|
|
|
Minnetonka costs $5k-Is there a cheaper way?
|
|
|
wilfredh
Newbie
|
23. June 2003 @ 12:28 |
Link to this message
|
|
I need to create lossless audio DVDs, Minnetonka Discwelder and Surcode costs almost $5K. Are there cheaper software
alternatives, yes I have read the posts!
Are these alternates VERY hard to use?
|
|
Advertisement
|
|
|
|
Senior Member
|
24. June 2003 @ 03:28 |
Link to this message
|
|
The Minnetonka discWelder Chrome/Surcode MLP package you are talking about is the cheapest way of authoring lossless DVD-A discs. The cheaper Minnetonka package, discwelder Steel, will not accept MLP files. The only other apps out therefor this are Sonic Solutions DVD Creator, which is $15k a throw.
Sorry about that, but at the moment that's your lot. DVD-A is an expensive game.
If you like, email me privately with your requirements as I am already geared up for this.
Very reasonable rates.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 24. June 2003 @ 03:29
|
|
wilfredh
Newbie
|
24. June 2003 @ 06:10 |
Link to this message
|
Thanks Wilkes, I was afraid your statement might be true, my 2 intensive weeks of i-net research led to this conclusion also. This is NOT the best idea, but I was hoping to cobble together several less costly alternatives to get my self started into creating lossless audio DVDs. Downside is the learning curve of all these will not be very apropos when I can finally buy the 2 "best" programs ...someday. What I've come up with so far is this: audio is taken from hardware into Aardvark DP2496, Ark software does waveform conditioning. Cakewalk takes conditioned audio thru sequencing...mini-authoring...into PCM files on hard drive. Monkeys Audio does lossless filesize compression and Winamp converts the MA "ape" output file back to PCM/WAV format. Last Nero does the DVD burn management. Not nearly as easy as Minnetonka, do you think it's workable?
|
|
tigre
Moderator
|
24. June 2003 @ 15:10 |
Link to this message
|
Seems too simple. I think a DVD-audio is NOT just a data DVD containing .wav/PCM files like you can burn with Nero.
As far as I understand what's written on Ahead's site even Nero 6 won't have a DVD-audio writing feature.
Another weak link: When using Winamp for Creating .wav files everything is truncated to 16 bit resolution. Use foobar2000 instead. It works with 64bit floating point internally and can write 32/24/16 ... bit .wav files (with noiseshaped dither applied if needed).
|
|
wilfredh
Newbie
|
24. June 2003 @ 16:26 |
Link to this message
|
Thanks guys--- I'll keep looking into this. Nero seems to say they can burn dvd-a in the upcoming version 6 (available July 18th). Looks like I'll have to do Minn. Discwelder Steel for starters (I can afford $500), and just give up filesize compression for now. Like Creative Audigy, dvd audio players contain the MLP decoder in their DSPs, so the audio file stream sent them to play is *probably* checked for correct format ("sanity checked") and rejected if something is wrong. MLP (Dolby Labs that is) requires a $royalty from each manufacterer that uses it--- part of the reason for the high $$s I complained of starting this thread. There HAS GOTTA BE A WAY to do this project correctly, for lots less $s, I'm convinced this Forum is how to get to these answers!!
|
|
wilfredh
Newbie
|
24. June 2003 @ 21:09 |
Link to this message
|
Sorry tigre, I just re-read the Nero announcement re their coming version 6, yes it does NOT seem to support DVD-A burning, please ignore my statement that it does! My research continues! Thanks for all the help.
|
|
tigre
Moderator
|
24. June 2003 @ 23:41 |
Link to this message
|
|
wilfredh, may I ask why you want to create DVD-As? Is it still about transferring vinyl to digital or something else? And what playback equipment do you already have?
I'm asking this because I'm thinking of an alternative.
|
|
wilfredh
Newbie
|
25. June 2003 @ 00:18 |
Link to this message
|
|
Hi tigre, yes my first projects shall be vinyl to DVD-A. There are a lot of these, they should be perfect for getting me up the DVD-A workflow learning curve, and I can retrace my screw-ups easily. I have a good HT system with a new DVD-A/V player to audition these---besides I want the vinyl & turntables out of my condo! If the cheaper CD-Rs could do 24/96 audio of course I would do that, so DVD-A is my way to go. Hmm, tell me about an alternative.
|
|
tigre
Moderator
|
25. June 2003 @ 01:48 |
Link to this message
|
Alternative:
1. Build a (silent) PC with 24/96 capable non-resampling, decent soundcard (e.g. some m-audio) and use it to play back your audio files.
