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What's up with Memorex?
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Senior Member
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4. September 2006 @ 10:53 |
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Joe,
Originally posted by JoeRyan:
But attacking a particular brand without technical ammunition or by making false claims, as some do, is neither correct nor helpful
Please, U dont need all that technical stuff to figure out what media is good and what media is not, all u need is experience, And in my experience(and tons of others) with burning CMC disks,it is a crapshoot, like tons of others people would say.
BTW i would say that more than half of the questoins in the Nero forum,(and media forum) are because of people using CMC disks, and other crap disks.
Oh look heres another Nero burning log that failed, Oh my god look, im soooooo suprised they are using Disc Manufacturer: CMC MA - G. this happening is so unlikely, NOT. LOL
"When I look at the smiles on all the childrens faces, I just know theyre about to jab me with something."- Homer Simpson This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 4. September 2006 @ 10:54
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Moderator
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4. September 2006 @ 11:10 |
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indeed, i've also said that at least once before; i myself have dissected literally 1000s of the logfile in that forum, and if i got a penny for every log that was due to 'questionable' media....i'll let you lot book an armoured car to deliver the coins to me...
Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules *** |
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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5. September 2006 @ 05:40 |
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"Please, U dont need all that technical stuff to figure out what media is good and what media is not, all u need is experience, And in my experience(and tons of others) with burning CMC disks,it is a crapshoot, like tons of others people would say."
This statement is so blatantly false it is astonishing anyone in the 21st century can still believe it! This thinking is what led to witch doctors, belief in a flat earth, and attempts to fly with wings attached to one's arms.
It is ONLY WITH TECHNICAL ANALYSIS that one can determine what media ARE good and what are not. Experience only tells you what works and what does not. There is a big difference between the two, a difference that few on this website understand.
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Moderator
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5. September 2006 @ 06:14 |
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i may not have access to incredibly expensive machinery or be overly scientific with my methods/knoowledge but my own bad experiences with 'less-than-decent' media was enough reason for me to use better media. For instance my worst experiences were with literally 500 of the things, they (mostly) burnt perfectly and played perfectly for quite a while. Then i started having loads of these previously good discs skip on playback; CRC scans showed utterly atrocious problems. All this prompted me to learn a bit about PIF scanning and some of the results were as bad as the CRC scans. Here's some extracts from a thread i started -
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_jump.cfm/193298/1033997 (first post only), then a few choice posts further thru the thread -
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_jump.cfm/193298/1038963
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_jump.cfm/193298/1042454
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_jump.cfm/193298/1067995
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_jump.cfm/193298/1351669
Eventually enough was enough, i got so sick of seeing those garish orange disks in my collection and wasting time thinking about what i was gonna do about them that I spent literally days upon days recopying from the Bulkpaq's (to be fair i was able to get data off probably a couple dozen (out of about 500)); but mostly i had to recopy from my original discs due to unbelievable amounts of errors. Let's just say the time and annoyance of recopying was well worth getting rid of failing discs that i'd put up with for far too long. Now NONE of my discs fail on me, other than a cheapy Optodisc that i posted about a few days ago. Luckily i only have up to 50 of those in my collection (they were a gift) so if even 1 more fails on me it won't take long to rid my collection of those. A fair few of the Bulkpaq's did eventually prove to burn properly - in my wood burner which i'm led to believe reaches 500 degrees.
So you see, my own experiences were enough to put me off cheapy media, and dissecting 1000s of logfiles (i kid you not) is as technical as it needs to be, quite frankly. And as i seem to find myself saying lately - Quote:
people such as myself are not doing our readers a disservice by recommending Verbatim and/or TY media. Whether or not discs are bad quality or just not well supported enough is moot at the end of the day, all that we care about is whether or not people are able to burn and keep burning, and whether their data is sufficiently well protected
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I don't know what else to say, apart from i won't recommend people waste good money on discs that might work, when i can recommend discs that pretty much just work ..for the majority anyways.
Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 5. September 2006 @ 06:34
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Senior Member
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5. September 2006 @ 10:00 |
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Joe,
all the proof u need or anybody else is in the Nero forum, oh and the Media forum(Post ur Bad Media Experience),(half if not more or CMC disks) just look, thats all u need.
Quote:
Experience only tells you what works and what does not.
exactly, i agree, and what does not Work,
, Disk Manufactor ID: CMC Mag, and a bunch of other crap media
Originally posted by creaky:
So you see, my own experiences were enough to put me off cheapy media, and dissecting 1000s of logfiles (i kid you not) is as technical as it needs to be, quite frankly.
Again just check the Nero forums for proof with your own eyes.
"When I look at the smiles on all the childrens faces, I just know theyre about to jab me with something."- Homer Simpson
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Junior Member
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5. September 2006 @ 10:15 |
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In all my experience in backing up my movies, I've only had problems with not updating my firmware. That and a bad electrical outlet. Don't ask. Memorex has always worked for me, but the one time I did have a problem it was with a Verbatim disc when I backed up Malcolm X for a long trip. I watched the first part and then the second part just went to crap. I'd look for the thread itself, but I don't really have the time so I'll just ask here. What's the program I can get that will tell me if there are errors on my discs? I don't have many problems, but I'd like to check a few to get familiar with the program itself. Thanks!
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Moderator
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5. September 2006 @ 10:17 |
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Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***
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Junior Member
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5. September 2006 @ 10:21 |
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Thank you much. I knew someone would come through for me.
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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5. September 2006 @ 15:51 |
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Nero is a good way to tell if the drive on which its running sees errors with the disc on it. It cannot tell you if the disc is good or bad, only if it sees errors. Those errors can be due to a bad disc, a bad recording (incompatibility), damage to the disc, or flaws in data transfer. Right now I'm sending a CD-RW to a CATs tester to determine all the written parameters, then to an electron scanning microscope to determine physical problems. Nero rates the disc a "97" on the Lite-on SOHW-1635 on which it was written: 23 C1 errors (average 0.28) and no C2 errors. K-probe found 22 C1 errors at a rate of 0.22). A Plextor PX-716 found over a million C1 errors and 572 C2 errors, with no uncorrectables. A PX-760 found just about a thousand C1 errors and no C2 errors. Is it a good burn or a bad burn? Only the CATs can tell. If I read the anecdotal evidence on the Nero forum, I still could not tell. (Even if a million people draw the wrong conclusion, that does not make it correct. The Nero forum is an indication of disc compatibility problems as much as anything else. It proves nothing else.)
Creaky--do you know if the Bulkpaq discs were A-grade or B-grade? CMC is notorious for selling off B-grade stock rather carelessly, and that damages their reputation. Others are more careful. Kodak and Mitsui were the only factories who destroyed B-stock that I know of, and both are now out of the disc manufacturing business. The recognizable brand names do not buy B-stock from anyone. (I have noted that many moderators and responders have anti-CMC signatures. Isn't that a form of bias that discredits the balance of advice? Just wondering.)
Recommending discs that almost always work is great. Mentioning brands that can be avoided for chronic incompatibility issues is also fair. Branding incompatible discs as garbage is inaccurate, and deriding those who have successfully used "incompatible" discs is offensive. All I'm trying to do is bring some technical rationale to the table and promote a level of fairness and accuracy.
