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Blank media sales (updated weekly, daily, hourly)
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12. January 2010 @ 14:15 |
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Originally posted by greensman:
Thanks... ;) NO mistaking the "Made in Japan" either. lol. :D
No problem. Yeah, MIJ, good stuff indeed.
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dr_ml422
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12. January 2010 @ 14:31 |
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SAMSUNG SH-S203B, SAMSUNG SH-S223F, SAMSUNG SH-S202J, PIONEER DVR 112D
Common Sense Aint Too Common Anymore.
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12. January 2010 @ 15:35 |
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Originally posted by rc1489:
Thanks
In my internet travels i read some content some where suggesting some dvds were 10 year life, subject to storeage, so i usually make a user and then a keeper. But after i read the time period i started digging more to see the years. Today i called Funail co, one of the stand alones i have for tech question, but he had never heard such a thing as 10 year, thought it was a myth if you will.
Thanks for the reply.
Back in 2006, a fluff piece was written -- pure propaganda and horsefeathers -- by a shill for IBM. The so-called claim was about how tape will last for decades (IBM, of course, just happens to sell taps and not discs -- wink, wink, nudge, nudge), but DVDs will only last 2-5 years.
In the past 3-4 years, this has been distorted and re-distorted, ranging anywhere from 6 months to 10-15 years, all of it being stupid, false, incorrect misinformation.
The "proof" from the article reminded me of a quote from the movie JFK, where it was said that, if you really want to, you can screw around with facts and figures enough to eventually prove an elephant can hang off a cliff with it's tail tied to a daisy. That's about the same quality of logic as was applied to the whole 2-5 years baloney.
Funai is correct -- it's a myth. As the quote goes, "lies, lies and more damn lies". And IBM was the liar (directly or indirectly, I don't know or care -- their name is involved with it).
What JoeRyan said about 40-50 years minimum is correct. Those are consistent results amongst many studies, including "big name" studies like the LOC, OSTA, NIST, Sony, Mitsubishi and others.
The only reason that the 2-5 year article ran was because PC World apparently picked it up first, followed by Yahoo News. As you may or may not know, their journalistic standards are even below that of Fox News or the National Enquirer, and they pretty much publish any piece of crap that gets pushed their direction. An article like that should NEVER have been circulated. Their standards are a bit better now, but in 2006 it was pretty much in the toilet.
After the propaganda nature of it was revealed, a lot of outlets removed it, going so far as to entirely scrub it from their archives.
"I read it on the Internet, it must be true". A lot of people laugh at this, but they do it anyway. That stupid story is doing damage years later.
MAM-A ran with this story, claiming that they have special gold DVDs that will last longer than "standard silver" discs -- or some nonsense to that effect. But the truth here is gold discs are HARDER to read, and will be the first discs to be unreadable many years down the road!
"A company said it, it must be true!" Again, people will laugh, but they still do it anyway! IBM and MAM-A have junk to sell you, truth is second to profit. Better buy a tinfoil hat to go with those gold DVDs and magnetic "archival" data tapes.
Want to have some fun? Archives.gov has a bunch of nonsense -- often contradicting itself on the same page! It's an odd mishmash of myth and fact, I get dizzy trying to read it.
Buy JVC Taiyo Yuden (any line), Sony (Taiwan) or Verbatim (not "Value Series"), and you are unlikely to have any problems.
More on these topics at http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/media/index.htm
Alright, back to work! :)
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12. January 2010 @ 15:51 |
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After about 10 minutes of searching, I finally came across a copy of the article that wasn't a dead link. Again, this was nothing more than a heavily slanted IBM-biased puff piece with strong undertones to buy their products:
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/1..._for_burned_CDs
This is "patient zero" when it comes to myths on DVD longevity.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 12. January 2010 @ 15:52
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rc1489
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12. January 2010 @ 16:25 |
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I just received this today from a "very reliable source"
Quote:
[b]The media if stored properly will have a life of at least 50 years.
The enemies of a DVD are humidity, sunlight and handling (scratches). I recommend the following strategy for archival of irreplaceable items such as family photos or videos.
If you are looking at valuable information which needs to be accessed often, I would recommend a strategy of making 3 copies of each DVD. One to use on a regular basis, one as a back-up which is readily available and the 3rd is kept in a very controlled environment for long term access. Again, digital reproductions will be identical, so in theory, 20 years from now, you can pull out your archive, make a couple of new copies and have identical DVDs to the first.
