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and round #1 goes to HD-DVD...
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diabolos
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21. June 2006 @ 09:23 |
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I have been reading alot of reviews about the new Samsung Blu-ray player and some of the Blu-ray movies. The general feeling I get is that people are having a poor to average experience with some of the Blu-ray movies.
I have not seen a Blu-ray movie yet but some of the specs I am reading have me questioning Sony's buisness plan.
First, All the first gen Blu-ray movies are encoded with MPEG-2...
This is a big thing because HD-DVD uses VC-1 for all of it 1st gen movies. VC-1 is MPEG-4 complient meaning that it is more than twice as efficient given the same souce. VC-1 gives a perception of a better picture at half the bitrate and has no MPEG-1/2 encoding articats.
2nd, Some of the movies I have seen have 6 channel PCM sound tracks (some even have English and Spanish tracks in PCM).
As most of you know PCM is a uncompressed sound format that takes up alot of space. CD tracks use 2 Channels of PCM at 16/44.1 and uses up about 650 MB of space an hour. Blu-ray movies probably record 6 Channels of PCM at 24/96 which would take up alot more space that could be used for other things like improved picture quality and special features. but I don't know what the PCM streams are yet...
3rd; This may be a rumor but I have read that The Blu-ray camp hasn't quite perfected the dual layer BD tech.
Meaning that none of the 1st gen titles exceed 25 GB.
4th, because of the 25 GB limit, use of MPEG-2 for video and PCM for audio, reviewers are finding that there isn't much space for SP. features. At present HD-DVD has used dual layer media for all movies except the ones on hybrid DVD/HD-DVD discs. So for now HD-DVD has a +/-5 GB advantage over Blu-ray.
5th. Both the Toshiba player and Samsung player use the same chips. The chips de-interlace the source then send them out. The Samsung just turn the 1080i signal back into 1080p.
If you have seen Blu-ray and HD-DVD demos let me know what you think please...
Ced
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 9. July 2006 @ 17:40
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mudearies
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21. June 2006 @ 14:27 |
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good info ^^^ right on man.
blu-ray for the freaking win. hdvd r.i.p.
the allmighty mudearies...
79% Sony Fanboy , 10% xbox fanboy , 11% Kidtendo fanboy. |
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oofRome
Senior Member
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21. June 2006 @ 16:15 |
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Mudearies: Ced's post was bad news for Blu-ray and good news for HD-DVD. It seemed like you got mixed up, but if not then no harm forget what I just said. :-)
Anyways, I think the reason that blu-ray is in mpeg-2 and hd-dvd is in mpeg 4 has to do with capicity. (Blu-ray has a little more breathing room)
It doesn't effect picture quality, does it? I was under the impression that it doesn't.
As for Dual Layer bluray, is it even necessary at this point in time?
I guess round 2 will be launch sales? Apparently, both had/are having weak launch sales.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 21. June 2006 @ 16:16
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21. June 2006 @ 17:38 |
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How are we in round one when niether are doing sh!t?Have they even been released yet?Were still in the pre-fight hype right now.
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oofRome
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21. June 2006 @ 19:27 |
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Blu-ray launched early this month, and HD-DVD made it's debut a while ago.
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diabolos
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21. June 2006 @ 20:50 |
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Thats right, thanks oofRome. My local CC has the Samsung BD player hooked up to the 50" Samsung (720p) DLP. They where playing House of Flying Daggers. My BB has has the HD-DVD players on display since the end of april (although availability was very limited). They have about 20+ different HD-DVD titles (old and new).
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Anyways, I think the reason that blu-ray is in mpeg-2 and hd-dvd is in mpeg 4 has to do with capicity. (Blu-ray has a little more breathing room)
It doesn't effect picture quality, does it? I was under the impression that it doesn't.
Oh yea it does. MPEG-4 is a better codec not only because it out preforms MPEG-2 by 2:1 (sometimes 3:1) but also because its video streams don't exibit image artifacts inherent to MPEG-1/2 video encoding schemes! I have read at the AVS forums that MPEG-2 encoders are sometimes tweaked to soften the picture to get rid of the artifacts. That obviously is a bad practice since fine detain is lost.
