|
What Are The Differences In Lines Of Resolution Between Broadcasted And Recorded Video Sources?
|
|
AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
|
6. September 2004 @ 09:21 |
Link to this message
|
|
Vurbal
good luck with your PC.
I don't think there's any point in continuing the debate and I'm definitely not in the mood to count chrominance pixels in a given line. The difference is largely due to the lack of the actual lines themselves. All I?m saying is that the signal will be no better than its source regardless of the recording capacity or capabilities of your capture card. If your capture card is connected to your DTV receiver by either S-Video or component then you are able to record a high quality picture but if it?s connected by a composite or RF cable then the input will be seriously downgraded.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
|
Advertisement
|
|
|
|
|
jdobbs
Senior Member
|
6. September 2004 @ 09:58 |
Link to this message
|
Quote:
[posted by verbal] I don't know if you've ever done any video capturing, but I can say from personal experience that my captures from VHS are much lower quality than my analog cable, digital cable, or Dish Network captures.
My experience matches yours.
|
AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
|
6. September 2004 @ 10:04 |
Link to this message
|
|
I also agree with that but then I've only captured from Hi8 and Betmax. I still have two SuperBeta hifis which I treasure. You will remeber that I conceded that standard cable produced a marginally better picture than VHS.
jdobbs
Seems I was lucky since I'm still able to get online. In the county I live in(Hillsborough), 66% of the population lost power, so I'm among the fortunte 34%. I'll still give those battery backups a consideration.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. September 2004 @ 10:05
|
|
jdobbs
Senior Member
|
6. September 2004 @ 10:26 |
Link to this message
|
|
Well I could debate the "marginally" -- but this horse is as dead as it gets.
Glad you kept the power up... still getting rain? I listen to the news and start thinking of Bill Cosby: "Noah... how long can you tread water?"
|
AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
|
6. September 2004 @ 10:34 |
Link to this message
|
jdobbs
Quote:
but this horse is as dead as it gets.
Let me second that.
What's odd is that my neighbor's lost their power lines in fact two of them are in my back yard right nest to my pool.
I like Bill Cosby too and the joke was well placed. I've been sleeping in 3 hour spurts since Friday so that I can keep an eye on my family. I'm not as lucid as I'd like to be but outside the continued rain things are good.
I've made my wife a little nervous because to kill time in the "wee hours of the morning" I decided to check out Ebay. I'm bidding on a copy of Adobe Premier Pro 1.5.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. September 2004 @ 10:35
|
|
64026402
Senior Member
|
6. September 2004 @ 12:08 |
Link to this message
|
|
My understanding is one line of tv signal is analog with no discete countable pieces of information like a digitital signal. Although I imagine you can attempt to segment the analog lines into the pixels on a screen. But this could hardly be considered effective resolution.
The Chroma you describe while it is possible to modify the quality or the picture to some degree is reletively limited in effect.
It has been some time since my studies in this area but the color aspect of the tv signal has always been more of an afterthought and very limited in scope until the higher definition standards came out.
Even when NTSC was created it was considered limited and subject to change as technology permitted.
I haven't kept up on all the advances so I can't keep up with all the ins and outs of our discussion but other than HDtv I know of no real quality improvements to the tv signal since color was added to the signal.
Donald
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. September 2004 @ 12:11
|
|
jdobbs
Senior Member
|
6. September 2004 @ 12:23 |
Link to this message
|
|
That's why a broadcast signal is measured in "horizontal lines of resolution" -- because there truly are no pixels in an analog signal. Of course a standard CRT based TV does have the equivalent of pixels in phosphor dots.
Horizontal lines of resolution lets you know how many side-by-side black-and-white lines can be distinguished as such before they dissolve into gray mush.
|
AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
|
6. September 2004 @ 12:37 |
Link to this message
|
|
Hey guys!