I would review your archives with every "technology" change to ensure you can still access the media when you upgrade to a new system and you will probably want to restore the information at that time. Therefore, if the media lasts 20 years or 70 years, it will probably not matter. I can't even envision what we will use to view photos or videos 70 years from now.
Make multiple copies, enjoy the digital videos and upgrade the information when you upgrade your system[/b]
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JoeRyan
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12. January 2010 @ 17:21 |
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rc1489--
The suggestions you posted for safeguarding data are correct, but heat is also one of the critical enemies of longevity. lordsmurf's observations are also correct, but the original author was not a shill for IBM but a tape researcher. His observations were completely biased and probably based on the worst discs he could find that were likely to have been intentionally incompatible with his recording drive. (Sony once did much the same thing at a CES demo, but that's another story.)
You had an earlier question about dyes--the MID code will not tell you what dye is used for a disc unless you understand the codes or know what a factory is actually using. Most DVD discs use azo cyanine dye, although there are some producers using cyanine. If an "F" appears in the MID code, it is very likely to be Fuji's Oxonol dye that was used. This dye requires slightly greater laser power for recording, but initial environmental tests suggested it might be superior to azo cyanine in longevity. Unfortunately the testing was never completed due to the time and cost involved. (A full test, such as the one that indicated a lifetime for well recorded DVD+R media >39 years with 95% confidence and an average of 52 years takes ten to eleven months from beginning to end.)
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rc1489
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12. January 2010 @ 20:38 |
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AfterDawn Addict
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12. January 2010 @ 21:46 |
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@lordsmurf
Quote:
As you may or may not know, their journalistic standards are even below that of Fox News or the National Enquirer
National Inquirer had the Tiger Woods story way before any major new sources and Fox, I believe, was the first TV news to report it.
There are no news-worthy news sources left in the USA, but I digress.
I'll be looking for the JVC +Rs also. LOL
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12. January 2010 @ 21:50 |
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Originally posted by garmoon:
I'll be looking for the JVC +Rs also. LOL
Getting back on topic, so are there even any B&M stores that carry the new JVC DVDs?
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dr_ml422
Senior Member
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12. January 2010 @ 22:00 |
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Originally posted by Playr:
Originally posted by garmoon:
I'll be looking for the JVC +Rs also. LOL
Getting back on topic, so are there even any B&M stores that carry the new JVC DVDs?
That's the $29.99 dollar question. If according to Yuden they want the average user to be more privy to them then my guess is they would be soon. I'm not totally sure though, but it only makes sense as Verbs are in B&M stores.
Online purchasing to me is a convenience at times along w/good deals.
I don't mind at all though hitting Best Buy or the local mom n pop here that's carrying prodisc, Ritek etc...
Maybe Joe Ryan can lighten this up a bit as well.
SAMSUNG SH-S203B, SAMSUNG SH-S223F, SAMSUNG SH-S202J, PIONEER DVR 112D
Common Sense Aint Too Common Anymore.
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12. January 2010 @ 22:34 |
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Originally posted by dr_ml422:
Originally posted by Playr:
Getting back on topic, so are there even any B&M stores that carry the new JVC DVDs?
That's the $29.99 dollar question. If according to Yuden they want the average user to be more privy to them then my guess is they would be soon. I'm not totally sure though, but it only makes sense as Verbs are in B&M stores.
Yeah, that's what the report said, but geez, it's been what 3 or 4 month since TY took over JVC and still no JVC media at B&Ms. It's a great plan on paper but they still need to execute it. For me, it would be great to pop into my local BB or Staples and grab some JVC DVDs when I need them, but I'm not against buying them online if I have to.
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dr_ml422
Senior Member
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13. January 2010 @ 03:50 |
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Originally posted by Playr:
Originally posted by dr_ml422:
Originally posted by Playr:
Getting back on topic, so are there even any B&M stores that carry the new JVC DVDs?
That's the $29.99 dollar question. If according to Yuden they want the average user to be more privy to them then my guess is they would be soon. I'm not totally sure though, but it only makes sense as Verbs are in B&M stores.