Yes Blu-ray has more space but even 25 GB isn't enough when the audio tracks are uncompressed 6 Channel PCM at 24/96. Alot of people are wondering where the Special Features are. Why did they use PCM instead of Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD? [rumor] because the Samsung player doesn't support them! It doesn't even support Dolby Digital Plus! That is why early adopters are disappointed with Blu-ray's first player and titles.[/rumor]
By rounds I mean the first HD-DVD player and titles vs. the first Blu-ray player and titles. You know the first impressions. This "Title Fight" guarantees many more rounds before it is over..
Ced
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 21. June 2006 @ 21:28
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21. June 2006 @ 22:02 |
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yeah I know offrome I was being sarcastic...it was on the freaking afterdawn homepage for 2 weeks how could I miss it.
The fact is nobody can afford one and Ive seen hardly any content available.Like I said pre-fight hype.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 21. June 2006 @ 22:03
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oofRome
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22. June 2006 @ 00:28 |
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Oh yea it does. MPEG-4 is a better codec not only because it out preforms MPEG-2 by 2:1 (sometimes 3:1) but also because its video streams don't exibit image artifacts inherent to MPEG-1/2 video encoding schemes! I have read at the AVS forums that MPEG-2 encoders are sometimes tweaked to soften the picture to get rid of the artifacts. That obviously is a bad practice since fine detain is lost.
Wow. Looks like I have some updating to to in terms of Mpeg 2 vs Mpeg 4. I had always thought that although mpeg 4 had better encoding algorithm (ACE) error correction, etc, it was still under compression constraints in that it had data rates significantly lower than mpeg 2, thus making size (and perhaps convience) the main difference. Maybe I should listen to you a little more.
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Yes Blu-ray has more space but even 25 GB isn't enough when the audio tracks are uncompressed 6 Channel PCM at 24/96. Alot of people are wondering where the Special Features are.
Yes but are those PCM ratios confirmed?
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Why did they use PCM instead of Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD?
I see what you're saying. Basically, the movies in Blu-Ray were just a little too sloppy. I thought that the extra gigs of room would allow for a little less compression and format tweaking without affecting the quality of the picture/sound.
But thanks for all the info. :-)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. June 2006 @ 00:41
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diabolos
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22. June 2006 @ 13:16 |
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No the PCM ratios arn't offical, since no title lists the specs on the back, but my guess was made upon assuming Blu-ray would want to stay competitive. What I mean is that the advanced codecs sample at higher rates than CD (16/44.1) that is 24/96 for Dolby TrueHD and for DTS-HD. PCM at 24/96 would sound as good as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD, the main difference is that PCM would take up twice the space.
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I thought that the extra gigs of room would allow for a little less compression and format tweaking without affecting the quality of the picture/sound.
Since we are comparing MPEG-2 to VC-1, MPEG-2 will always be out classed. Increasing the bit-rate doesn't get rid of artifacts inherent in the encoding process.
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We have the samsung player on display at my BB and must say that I am still a vote for HD-DVD. Even though, the Blu-ray player is connected to the awsome Samsung 40" 1080p LCD vs. the HD-DVD player that was hooked up to the still good Westing House 42" 1080p LCD. The picture just looks soft to me for a $1,000 player.
Correction The Samsung BD player does support DD+ but it doesn't support Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD (according to the Samsung Web site!).
Samsung BD-P1000 Spec sheet...
http://www.samsung.com/Products/DVDPlayer/Blu_ray/files/bdp1000_f...
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Some very intresting poll results...
HD-DVD:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...&highlight=Poll
Blu-ray:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=690621
Ced
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. June 2006 @ 15:40
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diabolos
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24. June 2006 @ 07:55 |
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Found this Dolby audio format comparison table in the Dolby web site...
Ced
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 24. June 2006 @ 07:55
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dblbogey7
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24. June 2006 @ 14:09 |
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Thanks for the info Ced. It's interesting to note that Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby Tru-HD are only OPTIONAL for BluRay. It's also important to point out that Samsung's BDP-1000 does not support advanced audio codecs thru HDMI.