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Moderator
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5. September 2006 @ 22:45 |
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Joe - i can't remember what MID codes or grade the discs were (they weren't CMC so my examples aren't specifically aimed at them, i'm merely pointing out my reasoning for being anti-'less than decent discs'). My examples are still valid and they are still as technical as they need to be, remember, i keep saying we are not (for example) cdfreaks website, we just try to get people burning consistently (without costing them any money they needn't be spending - very important to our posters who could in fact be classes as our customers). So the only people losing out are the companies who make 'less than decent/reliable' discs. As to accuracy i'm all for the average joe (forgive the unintentional pun) using stuff that just pretty much works
Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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6. September 2006 @ 05:13 |
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Creaky,
"Less than decent" implies a quality problem. An incompatible disc may or may not be less than decent--there is no way to tell unless one uses test equipment to produce the values of the disc such as radial noise, push-pull, reflectivity, etc. A disc that produces high PIE or POF/PIF errors on a scan tells a consumer that the reading drive is having problems reading the disc. Those problems can be caused by less than decent discs, but they can also be caused by incompatibilities with the recorded disc and reading drive (being at opposite ends of push-pull thresholds, for example), incompatibilities with the recording drive that put the signals on the disc, hardware problems, file problems, or computer problems. Unless one can determine the real cause, all you can say is that the disc is "less than compatible," not less than decent--simply because there is no way of telling.
In the case of the CD-RWs I'm testing, I have no idea if they are good or bad. I won't know until I get test results from CATs, but even then I won't know until I also test unrecorded discs from the same batch. Only then will I have enough evidence to determine whether or not they are less than decent. (I already know they are less than compatible, and that's a strike against them.)
In the days of cassette tape, the IEC (International Electrotechnical Commission) defined four classes of tapes: Type I for ferric, Type II for chrome/high, Type III for ferrichrome, and Type IV for metal. BASF made the reference tapes for Types I and II; Sony made the reference tape for Type III; and TDK had the reference for metal. All cassette recorders were to be set up according to the reference tapes so that consumers would only have to set a switch to get a reliable recording. The Japanese agreed to these standards at every IEC meeting, yet never once in their production of most of the world's cassette recorders did they ever set their bias/EQ levels for the European reference tapes. They were always set for Japanese tapes with intentionally higher sensitivity settings. The result was that European and American tapes recorded on Japanese recorders with non-adjustable settings would always perform worse than Japanese tapes--even when the European and American tapes were superior. The same thing is going on with optical discs and drives. It is intentional, and it is frustrating. There was some hope when production was shifting to Taiwan with BenQ and Lite-on because they do work closely with Taiwan disc manufacturers. Then Sony/NEC joined with both those companies to form a manufacturing alliance. Lite-on will produce the equipment. NEC specs the electronics. Sony, which holds the majority share, handles firmware settings. Without this kind of knowledge, it is easy to fall prey to these manipulations and declare that only discs made in Japan are any good (even if they are made in Taiwan) and that Taiwanese product is deficient. This is exactly what digitalfaq believes because they fell into the trap.
I want to share this kind of information with AD addicts because it never hurts to know more. By all means recommend the more compatible and excellent quality TY and Verbatim discs. But please do not assert that discs that do not work are "garbage" or "fourth class." They might be, but unless they can be tested against published standards, there is no way of knowing if they are good or bad; and consumers do not have the equipment to determine those stndards. That is the message I've been trying to communicate for months.
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Moderator
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6. September 2006 @ 06:09 |
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Joe, i'm afraid i'm a simple chap, 'less than decent' (to me) means the same thing as 'less than compatible' :) - but i hear you..
(ps it was good to read the various cassette related terms, it's been many years since i've thought of ferric, types I and II, metal etc - showing my age here!). anyways, it sounds (partly) like an interesting job, doing what we do but much more scientifically (and getting paid for it too).
That is all good info (honestly). I certainly never mean to rubbish your posts, but you see my (and other like-minded people's) dilemma - those of us that have had very bad experiences with media become very distrustful of media. I sometimes think back to how many CD's i've burnt over quite some years. When i first got into CD burning i and a few friends used to buy (for instance) Traxdata cd's in boxes of 10 (they were very expensive and i certainly was in no position to be buying so many of the darn things but i digress). Over the years since then i have used all manner of brands/varieties of CD, very rarely have i had needed to ever know or care who really made them, they just worked and held data for years (and still are holding data) . Some of those original Traxdata cd's have let me down, but only because the silver film from around the top outer edge had started to flake (and i think that's only from keeping the burnt discs stacked in spindled tubs for years on end - i don't do that anymore). And when money became scarce some years back i started buying no-name silver-topped discs from computer shops/fairs and again, no care as to who made them or anything at all. They either worked or they didn't (i look after all my discs whether retail audio cd's or burnt cd's) and luckily for the most part over the years very few discs have suffered corruption etc. Really nasty cheapo discs have let me down quite quickly but again that's mostly from the crappy top film flaking away.
