X:
8x is a bit on the slow side for a cd-r .. I use 16 or 24..
Well I was starting to use 8 speed to lessen the errors that's all.
Originally posted by Paula_X:
the scan shows a problem either with the burner (not exactly a great one is it?) or the disk. Waste another then scan it over in the burner after as well.. There are a few little splutters on the samsung dvd-rom scan.. not enough to make any likely problem in a standalone player.. but sammys are some of the best disk readers out there so it isn't a valid test.
What do you mean not exactly a great one? and not sure what you meant by waste another one, I never wasted anything the first time as they were only tests with nothing being written! and the Samsung drive was only reading the audio for that test, so I am a bit confused.
Originally posted by Paula_X:
and memorex and even asda brand. go figure :)
Well I am having trouble with memorex on the portables.
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ddp
Moderator
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1. May 2010 @ 14:26 |
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memorex are garbage so try a better quality make of disks. also see if there is an updated firmware for your dvd burner. don't use the computer while it is burning.
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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3. May 2010 @ 09:40 |
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Memorex CD-Rs are chiefly CMC, but they also use Ritek, Prodisc, and sometimes MBI (chiefly in Europe). So if Memorex is garbage, so are +80% of the CD-R discs manufactured and sold.
The proper way to test using Nero is to record a disc with the dummy data Nero creates (what Paula_X meant by "wasting a disc"), then checking the playback of those data with the TDK that did the recording and the Samsung/Toshiba CD-ROM drive to check for anamolies. The three dips in the TDK response are three stages in the drive's changing speed. There are different ways drives change speeds (CAV or constant angular velocity in this case), and the dips are not a concern as long as the playback is OK.
The problem with the way that you tested is that the TDK test did not record a disc; all you really tested was the drive's simulated ability to track the disc at the different speed rating. You would have to make a true recording with expected data (Nero creates a precise sequence of hexadecimal files) to determine how well those data are read back. There are some uneven waves in the playback of the CD-ROM; but since that is a recorded disc, there is a question of the quality of the recording, the state of the medium itself, and the integrity of the files on the disc. In testing, one must eliminate all variables except those under test in order to get an accurate reading. That's why it's necessary to get a predictable recording from the Nero-generated data.
There are a number of reasons why discs with the same MID code can behave differently. They may be from different stampers (check with the production code), the stampers may be in different stages of their lives (new, refinished, or near end-of-life). The recordings may be different in that one is track-at-once with poorly formed links or disc-at-once with uniform power applied across the disc. The recording speeds may also be different, and that is a factor in the final result. In general, today's CD-Rs are 52X using phthalocyanine dye, which means a recording speed of 24X-32X is a good choice for a safe recording on such discs. Never record on-the-fly; always rip to the hard drive in order to incorporate more error correction. Record disc-at-once rather than track-at-once in order to avoid link problems or inconsistencies created by fluctuating power to the laser diode. Even with these steps, some recorded CD-Rs may not play properly on some CD players, particularly older players. In those cases, choose a different disc manufacturer (not brand because so many brands use identical manufacturers) to see if different groove geometry from a different stamper makes a difference. Then stick with that manufacturer to get discs to play on that particular player. Optical geometry is one of the most difficult aspects to master in disc production, and it is often the cause of problems that are otherwise unidentified.
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labtec99
Junior Member
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3. May 2010 @ 10:27 |
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Originally posted by JoeRyan:
Memorex
The proper way to test using Nero is to record a disc with the dummy data Nero creates
I am confused when you say "Dummy Data" how do I record this and where do I find it?
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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3. May 2010 @ 12:27 |
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In Nero CD/DVD Speed select [b]Extra/b] and go to Advanced DAE Quality Test (DAE=Digital Audio Extraction). In that section there is a choice to Create Test CD. Nero will generate a series of hexadecimal number files ("dummy data" that is of little use to a consumer but which Nero expects to see in exactly the proper order on playback). Make the test disc, and then use CD/DVD Speed to examine the transfer rates and the record quality of the disc to see where the weaker link is between the two drives. The Nero web site has explanations in the user guides for these products. Read them through to get an idea of how to interpret the test results. Remember that these are very basic tools (CD-R test analyzers start at $5000 and run to a quarter million dollars for the best ones), but comparative analyses with a lot of experience can be helpful in isolating and identifying even subtle problems.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 3. May 2010 @ 14:54
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labtec99
Junior Member
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3. May 2010 @ 18:05 |
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I have bought myself a new writer, but what I am trying to fix now is the other DVD-ROM, as it opens and closes for no reason, and I don't have a virus.
Would you happen to know what the disconnect option does in the Device Manager - DVD-ROM Properties - Settings - Disconnect.
It was ticked previously, so I thought to untick the disconnect option to see if this has any affect on the drawer problem.
Now that I am not using the on-the-fly option any longer I don't need the other DVD-ROM on my tower, but as I don't have a cover to fill the space then I need to keep the DVD-ROM drive in place, or perhaps these covers that fill empty drive slots are available to purchase but I am not sure if they are.
Any ideas on all that.
Thanks
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 3. May 2010 @ 18:07
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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4. May 2010 @ 11:59 |
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"Disconnect" merely means the computer won't access the drive and will ignore it. Leave the drive connected and the disconnect setting as connected. If the drawer still opens at will (it does this when it receives a command from the computer through the IDE cable), then leave it where it is and unplug the power cable or the IDE cable or both to isolate the drive. Leave it in place to keep the slot filled.
However, you can always use the DVD-ROM drive as a playback unit or one to transfer data from DVDs to the hard drive so that the TDK drive only does half the work. That will lengthen the life of the motor/bearings/diode in the burner. There is no reason to abandon the DVD-ROM drive completely.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 4. May 2010 @ 12:00
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labtec99
Junior Member
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4. May 2010 @ 12:24 |
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Originally posted by JoeRyan:
"Disconnect" merely means the computer won't access the drive and will ignore it. Leave the drive connected and the disconnect setting as connected. If the drawer still opens at will (it does this when it receives a command from the computer through the IDE cable), then leave it where it is and unplug the power cable or the IDE cable or both to isolate the drive. Leave it in place to keep the slot filled.
However, you can always use the DVD-ROM drive as a playback unit or one to transfer data from DVDs to the hard drive so that the TDK drive only does half the work. That will lengthen the life of the motor/bearings/diode in the burner. There is no reason to abandon the DVD-ROM drive completely.
What confuses me though is the disconnect button in the device manager had the radio button already ticked and the system recognised it then, I would have thought by removing the tick would therefore enable the drive, really confused now.
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labtec99
Junior Member
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5. May 2010 @ 12:00 |
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What is the normal for the disconnect button for the CD-ROM and or DVD-WRITER in system device manager? should it be ticked or unticked? because at the moment both ROM drives have a tick at the disconnect.
This is what I found regarding the option in question.
--disconnect
Use this option if you do not wish to have the specified DVD/CD-ROM drive automatically connected to the virtual machine on its start.
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