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Returning My Samsung BDP1000 BluRay Player Tomorrow
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dblbogey7
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22. June 2006 @ 20:10 |
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OK guys - I've spent the last 72 hours agonizing over this but I finally decided to pack this thing up and return this monster tomorrow.
Comparing my Toshiba HD-DVD player and this Samsung BluRay on my Sony 60 inch SXRD I must say that the Toshiba wins hands down. I am totally disappointed with BluRays's picture quality and I'm beginning to think that the upconverted DVD picture even looks better. The BluRay movies I tried were XXX, Underworld, and House of Flying Daggers.
I think Ced's last post about BluRay using MPEG2 makes a lot of sense. I don't know if upgrading to HDMI 1.3 or using a more efficient codec will make a difference but I will hold off on any BluRay purchases for now and enjoy my HD-DVD player instead.
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diabolos
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22. June 2006 @ 20:21 |
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Your not in the minority... Did you see the poll results I posted yet?
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If not....
Some intresting poll results:
HD-DVD:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...&highlight=Poll
Blu-ray:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=690621
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I can verify that the Samsung's abiltiy to upconvert from SD DVD to 720p or 1080i is inferior to the Toshiba players abilities. This is surprising since the Samsung incorporates name-brand deinterlacing; The Faroudja Directional Correlational Deinterlacing (DCDi) technology. I guess having Faroudja on the box is just a gimick in this case.
Ced
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. June 2006 @ 20:22
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Senior Member
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22. June 2006 @ 23:44 |
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Wow it's great you could afford both...and so soon after they released...I'm surprised Your posting here with such funds lol.
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dblbogey7
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23. June 2006 @ 03:41 |
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Quote:
I'm surprised Your posting here with such funds
Sorry - I was under the impression that you can post to afterdawn no matter what your income was. If you look at Ced's link to the AVS forums above you will see a lot of early adopters like me who have both players.
Ced:
Those are really surprising poll numbers - only 22% are keeping their BluRay player and 78% are returning theirs. Do you think Sony will make improvements to their player (better codec, HDMI 1.3, multi-layer support) before its October release?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 23. June 2006 @ 05:12
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Senior Member
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23. June 2006 @ 08:26 |
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Quote:
Sorry - I was under the impression that you can post to afterdawn no matter what your income was. If you look at Ced's link to the AVS forums above you will see a lot of early adopters like me who have both players.
oh.. I wasn't getting on you.I just know there so expensive that's all.When I said "I'm surprised your posting here with such funds" I just meant if I had em both I wouldn't be here I would be playin with my new toys lol.Sorry bout that ,carry on.
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eatsushi
Senior Member
3 product reviews
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23. June 2006 @ 09:34 |
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Ced and dblbogey7: Thanks for the input.
It's gotten so bad that someone at AVS forums said that instead of "BluRay" they should call it "BluRRY."
It would be interesting to see if this is a harware issue, a software/encoding issue, or a combination of both. Will the initial releases look as bad on future machines? I'm still keeping my fingers crossed and my eye out for the Sony player promised this October.
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diabolos
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23. June 2006 @ 12:20 |
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Quote:
Do you think Sony will make improvements to their player (better codec, HDMI 1.3, multi-layer support) before its October release?
The only thing that is almost for sure is that the next gen Blu-ray players will have HDMI 1.3 support. HDMI 1.3 won't directly affect picture quality although sound quality will improve. The connecting receiver will have to support HDMI 1.3 aswell to reap the benifets of a digital Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD audio stream.
Multi-Layer support looks like it won't make it to the table to this time next year or later.
For some reason Sony isn't allowing the movie studios to use VC-1 or AVC (H.264) at the moment but that could change at any time. Someone said that Sony still holds licenses that pertain to MPEG-2 and that is why it is being used but I can confirm that for a fact. I think that it has to do more with Sony's use of out-dated software (thier out-dated software).
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It would be interesting to see if this is a harware issue, a software/encoding issue, or a combination of both. Will the initial releases look as bad on future machines?
I have mixed feelings about Blu-ray. I have seen it look good and very bad while I have seen HD-DVD look good and very good. It seems that with movies that BD has had trouble with alot of their 1080p transfers. Apparently "50 first dates" looks really good to most while "xXx" and "House of flying daggers" look horrible. I can confirm that our store tailer of "50 first dates" looks ok. I have noticed that on the BB demo disc that the 1080p Video sources look better than any type of 1080p film transfer.
It is my honest opinion that Blu-ray will eventually preform as well as HD-DVD in the future and that both formats will look better as time goes on since all the movie studios are being faced with a learning curve do to there new MPEG-4 tools. Sound should improve too as the new audio formats are finalised and utillized.
Ced
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 23. June 2006 @ 12:27
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akkuma
Junior Member
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23. June 2006 @ 12:42 |
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not trying to be funny but i apreciate guys like you posting this information so guys like me can make the right choice! thanx and keep ,up the good work!