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Senior Member
2 product reviews
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26. June 2006 @ 12:46 |
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Thanks for the chart copied it for future reference. Also can mudearies be banned "again" his a really bad PS3 fanboy (the worst ever) he didnt even read the original post on this thread and spams all 3 the next gen console forums with blantant lies and weird theories on how the Ps3 with make PC go the way of the dinosaur. Argh Im not for Sony or against them but this guy gives them a bad rep.
"Cable thief is a victimless crime."
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Senior Member
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26. June 2006 @ 12:59 |
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Quote:
Also can mudearies be banned "again"
if you want somebody to be banned just report their post
then a mod will look into it and no need for anybody to get mad at anybody.
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DamonDash
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26. June 2006 @ 13:10 |
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Look guys there is not going to be any kind of fight Samsung and just about everyone else said that they are makeing a Mutiformat player that going to play Blu-ray & HD-DVD & also upconvert you regular DVD's.So this should put the rest this so called fight.Blu-ray & HD-DVD is not here to replace DVD its just here to enhance things.
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eatsushi
Senior Member
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26. June 2006 @ 14:06 |
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http://www.engadget.com/2006/06/21/samsungs-hd-dvd-blu-ray-combo-...
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...Sammy is already working on a dual-format, "universal" drive which could launch by the end of the year if HD DVD is as successful as Blu-ray ...
note the big IF - IF HD-DVD is AS SUCCESSFUL as BluRay...
Except for LG Electronics I don't see any other manufacturers even thinking of a combo player. Paging Ced....
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Blu-ray & HD-DVD is not here to replace DVD its just here to enhance things.
I beg to disagree. I'm of the opinion that once you've seen a film in glorious HD on an HD display - especially if it's 1080P - there's just no turning back. I don't really care which format wins as long as HD discs thrive.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 26. June 2006 @ 14:07
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diabolos
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26. June 2006 @ 15:53 |
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DamonDash
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26. June 2006 @ 16:27 |
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HD-DVD cant even go up to 1080p yet only Blu-ray.1080P tech is still new right now only a few TV's on the market can reach 1080p and you can count them all on your hand.
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dblbogey7
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26. June 2006 @ 16:57 |
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I agree with eatsushi.
Once you have experienced high def you will never want to watch your favorite movies on standard def again.
As Ced pointed out before HD-DVD discs are encoded in 1080P. The Toshiba player only outputs 1080i thru HDMI but my Sony SXRD scales the 1080i to 1080p and the results are simply amazing. The next gen players and displays should be able to output and accept 1080P thru HDMI.
About the combo players - it's interesting that Samsung and LG -both Korean companies- are the only ones considering combo players for now. I wonder why that's the case.
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mudearies
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26. June 2006 @ 17:02 |
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3 reasons Blu-ray should win.
1.almost twice the data of hdvd.
2. ahrder to scratch.
3.made by Sony.
the reason why Blu-ray will win. Sony Ps3.
the allmighty mudearies...
79% Sony Fanboy , 10% xbox fanboy , 11% Kidtendo fanboy. |
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dblbogey7
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26. June 2006 @ 17:17 |
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ROTFLMAO!
mudearies strikes again!
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DamonDash
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26. June 2006 @ 21:51 |
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Without any further ado, here are the reasons HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc will never turn into the dominant formats for digital media viewing:
1. Nobody likes false starts
With the debut of HD DVD at an underwhelming 720p/1080i, coupled with a buggy interface and a transport that makes boiling water seem like a speedy event, the entrance of high definition DVD into the mainstream came out of the starting gate lame and hobbled. For Toshiba to release a player that didn?t support true HD at 1080p (even though the software does), and with no lossless audio format to accompany the video track, the high definition wave was more of a ripple. Add to this the delay of HDMI 1.3, lack of market penetration and supply, and a dearth amount of software titles and you have a very unimpressive product launch.