My thoughts are that this thread should be used for the off topic discussions we sometimes pollute an on topic thread with. I think we need a place to share ideas and blow off steam. It should have been started in "Safety Zone," but I see no reason why that's important. Sometimes the off topic discussions can teach us as much, if not more than the strict and Narrow right on topic threads can.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
Staff Member
2 product reviews
|
6. September 2004 @ 12:49 |
Link to this message
|
@Sophocles
My question was sincere. You said there's a maximum resolution of 400x400 that can be sent across an S-video connection (which I'm not arguing with). I'm just trying to make sure I understand you correctly that (at maximum resolution) you'd be able to get 400 distinct pixels worth of chroma information. Actually, I'd also like to know how many you could get using a composite signal instead.
I also think we're talking past each other with regard to signal quality. I'm not talking about getting any better quality than the source. I'm talking about what the quality of the source is, and whether you lose some of that quality by capturing at less than D1 resolution. The point of that question is that if you lose any detail by going to a lower resolution, it's better to capture at D1. If there's not that much information in the original signal, it may make more sense to capture at SVCD resolution so you don't waste space, although there's also issues of bitrate to consider that may make SVCD unsuitable.
I think the disconnect is coming from the fact that I'm approaching purely from the angle of making sure there ever piece of chroma information is displayed. You seem to saying there's no point in using a resolution higher than the effective resolution of the original signal. Once again, I don't disagree with that, but I'm trying to point out that the chroma resolution for an MPEG is half the total horizontal resolution of the frame, so if you want to include all chroma information, it seems that you need to have twice the horizotal resolution of the original. If this isn't the case I want to understand why.
If you don't want to discuss it I can understand, but I'm really not trying to debate the analog signal. I'm trying to find out why you think my conclusions are wrong. As I stated in my first post, I don't know enough about analog video to come to conclusions without getting facts from others (like the effective resolution of an S-Video signal). If you don't want to respond to that I'll respect that and considered the subject dropped.
@64026402
My comparison is based on the original point, which was that TV captures weren't much better than VHS captures. My original response (the one that started this whole thing on the other thread) was that TV captures can be much better than VHS captures. This depends, at least in part, on the what you consider to be VHS capture quality. My comparison is necessarily based on the quality I've been able to get from my captures, therefore a comparison with those is the only one I have. I also consider the quality of my VCR's output to be pretty average so I wouldn't call it the worst quality either. The tapes I copied weren't particularly worn. It may just be that my personal preferences make the flaws VHS has look worse to me. If I had a better player to work with I might not feel that way either. I really can't say. The only thing I've ever claimed was that it's not always the case.
|
AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
|
6. September 2004 @ 12:58 |
Link to this message
|
|
Signal to noise ratio determines the differnce in lower quality formats. If digital has less noise and fewer artifacts during transmission than the others, then it will at least benefit from that, even if the overall piture quality has been downgraded.
You keep talking about pixels but as jdobbs stated they're really no clearly defined pixels just illuminated phosphors affected by three color guns (RBG). Unless of course they're LCD or some similar screen reproduction where the actual pixels are illuminated.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. September 2004 @ 13:20
|
|
64026402
Senior Member
|
6. September 2004 @ 13:15 |
Link to this message
|
|
A minor point is that I said that a tv signal capture wouldn't be better than a VHS output, not a VHS capture. Capturing video from a VHS source would add another level of compromise to the results.
I figured a compressed mpeg played back on a tv would not be better than a tape being played on a tv.
My experiences support this particular conclusion. Not scientific. Just subjective opinion.
Not that I watch either on tv anymore.
For the record I put Directv in a diferent category than tv in general. There is quite a difference even without HD.
Donald
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. September 2004 @ 13:16
|
|
jdobbs
Senior Member
|
6. September 2004 @ 13:22 |
Link to this message
|
|
I typically capture broadcast TV using the tuner of a VCR and A to D conversion by using my Sony DV camera and Firewire into the computer. The connections are exactly the same as if I play back a VHS tape and capture in the same manner. I can tell you that in my experience the difference in quality between the off-the-air signal and a VHS tape is intuitively obvious to the casual observer.