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Auslander
AfterDawn Addict
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23. June 2006 @ 12:56 |
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hmmm...i've seen this coming for a long time. there's so many people to say "i told you so" to, but i must be mature :-)
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eatsushi
Senior Member
3 product reviews
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23. June 2006 @ 13:22 |
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Pardon me Auslander but I didn't get your post. What did you see coming for a long time?
Ced:
I just need a clarification:
Quote:
Multi-Layer support looks like it won't make it to the table to this time next year or later.
Does this mean that the PS3 BD drive will not support multi-layer BD's?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 23. June 2006 @ 13:59
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diabolos
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23. June 2006 @ 18:08 |
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I ment that there won't be any Multi-layer BDs available till this time next year since they are expensive and difficult to produce. But that statment isn't a fact its just my conjecture.
I'm not sure about support in hardware although it would be foolish to come out with BD-roms that can't play the new discs. I'm intrested in how the 1st gen players will support 50+ GB BD disc in the far future. Firmware upgrade I guess?
The PS3 spec sheet doesn't say anything about Multi-layer support but maybe its implied since its supported by everything classified as a BD-ROM. If someone could get to the bottom of this question it would be greatly appreciated!
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Pardon me Auslander but I didn't get your post. What did you see coming for a long time?
I think Auslander is talking about Sony dropping the ball... right?
Ced
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 23. June 2006 @ 18:20
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dblbogey7
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24. June 2006 @ 04:26 |
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So I've got my full refund and I'm left wondering what went wrong with the BluRay launch. As usual we've got some very good points from Ced and also eatsushi.
Most of the stuff I've read seems to point to a software issue. Here's a sample:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/blu-ray_initialreport.htm
Quote:
Overall, our initial experience with the Samsung Blu-ray player and the initial Blu-ray discs leaves us underwhelmed. The image quality does not measure up to what we would expect from a high definition source, and it certainly falls short of the hype. Though there is an obvious difference in quality between the three Blu-ray discs we have on hand, even the best of them falls short of the video quality of our HD-DVDs. Some of this is attributable to the fact that these initial Blu-ray discs are encoded in MPEG2, whereas the HD-DVDs are in VC1. Nevertheless, given the high resolution format, we should simply be getting better pictures on screen than those we are seeing.
We cannot yet determine to what degree the limitations may be in the Blu-ray discs versus the player itself. In point of fact, the Samsung BD-P1000 player may turn out to be terrific with higher quality media. We will continue to evaluate this player and more BD releases in the days to come. Those thinking of stepping into the world of high definition DVD may wish to wait until more is known, and more Blu-ray players and higher quality Blu-ray discs have come onto the market.
On the other hand, this review from digitalbits points out a hardware issue with regards to HMDI:
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents
Quote:
...it appears to me that the BD-P1000 in general isn't showing all of the detail that's in the image encoded on the discs, and it's not reproducing all of the color either. The bigger problem I'm having however, is that the HDMI output on the player looks fine on my Panasonic PT-L500U LCD projector at 720p resolution. But when I try to switch over to 1080i, I'm seeing major scaling errors - errors that I don't see at 1080i resolution from any other source via HDMI, including the Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player, which tells me that it's something to do with the BD-P1000's HDMI output specifically. It's extremely frustrating not to be able to evaluate this material at close to its best intended resolution.
The bottom line is that the picture quality of the inital BD releases was disappointing. The solution may come from a combination of improved software/encoding and hardware. Suffice it to say that this is just round 1 (as Ced put it in his post). Stay tuned for round 2.
Ced: Do you think the reason that Sony refuses to use VC-1 is because this codec was developed by Microsoft?
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diabolos
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24. June 2006 @ 05:50 |
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Excellent posting dblbogey7,
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Ced: Do you think the reason that Sony refuses to use VC-1 is because this codec was developed by Microsoft?
I don't think that is the case at all since the licensing for VC-1 is handled by SMPTE and not Micro$oft. If they didn't want to use VC-1 it shouldn't have been apart of the format at all. In case that is the reason though, AVC (the MPEG-4 alternative to VC-1, A.K.A. H.264) is also an option. But they have not use that codec either.
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But when I try to switch over to 1080i, I'm seeing major scaling errors - errors that I don't see at 1080i resolution from any other source via HDMI, including the Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player, which tells me that it's something to do with the BD-P1000's HDMI output specifically.
Are they saying that the same issues didn't show up with component video? If the problems extend to the Component Video connection too it would mean that nothing is wrong with HDMI connection, its just somthing in the player.
That artical makes alot of since now that I think about it. I think the Blu-ray camp know the Samsung player is crappy and only looks good at 720p. Why? because all the CC stores have it connected to a 720p Samsung DLP playing one of the worst review transfers, "House Of Flying Daggers." BB has it hooked up to the Samsung 1080p LCD but it doesn't look very good except for the video (non-telecine) footage.