Anyway, for me personally, i get very disillusioned when i compare my experiences with CD burning to DVD burning hence my views on blank DVD's. I cannot believe how much time i've wasted (some of it was useful time used i guess) researching things when by rights i should just be able to buy (within reason) any old tub/pack of blank DVD's and they should just work (especially as i know all about sensible burning settings/habits). Amplify this point of view for people who are not computer literate and have all these problems then you hopefully at least see why people such as myself make the recommendations we make. I would certainly love to be able to buy cheaper media myself but after my experiences it would always be a false economy, and no way am i going to play the media buying lottery any time soon. My money dwindles away to almost nothing each month just paying for essentials here in glorious rip-off Britain :)
And I myself very much doubt i will ever go near any future technologies such as Blu-ray etc, for the reasons i've outlined above. That's quite enough about media for one day, my blood boils thinking what horrors lay in store for us with the newer technologies :)
Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. September 2006 @ 06:12
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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6. September 2006 @ 09:32 |
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Creaky--
You are right on the mark regarding blue laser. "Cutting edge" technology means someone bleeds on the edges, and it will be the consumers who are trusting data to the latest discs that push the possibilities of molding and manufacturing. A single strand of hair covers over 250 tracks on a Blu-ray disc. Some people will say, "That's impressive." My reaction is, "That's scary! People have hair--and it comes off!" Preliminary results in environmental chambers indicates that these things have life times measured in fruit fly years. By the time HD DVD and Blu-ray can be stabilized and come close to trustworthiness, the bugs in DVDs will have been worked out and CD-Rs become a no-brainer, unless so many shortcuts are taken on production of older media that they are no longer as reliable as they could be.
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G11011
Newbie
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6. September 2006 @ 12:03 |
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Joe, with all your biased statements, you must be a C Mag or memorex salesman. You're trying a hard sell on all the newbies or people who don't know any better.
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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6. September 2006 @ 13:54 |
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G11011--
I'm not selling anything. All of my comments oppose bias because they are based on facts and solid technical information and experience that almost no one on this site is lucky enough to be able to access. You will find nothing in any comment I have made on this site that is not factual or unbiased. As for newbies who don't know better, my intent is to help them know better because there is so much bias and so many inaccurate or false claims made against certain brands and manufacturers. New members who follow the trash talk will never learn anything about the complexity of the technology or the marketing politics behind the scenes. If they are turned onto TY or Verbatim and never experience a problem and recommend those media, that's wonderful and helpful. If, however, they insist that certain brands are "garbage" or "fourth class" because some unhappy customers claimed so, then they will never know any better. By the way, I have also defended TDK and Verbatim against false charges and even pointed out that TY's problems with DVD+R 16X are merely temporary.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. September 2006 @ 13:57
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dieseltu
Newbie
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6. September 2006 @ 20:27 |
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I want to put in 2 cents about Memorex. I,ve got some recently made memorex cds I use in my car and at work. One of my buddies made some Sony cds. They play everywhere except this one radio that dont like my cds. I have to fight with them and screw with the radio for a half hour sometimes to get one to play. Sometimes it plays, Sometimes it wont recognize a disk is in there. One of the cds is realy scratched but plays elsewhere but this radio. They play in here when they feel like it. Any others, Sony , Maxell, Vernbatims, play all the time, even ones I made. Thats it. Thanks for the blank media guide.
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Member
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7. September 2006 @ 04:15 |
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Stay away from Memorex and anything made by CMC. My bad experience have always been CMC Disks.
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