2. Format Wars Don?t Sell Players
The only reason Sony?s Playstation, Microsoft?s Xbox and the Nintendo GameCube can sell so well simultaneously is because of the prevalence of excellent software titles. People want to buy the hardware just so they can play the software. This is not a format war ? it is choice, just like Chevy and Ford (and just like the gaming systems, some people have one of each). The high definition DVD formats, however are really just the same source material packaged in two different wrappers- not to provide choice, mind you, but because the two camps simply are too greedy to combine forces, and not innovative enough to drive two truly separate products successfully. Take careful note ? a format war is NOT competition, it is a hindrance and the bane of high definition DVDs.
3. HD DVD and Blu-ray are NOT Quantum Leaps in Technology
Consumers came over in droves when CDs were released back in 1982. The new format offered not only a new digital media, but also a way to instantly access tracks across an entire ?album?. Convenience, not technology, drove this format to almost instant consumer adoption. Fast forward a bit to 1997 when the first DVD player was released. Again, convenience, not technology, drove people to the market en masse. Unlike VHS tapes, the new DVD format was smaller, easily navigated and would not wear down over time like existing tape-based formats. Heck, the concept of a shiny plastic disc was new ? and quite frankly, it was the coolest thing to hit the technological shelf since solid state technology. In comparison, the high definition DVD formats, save the color of the business side of the disc, look exactly the same? and consumer confusion will surely follow.
What do the new high definition DVD formats offer consumers over DVD? Technology and more storage. Is this enough? Not on your life. Consumers, most of whom rarely know how to properly configure their players or home theater systems, are perfectly content with their current DVD players (and indeed some have just jumped on board to DVD in the last several years). While the potential for more extras and alternate endings exists due to increased storage on the new media, there is no compelling reason for consumers to migrate over to the new high definition DVD formats in large numbers.
4. Studios are Conservative, Greedy and Unmotivated
Studios are so conservative in their practices as to consistently miss out on market advances ? even those that can make them money (ie. Why is a computer company running the world?s most successful online music store?) The studios are not jumping on board the high definition DVD bandwagon just yet ? and you can see the lack of titles to prove it. If the movie studios decided that HD DVD or Blu-ray (or both) was to be the next dominant format, it need only to flood the market with software titles and present a plan to roll back on DVD production over the next 10 years. Even though this would grant them the secure format that they seem to want (HD DVDs and Blu-ray discs promise to be much harder to rip or duplicate) there is no indication in the industry that this is taking place or even in the works. The studios are making money hand over fist with DVD they cannot seem to bring themselves to seriously initiate a new, unproven technology ? even if it saves them from some other copyright headaches.
Add to this the fact that new titles are coming out at $30 a pop (and this down from an initial $35/title) and you have a really hard sell for consumers who are used to $15 titles at Wal-mart and the large electronics chains.
5. Playstation3 Cannot Save the World
We have consistently heard it said that the Playstation3 will ?jump start? the market by flooding it with millions of gaming systems capable of handling Blu-ray Disc software. The problem with this theory is that the PS3 is not being marketed as a home theater component and, if current installations prove the rule, most will not be situated in the average consumer?s living room. The result is that the PS3 will primarily be a *gasp* gaming system. Maybe I have a more traditional group of parents in my association of friends, but, taking into account #4 above, I do not think that Blu-ray will make any major leaps forward in market penetration as a home video format ? at least not anytime soon.
History is bearing this out, as the HTPC market, though driven hard by such manufacturers as Microsoft, Dell and HP, has struggled to find a place in the living room. Nearly every gaming system of the past: PS2, Xbox, and even the legendary 3DO system have been touted as ?set-top boxes? but in reality find themselves situated in more ?gaming-centric? environments playing? you guessed it, games.
6. Those Who Ignore History?
For years we?ve heard about the evils of MP3 and illegal downloading. All the while the RIAA and music industry had two formats that could have prevented any illegal copying ? at least for all but the most dedicated crackers: DVD-Audio and SACD. These formats proved to be higher quality than CD, presented much enhanced copy protection schemes and were easily used as alternative formats to CD. Yet both formats failed miserably to achieve any significant market penetration. Why? Without an artificial ?shove? from the record industry ? which never materialized ? technology alone is never enough to push a new format into the hands of consumers. In terms of convenience and ease of use, DVD-Audio and SACD offered nothing to consumers. In fact, they made listening to music more complex, since most hardware was unable to correctly decode and provide adequate bass management for the new formats.