Yeah, that's what the report said, but geez, it's been what 3 or 4 month since TY took over JVC and still no JVC media at B&Ms. It's a great plan on paper but they still need to execute it. For me, it would be great to pop into my local BB or Staples and grab some JVC DVDs when I need them, but I'm not against buying them online if I have to.
Did you know about this move way back, or did it hit you until recently like for a lot of us? I just happened to spot the small print in Meritline's description. Bottom line is that to just stay online now is totally contradictary to what their plan is. You know how it is w/business though. They'll do w/e moves the $$$ most.
SAMSUNG SH-S203B, SAMSUNG SH-S223F, SAMSUNG SH-S202J, PIONEER DVR 112D
Common Sense Aint Too Common Anymore.
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13. January 2010 @ 04:04 |
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Call the company and ask about the dye used? Good luck with that. Manufacturers and brands mostly despise the fact that consumers know anything about media IDs, dye types, etc. Getting information from them -- even as a tech journalist -- can be a pain in the butt.
Taiyo Yuden bought the JVC brand name back in 2008. They started to use it in October 2009 finally. More details at http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/showthre...-over-1760.html
Sorry JoeRyan, have to disagree with you on the "IBM shill" comment. Maybe the writer was not, but the source most definitely was: "Kurt Gerecke, a physicist and storage expert at IBM Deutschland GmbH" (quote pulled right out of the article). The article was mostly quotes and paraphrasing from that guy -- somebody who was (I believe) later revealed to know next to nothing about optical media, being an expert solely in magnetic media. So it's possible he pulled some of the CD/DVD "research" completely out of his butt. I don't know if it was ever revealed if the writer had an ulterior motive -- personally I think he just sucked at vetting his sources. It reminds me a lot of that equally-silly Netflix "throttling" article (which was mostly BS around a tiny core of truth). That too, was largely revealed for the shameful media-whoring it was, but conspiracy myths about Netflix persist, too.
If TY is planning to ship JVC to B&M's, then realize the B&M's will want to place minimum orders. If TY really wants to enter the B&M market, then it's likely production is in full force right now to create that initial orders. And it will take a number of months to fill it, I'm sure.
I think it's OSTA that has publicly available documents on media testing. Some of the aging tests take years to complete, and it can cost a small fortune. Your R&D costs at work.
If anybody needs me, I'm generally found hanging around the digitalFAQ.com and videohelp.com forums regularly, though I try to visit afterdawn at least once a month.
Happy burning.
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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13. January 2010 @ 08:57 |
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I was referring to Herr Gerecke, the original author of the article, who was not a shill but an IBM employee and "physicist." You must have meant the author of the fluff piece, not the white paper.
JVC media will, perhaps, be as widespread as JVC equipment--which rules out most retail outlets, certainly the largest ones. The costs of media manufacturing in Japan, unsubsidized by the government as it is in Taiwan, make it very difficult for Taiyo Yuden to compete in the retail market where the retail margins are expected to be greater than 30% and suppliers must pay for space on shelves. Those shelves are getting smaller for optical media every week. Retailers also demand up-front money for flyers and promotional activities. At one point in the mid 1990's TDK knocked BASF VHS tapes out of Wal-mart by: 1) offering the lowest price in the business; 2) buying up all BASF stock and destroying it; 3) paying Wal-mart $3 million for ad support and shelf space before a single TDK cassette got into a store. The "victory" provided TDK's worst loss ever. It's very difficult to earn back $3 million when you earn a half penny or less on each stock item.
A question arose about metal azo cyanine and whether or not that was a different dye. Cyanine and azo cyanine are both unstable in light and heat unless they are stabilized by metalizers in the formulations. So both azo cyanine and regular cyanine can have the adjective "metal" added to them, and some companies emphasize the addition as a special feature.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 13. January 2010 @ 09:40
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dr_ml422
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13. January 2010 @ 13:12 |
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1 quick ? How did Verbatim manage to survive the retail market etc...? The Taiwanese subsidizing? Worked out pretty well imo. They're very good still and a very close 2nd if not 1st to some next to TYs. Everyone has their individual likes/dislikes.
SAMSUNG SH-S203B, SAMSUNG SH-S223F, SAMSUNG SH-S202J, PIONEER DVR 112D
Common Sense Aint Too Common Anymore.
