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Does DVD-RB 'process' files even at 0% compression like DVDShrink does...
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-Marlin-
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15. September 2005 @ 19:56 |
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At no compression will DVD-RB process/alter the file at all like some say Shrink does? Or will it make a true 100% 1:1 copy like decrypter does....?
Thanks!!
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l8nights
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16. September 2005 @ 03:48 |
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what is the reason you are encoding them if no compression is needed than all that is needed would be DVD Decrypter.
but to spend any time encoding/transcoding you will lose some quality but imho you will alway's get better results w/ the encoders (rb)
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UncasMS
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16. September 2005 @ 07:43 |
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there could be a good reason NOT to use dvddecrypter and still deal with no compression
think about omitting certain audio streams for example
this way a dvd might fit to DVD5 but because certain data are being left out no compression might be needed
+++++++++
back on topic: i wouldnt know how rb deals with cases like these - never happened to face this scenario
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MovieDud
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16. September 2005 @ 08:03 |
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@marlin, I use RB a lot...one of my primary programs. I have used it even when no compression is needed. The reason was that I was converting 4:3-16X9 letterbox (primarily changing non-anamorphic letterbox to anamorphic), in this case the encoding was needed due to the fact that it was changing the movie. It even tells you that no compression is needed, hence no encoding as well...do you want to continue anyways, I always answer yes...remember changing from4:3-16X9. It looks awe-some. I have also used Rebuilder to make just basic backups. Even no compression or when ask about the compression ? I asnwer no which moves the RB into the rebuilding stage and then it prepares an ISO image and Video Files folder to be burned with burning software. Just my experience. I'm like I8nights, that if no compression is needed...decrypter does agreat job as well as many other programs. Just wanting to help.
MovieDud
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-Marlin-
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16. September 2005 @ 08:06 |
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Hey no prblem hanks for the reply!!
My problem is that, I want to burn a movie in which the MAIN movie files fit at 0% compression, but ONLY if I remove french 5.1... so I can't just bunr it as an iso file in decrypter...
so I am just wondering if me remving the audio track and then using RB will alter the movie files in any way
Thanks again!!
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-Marlin-
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16. September 2005 @ 08:17 |
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I just tried decrypting in faile mode, then opening in RB and hitting prepare... and it says "Illegal Source VTS1 Missing"
That's wierd... all I did was going into decrypter aand hit main movie and IFOs and then decrypt..
Any ideas?
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MovieDud
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16. September 2005 @ 14:17 |
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@marlin, I typically place the movie on HD, using file mode and the entire disk...then open Rebuilder (I'm a movie only guy!) and allow Rebuilder to handle the portion of placing just the files that it needs in order to function, when I see the audio streams I will then disengage the streams I do not want. Hit Back-up (1 click mode) and Rebuilder does the rest. I use to try Movie Only files in decrypter, but Rebuidler wouldn't take it. I like having the Movie on HD that way theres not issue of using the Dvd Burner/Drive throughout the process. I have done it that way as well and it worked properly (I have AnyDVD running in the background!). Hope this helps.
MovieDud
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-Marlin-
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16. September 2005 @ 22:05 |
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Cool, thanks for the replies!!!
I am slowly getting the hang of things.... and appreciate all the help you guys give!!
Thanks!!
M
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Staff Member
2 product reviews
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17. September 2005 @ 05:15 |
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Quote:
At no compression will DVD-RB process/alter the file at all like some say Shrink does? Or will it make a true 100% 1:1 copy like decrypter does....?
I didn't see if anyone else had actually answered this, but it won't alter the video at all. I can also say that I've tested Shrink's uncompressed output using an AviSynth filter called SSIM that will tell you if there are any differences between to video streams and Shrink doesn't alter the video at all unless you compress.
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-Marlin-
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17. September 2005 @ 07:59 |
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Thanks vurbal... thats exactly the response I was looking for!!!
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17. September 2005 @ 08:43 |
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No problem
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Lumbastio
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18. September 2005 @ 00:23 |
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Vurbal, I don't agree that Shrink's uncompressed format does not alter the files. Besides the fact that many users agree that Shrink changes the files even when uncompressed, I tried it myself. After Shrink, I used RB/CCE 4 passes and the DVD still ended up with pixelation (or "mosquito effect") near the color edges. This is the nasty signature of Shrink. If it didn't alter the files under no compression settings, I wouldn't need Remake.
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Staff Member
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18. September 2005 @ 06:14 |
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Then Shrink must not work properly on your system. The test I did was a pixel by pixel comparison of the original to the uncompressed backup and it was identical.
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mc3man
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18. September 2005 @ 11:05 |
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for those that think shrink alters when reauthoring a title uncompressed it would be useful to offer something other than your opinion or perception. I do know that while encoding shrink uses 1 fairly unique matrice for all quality settings. It is a combination of fox high high in the upper box and high_medium in the lower box.