Could these formats have succeeded? Absolutely. If the recording industry had presented a plan to phase out CDs and the ?format war? had been avoided (simply by the industry picking one format over the other) we would all be using DVD-Audio players and illegal downloadable music would be mostly confined to analogue rips or older music. Is this a stretch? Perhaps, but only because history shows us that corporate greed causes most companies to miss the long term economical gains over a short term loss of licensing revenues.
7. People Want Technology that?s 15 Minutes Ahead of Its Time
For many people, getting into HDTV is all about the widescreen and being able to see their DVDs with more clarity than ever before. When Billy Bob comes home with his new high definition 720p display, the difference between that and his older SD TV is amazing ? at least when he?s watching DVDs. You see, that?s the problem ? and it?s two-fold. While most consumers are still getting into the HDTV craze, they?re already impressed. And the difference between SD TV and HDTV is more amazing than the difference between 480p DVDs and 1080i downrezzed high definition discs.
The other side of the coin is the lack of HD content available on TV ? and this is a biggie. While Billy Bob is impressed by his DVD player, he is dumbfounded by his cable TV ? which actually looks worse than it did on his old set (mostly because it?s bigger). You see, nobody told Billy Bob that he?d have to get an antenna or subscribe to HD service from his cable/satellite provider. He was also not told that most of his favorite shows (Billy likes sitcoms and the Sci-Fi Channel) aren?t yet available in HD, regardless of technology or service provider. As a result, many Americans are underwhelmed or feel like they got burned by HDTV. The last thing they?re going to do is rush out and buy the next greatest thing.
8. Enthusiasts Are Getting Tired (and Smarter)
While some home theater audio- and videophiles have the money and inclination to rush out and buy the latest and greatest toys as soon as they are available, many more are becoming more cautious. Burned by 8-track, laserdisc, SACD, and DVD-Audio (and possibly soon non-HDCP HDTV) ? these war-weary consumers are going to think long and hard before jumping onto any new technological bandwagons. This leaves a shrunken market of even the bleeding-edge consumers, and that means even less sales to early-adopters.
9. A Skeptical News Media Doesn?t Help
I?ll admit it, we?re part of the ?problem? (though I?d like to think we?re saving consumers from making the next big mistake). An increasingly skeptical news media isn?t buying into the hype of HD DVD and Blu-ray, especially not after wasting millions of editorial words on DVD-Audio and SACD, only to watch the software and technology dwindle into obscurity. Even after almost 6 years, most consumers continue to proffer puzzled looks when these audio formats are mentioned. The new DVD formats are getting plenty of press, mind you, but with the Toshiba flop and lack of software, the fact that the Emperor has no clothes (at least not yet) is hard to avoid.
10. Broadband and IPTV to Compete?
With Verizon, AOL, Time Warner and others jumping to provide HD on-demand services for the consumer it is a very likely event that high definition DVD will be something that isn?t relevant in a service-directed marketplace. Add to this Apple Computer?s recent push for video downloads and we may find that consumers are far more interested in quantity, portability, and ease of use over high quality source material. Even with respect to high definition formats, downloadable files burned to consumer-supplied media may make data high definition DVDs more significant than the retail formats. This consumer model is being readied for testing in South Carolina?s head-end for Time Warner Cable this year.
So, while I certainly hope for the best, that?s my story and I?m stickin? to it. High definition is headed for a niche market at best, not an industry takeover.
By Clint DeBoer
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DamonDash
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26. June 2006 @ 21:55 |
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credit goes to dblbogey7 i got this off the link he provided.This is what i been saying all along there is NO WAR ! ! !
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 27. June 2006 @ 03:08
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dblbogey7
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27. June 2006 @ 03:56 |
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@DamonDash:
Thanks for giving me credit. Just to let you know, I posted the link to stir up some meaningful debate. It's also important to realize that although he does bring up some valid points, the whole article is just one man's opinion - one man's editorial. Obviously you agree with him.