(Come on horsey, get up... you foul smelling corpse).
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. September 2004 @ 13:36
|
AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
|
6. September 2004 @ 13:31 |
Link to this message
|
|
Vurbal
You're are truly a special person, your curiousity is to be admired, and I always have.
Hmm! In your "doggedness" to put me in check you've ignored some of the simple principles of video transmission, everything is sublimated to its limits. I don't feel that you're "hounding" me but you may have out "foxed" yourself. I'm not against your conclusions, they're valid, I'm only stating that as much as you put into something, no more shall you receive.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
|
6. September 2004 @ 13:35 |
Link to this message
|
|
jdobbs
You know you can't make more with less but I'm looking to buy a Digital video camera, any suggestions?
(Ride 'em Cowboy, kick those horsey's into submisson):)
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
|
64026402
Senior Member
|
6. September 2004 @ 13:39 |
Link to this message
|
|
But I'm a non intuitive serious observer.
Other than boredom I'm not sure why we're aguing about VHS.
But I must assume you have better video capture ability than me. I don't believe either of us are going to be recording a lot on VHS in the future so I will leave the dead horse alone.
My TV shows are on Tivo and movies are on dvd.
I just use the VCR for the ocassional transfer to DVD from family videos.
Donald
|
AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
|
6. September 2004 @ 13:45 |
Link to this message
|
|
Donald
The point of this thread is to let loose and yea I think this debate about VHS comparative quality thing has no wings. I know that we'll find another reason to come here in time.:) LOL
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. September 2004 @ 13:46
|
|
64026402
Senior Member
|
6. September 2004 @ 14:56 |
Link to this message
|
|
I do like the resolution used in cave drawings.
But the conversion process looses some chroma thingies when putting them on DVD.
I suppose we could talk automotive repair.
That may be a little too far off topic.
At least I know more about it. Then I could post a long one.
Donald
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. September 2004 @ 14:56
|
AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
|
6. September 2004 @ 15:02 |
Link to this message
|
|
Donlad
Never under estimate cave paintings, at the time it was "state of the art."
I got your point and I hate even the thought of discussing auto mechanics.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
|
64026402
Senior Member
|
6. September 2004 @ 15:05 |
Link to this message
|
|
It still seems you have quite a storm hanging over Florida. Is it still blowing hard near you.
Donald
|
AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
|
6. September 2004 @ 15:08 |
Link to this message
|
|
Yes it's blowing near me but not as bad and I get tomorrow off. I'm lucky, I'm not in a flood zone, when almost a quarter of a million people are without power and I'm online, it's mostly alright.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
|
64026402
Senior Member
|
6. September 2004 @ 15:09 |
Link to this message
|
|
I have cars in on the brain all week so this little world is my escape.
One persons brain racking computer problem is my relaxation. No wheels, no grease, no fuel injection.
Donald
|
AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
|
6. September 2004 @ 15:13 |
Link to this message
|
Quote:
I have cars in on the brain all week so this little world is my escape. One persons brain racking computer problem is my relaxation. No wheels, no grease, no fuel injection.
I like it as an escape too. I used to think that a lucky evening was a corrupted operating system and a hard disk reformat.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
|
64026402
Senior Member
|
6. September 2004 @ 15:15 |
Link to this message
|
|
I'm glad you made it through with power.
When the big ice storm knocked our power out for 10 days I found out how ill equipped I am to handle life without the comforts.
Donald
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. September 2004 @ 15:16
|
AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
|
6. September 2004 @ 15:19 |
Link to this message
|
|
For people like us it's not the comforts we'll miss, it's the not being online.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
|
Advertisement
|
|
|
|
64026402
Senior Member
|
6. September 2004 @ 15:27 |
Link to this message
|
When the power went out the notebook and dialup was my survival tool.
Is the tree near the powerline behaving better I hope?
I'm figuring you haven't backed up any movies during the storm. You'll have some catching up to do.
I just read in another thread someone retracting their audio dropout accusation against RB.
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/1/104986#561478
Donald
|