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AfterDawn Addict
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13. January 2010 @ 13:36 |
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Taiyo Yuden = MIJ / JVC = Victor Company of Japan. This all make sense
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dr_ml422
Senior Member
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13. January 2010 @ 14:18 |
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If the cost was a issue from the 1st place, then how are they saving money by keeping the same plants in the same place producing the same stuff? It's all Japan. What, JVC will incur some of the overhead now?
Who cares anyway. As long as we all have a longer run w/TYS until reality sets in it's all good.
SAMSUNG SH-S203B, SAMSUNG SH-S223F, SAMSUNG SH-S202J, PIONEER DVR 112D
Common Sense Aint Too Common Anymore.
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rc1489
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13. January 2010 @ 14:18 |
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Well thatr can be the case for a layman trying to decipher specs
but if it's not all listed then again how do you find out, maybe i'm missing something?
Quote:
lordsmurf (Member) 13. January 2010 @ 03:04
Call the company and ask about the dye used? Good luck with that. Quote:
Manufacturers and brands mostly despise the fact that consumers know anything about media IDs, dye types
, etc. Getting information from them -- even as a tech journalist -- can be a pain in the butt.
I am not above doing that , maybe if i have to.
who is the user?
tks
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13. January 2010 @ 15:29 |
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Originally posted by dr_ml422:
If the cost was a issue from the 1st place, then how are they saving money by keeping the same plants in the same place producing the same stuff? It's all Japan. What, JVC will incur some of the overhead now?
Who cares anyway. As long as we all have a longer run w/TYS until reality sets in it's all good.
Well, the idea is to sell in volume by making TYs (JVC in this case) available to the general masses via retail outlets like Best Buy, Staples, OM, etc., etc. That means selling a ton of media at a lower profit margin while competing against the likes of Verbatim, Sony, etc., and the sad part original Taiyo Yuden. If and when the new JVC media will be able to establish a foot in the door with retailers will be the key to their success. Personally, I think JVC will have to undercut Verbs, Sony and others in price to be successful. I say this because I think the general population will NOT be aware of just how great MIJ JVC media is and will pass on them if JVC media is $0.05 per disc more, afterall, why pay more if "it's all the same". And if none of that happens, how long can Taiyo Yuden remain in business running two production lines (which compete against each other)?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 13. January 2010 @ 15:34
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dr_ml422
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13. January 2010 @ 15:41 |
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Exactly and according to Joe Ryan the likelihood of them hitting Retail Stores is very slim, well I think he said large retailers, but best Buy etc... are pretty large if not small. Only matter of time Taiwan kicks in. Maybe that's the delay also who knows. I mean how can they start selling say DVD+Rs at about $24.99 like Verbatim does occasionally from the gate. No way.
Sony's having a great ole time w/the whole Blu-ray thingy. How they're making up for that mess is the best kept secret afaik. Not even their TVs are no.1 anymore.
SAMSUNG SH-S203B, SAMSUNG SH-S223F, SAMSUNG SH-S202J, PIONEER DVR 112D
Common Sense Aint Too Common Anymore.
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AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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19. January 2010 @ 11:47 |
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 Piss me off, and I Will ignore You! |
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19. January 2010 @ 11:53 |
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AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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19. January 2010 @ 12:01 |
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I don't burn much lately, I switched to "digital"))), Divx/H.264,but I do have a stack of a couple hundred Verbs from when I was burning regularly,top notch indeed, and had great success with Buy.com too, just never had an experience with mail-in rebates from them. Some companies(Office Max for example), totally suck at it, will NEVER EVER get fooled by them again...
Piss me off, and I Will ignore You!
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AfterDawn Addict
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19. January 2010 @ 12:03 |
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Originally posted by cyprusrom:
I don't burn much lately, I switched to "digital"))), Divx/H.264,but I do have a stack of a couple hundred Verbs from when I was burning regularly,top notch indeed, and had great success with Buy.com too, just never had an experience with mail-in rebates from them. Some companies(Office Max for example), totally suck at it, will NEVER EVER get fooled by them again...
YEah.. with them it's double dot and double cross to make sure you don't screw it up.. lol.
I've been lucky with rebates... whenever I didn't forget to mail them in on time... I've ALAWAYS got my rebate.. even with the "difficult" companies. ;)
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AfterDawn Addict
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19. January 2010 @ 12:54 |
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Office Max has 100 disc cakeboxes of Verbatim DVDs for $19.99 + tax (no rebate necessary) through Sunday January 24th . . .
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