I for one don't care if this war fizzles out or if one format wins. What I care about is that I can watch my favorite films in the best high def quality available not to mention the latest advanced audio codecs. We may become a minority niche market but it will be a great niche to be in. I'm sure eatsushi and a few others will agree.
Besides, if there is no war then mudearies will be very diasappointed. He wants his BluRay to win so much. LOL!
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eatsushi
Senior Member
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27. June 2006 @ 07:27 |
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I agree with dblbogey7.
We both want our movies in high def no matter what discs they come in - BD, HD-DVD, or the future HVD - Holographic Versatile Disc capable of storing 100 GB to a mximum 3.9 terabytes of data per disc:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc
That's an interesting editorial you posted. If you want a war try posting this part on the PS3 forums:
Quote:
5. Playstation3 Cannot Save the World
We have consistently heard it said that the Playstation3 will ?jump start? the market by flooding it with millions of gaming systems capable of handling Blu-ray Disc software. The problem with this theory is that the PS3 is not being marketed as a home theater component and, if current installations prove the rule, most will not be situated in the average consumer?s living room. The result is that the PS3 will primarily be a *gasp* gaming system. Maybe I have a more traditional group of parents in my association of friends, but, taking into account #4 above, I do not think that Blu-ray will make any major leaps forward in market penetration as a home video format ? at least not anytime soon.
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diabolos
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27. June 2006 @ 08:13 |
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@ DamonDash,
Now thats the kind of posting I like to through bombs at :)
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1. Nobody likes false starts
What false start? The first HD-DVD player doesn't support 1080p because most tvs don't support 1080p resolution (although 1080p@24fps can be turned on via a future firmware upgrade since it is supported in hardware, I'm sure of it). Lossless audio was supported on two titles; one launch title. HDMI 1.3 has nothing to do with the launch of HD-DVD or Blu-ray. All of the features that the player(s) supports can be used with-out HDMI 1.3.
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2. Format Wars Don?t Sell Players
Tell that to the creators of VHS (JVC).
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HD DVD and Blu-ray are NOT Quantum Leaps in Technology
What is this guy bableing about? He obviously has never used or seen HD-DVD or Blu-ray in action. The interactivity alone is worth replacing DVD.
These new formats are so advaced that 10 years from now we will still be seeing incredible pictures from these first titles because todays tvs arn't capable of reproducing all of the detail and color stored on the disc!
There is an excellent artical in WideScreen review this month that features Joe Kane (creater of Digital Video Essential) and the head of Micro$ofts VC-1 project. They explain all!
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6. Those Who Ignore History?
I have never supported the idea of people not appreciating quality. SACD and DVD-Audio are not examples of formats aimed at replacing a format. They are in a league all there own (and still are). SACD is alive and well in the homes of audio-philes and music studios that care about musical fidelity!
Anyway, history tells me that if something is good then it is good. DVD was not a national format when it debuted. The players cost more than HD-DVD players and available movies where not only limited in size they where also limited to certain locations! But in less than 5 years DVD was able to replace VHS as the major A/V format.
Did you know that Toshiba and Sony tried to have a similar format war back then two but a compromise was reached, the DVD format?
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Broadband and IPTV to Compete?
Now that is such a joke to me. The downloading/renters market won't replace the store market. Granted alot less movies will be bought in the future because of convienece (Netflix, MovieBeam, ect...). But for collectors and those that wish to reproduce movie theater quality in there home, downloading isn't an option, at least for now.
Plus movie theater quality will be different in 5 and then again in 10 years. Movie theaters are going digital and with that switch they are increasing the video resolution above filmes mathimatical limit and adding more speakers so that the studio master quality recording can be played back as intended!
For more info...
DCI:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Cinema_Initiatives
Just when you though 4K (4096 x 2160 @ 24fps) was state of the art...
http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/06/15/cinevision2066_demonstration/
Ced
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 27. June 2006 @ 08:25
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