Ced
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 24. June 2006 @ 05:57
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Auslander
AfterDawn Addict
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24. June 2006 @ 15:52 |
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right you are, diabolos.
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Senior Member
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8. July 2006 @ 10:26 |
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Quote:
"BluRay" they should call it "BluRRY
LOL HD DVD all the way.
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dblbogey7
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8. July 2006 @ 11:11 |
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I wouldn't call it BluRRY - just inferior in picture quality compared to HD-DVD. (At least the initial releases.)
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DamonDash
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17. July 2006 @ 08:46 |
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Okay we are in the first gen era Far as Blu-ray & HD-DVD its a litte to early to be judgeing.
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Senior Member
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17. July 2006 @ 17:13 |
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Ok i have been wondering this for a while, i have a 360 and I've read and herd alot about the new HD-DVD external drive that is supposed to be coming out later. I am pretty sure im supporting HD-DVD so I was planning on purchasing the drive when it came out (I don't remember reading a specific release date so if someone could give me an estimate on when they come out it would be nice). But since the 360's purpose isnt specificly to play HD-DVDs does that mean that the quality won't be near as good as the Toshiba Player. Also I know that as of now the 360 only uses component and VGA for a HD connection, so i know the quality wont be quite as good as if it used HDMI. I herd that they might come out with a HDMI cable for 360 but I know nothing more about it, so if someone could give me some more information on this it would be appreciated, thanks.
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Senior Member
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17. July 2006 @ 20:13 |
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It seems that you have all the info right now. They said they are releaseing it about same time as ps3 and it a RUMOR that they are going to put HDMI on 360 later on. Other rumor is that it's going to be inter HD-DVD out EXTER
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dblbogey7
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22. July 2006 @ 05:32 |
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This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. July 2006 @ 05:32
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Senior Member
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31. July 2006 @ 01:44 |
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Hey BR is still fairly new and still in its early stages, so give it time.
HD-DVD on the other hand is more similar in many ways to regular DVD's so MS and other companies have a better chance in releasing a first time good quality picture.
Dont critisize Sony, becuase dont forget who actualy invented DVD's and was in its main development!!! SONY.
"He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever." - Chinese Proverb BluRay.
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VJbob
Member
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30. August 2006 @ 13:55 |
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I'm confused. Is the VC-1 codec (as opposed to the MPEG2 in Blu Ray) that makes the Toshiba and HD-DVD player a superior DVD upconverter? I'm not sure if its the codec, Toshiba itself, or the HD-DVD format that allows for superior standard DVD upconversion.
If the issue is with the codec, is it then possible that when Blu-ray adopts a superior codec that it will have a superior DVD upconverter at 1080p (and will 1080p really make a visible difference compared with upconverted 1080i)?
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dblbogey7
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30. August 2006 @ 14:50 |
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The VC-1 codec has nothing to do with standard DVD upconversion. VC-1 is the codec used by HD-DVD's.
Maybe Ced can give us a quick tutorial on DVD upconversion, scaling and codecs. ;)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 30. August 2006 @ 15:19
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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30. August 2006 @ 17:54 |
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Toshiba is using high quality circuitry in their players, but they skimped a bit on build quality. Samsung, on the other hand, skimped on circuitry and built a more solid player. Up conversion depends on the internal chips chosen, not the decoder. Blu-ray has several things against it: 1) the first player has some problems with settings; 2) the discs are encoded in MPEG-2 rather than the more advanced MPEG-4; 3) the discs cost more to make and have much lower yield rates than HD DVD--double layer Blu-ray is extremely difficult to make; 4) players require a glass lens ($90 just last December) and near-field recording that made Sony put the first discs in a cartridge to protect them and now has to hard-coat them. Blu-ray aimed at 25GB because it had to--MPEG-2 took up too much capacity. HD DVD adopted DVDs structure, not its compression; and that meant it was easier and safer to make a 15GB disc rather than push the limits of molding technology.
Back in 1996 it was MMCD (Sony/Philips) vs. SD (NEC/Toshiba/Warner) that promised a format war. One side gave in to the other to reach consensus on what became the DVD. It was NEC/Toshiba/Warner that one that skirmish.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 30. August 2006 @ 17:54
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dblbogey7
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31. August 2006 @ 04:01 |
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Quote:
Toshiba is using high quality circuitry in their players, but they skimped a bit on build quality.
If you want better build quality you can get the Toshiba HD-XA1. It has the same internal components as the A1 but has better build:
* RS-232 port for control
* Motorized Front
* Motion Activated Backlit Remote
* Large insulated stabilizing feet
* All extruded aluminum construction (double wall)
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it was easier and safer to make a 15GB disc rather than push the limits of molding technology.
Practically all HD-DVD releases (maybe except the combo ones) are dual layer 30 GB discs.
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