All shrink reauthored no comp titles will retain the original matrice(s) So if its not reencoding then what is shrink doing to "alter" the files? (other than not maintaining 32k gap between video ts. ifo and bub
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UncasMS
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18. September 2005 @ 11:20 |
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i've run more than one title through rebuilder first and then used the output files with shrink
nothing was changed in shrink
output was *backupped* via shrink again and guess what:
shrink DID change the source material in terms of file size (material was reduced slightly)
so please stop assuming shrink would NOT alter anything
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mc3man
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18. September 2005 @ 12:54 |
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while it's true that reprocessing a video ts uncompressed over and over in shrink will cost you 4kb in the last VOB each time that in no way means that the previous 4 million+ kb are any different than the original source. I'm not going to do the math but I'd estimate you'd have to repeat the process 100-150 times to lose 1 sec. at the end. i don't think this qualifies as Alerting it just something shrink does and is of no consequence
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UncasMS
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18. September 2005 @ 13:03 |
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fyi: i'm talking about some 53.000kb from ONE process with 7 vob files
++++++++++
of course i'm not implying that shrink would have an impact on the image quality
but saying shrink does never ever alter files is bs
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. September 2005 @ 13:06
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mc3man
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18. September 2005 @ 13:48 |
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I quess this is going nowhere but I just did the same video ts 4 times and each time lose 4 kb in the last VOB. this is with a source less than 4.3GB as in a split. To see what you were doing I ran the complete movie(deer hunter se) twice In this case the sizes are exactly the same size with 7 vobs 1,048,574kb and an 8th 703,212 and i'm willing to bet if I run it again it will be 703,212 or maybe
703,208 so where your 51,000 went is curious to say the least
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UncasMS
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18. September 2005 @ 13:57 |
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that's why i emphasized: *NEVER EVER*
i have recently had two titles where this happened and i bet there will be 2 more (talking about a 4 disc set)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. September 2005 @ 13:58
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AfterDawn Addict
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21. September 2005 @ 01:02 |
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I won't elaborate and I'm not here to argue but I used to use shrink set at no compression as a ripper and to edit the folder and then run it through dvd-rb but noticed on some scenes the background was unsteady or jumpy (for lack of better words) from the foreground. I played back each stage from ripping to encoding from my hdd and determined the problem to be at the initial rip with shrink. I ripped the same dvd with dvd decrypter and played it back from my hdd and the problem was gone. I now use only dvd decrypter and dvdremake to rip and edit my folders and have had no problems since so I say yes dvd shrink does process (alter) files even set at no compression but I have no way to prove it. I don't know about dvd-rb/cce at no compression.
If you only need to remove an audio stream to make a folder fit on a dvd5 then you can rip with dvd decrypter in file mode and use dvdremake to remove the audio stream then use nero to burn the folder.
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AfterDawn Addict
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6. October 2005 @ 15:42 |
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Vurbal
It's possible that the pixel count is approximately the same but what's in each pixel may not be. Did you compare the result pixel by pixel? Sometimes the eyes can see what can't be easily measured through bean counting. If the sharpness is altered are pixels being dropped?
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
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6. October 2005 @ 16:06 |
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What I'm saying is that each pixel from the copy is identical the original. SSIM doesn't just look at total values from the frame. It compares the Y, U, and V value of each pixel in the copy to the corresponding Y, U, and V value in the original (actually pixel really only applies to the Y values but that's another explanation entirely). If a single pixel is different it will give a value of less than 1 for that frame. If they're the same it will give a value of 1.0000.
Since this is somewhat of an obscure test to use, and it doesn't translate into plain english well so just anyone can understand it perhaps I could run a simpler test. I could find a titleset with just a single title in it and re-author that title in Shrink. Then I could demux the video from both and compare them with a hex editor.
Edit: basically what I was saying in the first paragraph is that bean counting is the most reliable way to compare any 2 digital signals because it's the only way you can be 100% sure. You're eyes can see what you expect to see but 1 + 1 always equals 10 ;)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. October 2005 @ 16:09
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AfterDawn Addict
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6. October 2005 @ 17:05 |
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Knowing that the chrominance and luminance is of the same pixel count and even color balance doesn't mean that they are of the exact same values. Isn't it possible that a minor shift in any of them can provide the same overall count but a different result? Isn't that essentially how one adjusts the picture quality on their TV sets?
Hmm! Didn't we have a similar debate on this about a year ago?
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6. October 2005 @ 17:53 |
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That would be a true statement if we were talking about simply comparing totals for a frame but that's not it at all. SSIM compares individual pixels to pixels in the same locations. In other words, let's say you have the following Y, U, and V values in the original:
Y: 3 2 8 8 2 4
U: 2 2 4
V: 4 4 4
Y: 3 1 8 7 2 1
V:
4 4 4
If both files don't have those exact values in those locations SSIM will return a number less than 1. If it returns a 1 both frames have those same values in the same locations. If that's the case, the only way for one to look different than the other would be a difference in the decoder.
In terms of a hex editor the comparison is more straight forward in layman's terms. It will compare the 1's and 0s to make sure they match up identically. If there is a single 1 or 0 that's different from one file to the other it will tell you. If every digit in both files are identical they have to be exactly the same visually, once again assuming no decoder differences.
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AfterDawn Addict
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6. October 2005 @ 18:03 |
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Vurbal
So you're saying that the actual degree of luminance and chrominance are being measured or just the pixel location? Does it include variances in brightness and color tone? Remember that a minor shift in brightness (luminance) or a slight pull toward the blue or read spectrums can occur within the same pixel but it would still be in the same location wouldn't it?
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