For sound output you could either use the soundcard's digital out and en external D/A converter or let the soundcard do the D/A conversion.
About soundcard quality you'll find many interesting threads on http://www.hydrogenaudio.org using the search function.
With this solution you can store your files in any format you want (e.g. Monkeys Audio 24/96) on any media you want (data DVD-R, exchangable HDD ...).
2. AFAIK there has not been any hard evidence yet that anything above 16/44.1 improves the sound noticably. With "hard evidence" I mean double blind tests to avoid placebo effect.
If you want to test it yourself, I can tell you how. All you need is a device capable of 24/96 playback (e.g. soundcard) - and a high resolution test sample of music.
|
Senior Member
|
25. June 2003 @ 03:23 |
Link to this message
|
I have found that increasing the wordlength definitely increases the quality. As far as going to 96KHz, i'm not convinced at all as I am of the opinion what you are hearing - or rather NOT hearing - is the PPL filters in the converters. For DVD-A it is not necessary to go above 44.1 KHz, as 48/88.2/96/176.4 & 192 are all optional, although if you do wish to go to the higher rates then MLP encoding becomes compulsory else you exceed the bitrate of the players (currently 9.6MBPS).This generally only applies to multichannel audio though. I can't remember the exact bitrates at all combinations, but a quick search should reveal them.
Even in blind tests, it is easy to hear the difference between 16 bit and 24 bit audio, providing that the audio hasn't been "brickwalled" to gain extra volume. A great eye opener at the moment is the new version 4 digicheck application that ships with the RME HDSP9652 soundcard. There is a review of this card, which incidentally is the one I use, in the current Sound On Sound, and Madonna's latest CD is used. Measurements indicate that although the CD seems to be peaking at 0dbfs, it is in fact peaking at 2.3dbfs. This sounds impossible, but it is not. What happens is that CD's are overmaximized to the point of digital clipping to increase volume. This is controlled by extensive filtering and an option in digicheck allows you to remove the filtering to analyze the original signal which reveals itself to be squarewave. The point of this is that at higher bitrates the dynamic range is increased up to 144dB and overcompression becomes unnecessary - use the volume control on the amplifier as it was meant. 24bit audio is noticeably better when brickwall limiting is not used. All you need are high-quality converters and a decent set of speakers capable of the spl required.
As far as high sample rates go, a lot of people will quote Nyquist as justification, and invoke psychoacoustics as evidence for high frequency reproduction. AFAIK, there is no good evidence obtained experimentally to actually support this - wait for the flaming, wilkes! In fact the AES has stated that an upper limit of 60KHz is more than enough to satisfy even the pickiest audiophiles.
To summarize - work at 24/48 for DVD-Audio, use 24/44.1 if you have to and don't bother with 24/96 as there is no noticeable benefit.
|
|
wilfredh
Newbie
|
25. June 2003 @ 07:32 |
Link to this message
|
Hi guys, thanks for the expert opinions. I did some work on the term "PPL Filter", as a newbe I don't know the precise definition of that term, but my guess is it refers to the Low Pass IIR filter that follows the Digital Sampling circuitry (or code). If the sampling happens at 44.1 kHZ, the Nyquist (upper)limit on the sampled audio waveforms is at 22.05kHZ, but the real audio output problem is the exact shape of the filter response. No filter is ideally shaped, so some resulting audio "dirt" waveforms always result--- the filter design trick is to minimize these--- see <http://hjem.get2net.dk/jjn/quantfir.htm> for one discussion of "how-to" do this. The audio industry seems aware of this problem, considerable $$ and effort has gone into raising the sampling frequency so as to put the Nyquist limit far away from the top limit of the desired audio output (20kHZ). 96kHZ sampling puts that limit at 48kHZ, double++ our desired audio f-max. This really helps the wanted audio to suffer less from non-ideal filter response, as the "dirt" has 48kHZ (96-48kHZ) space to occur--- and that's above the 48kHZ roll-off of this non-ideal filter. In the end we hear audio at less than 1/2 of this particular filter's passband (48/20kHZ)so the "lousy" filter does a good job anyway. Can we hear the difference? Are there "blind" tests that prove it? I would answer that by saying the audio industry has adopted these sampling frequencies--- they must think so. That decision has caused them lots of problems, the multi-stream audio (5.1 & 6.1 channels)results in audio streams faster than real DVDs can handle (13000 vs 9600kBit rates), so that filesize compression (they picked MLP) HAS to be used to get 5.1/6.1 audio onto/out of the DVD along with video.
Well, thats why I picked 96k as my target for audio sampling, and 24 bits gives lots greater amplitude range from noise to 0db. Will I hear the difference (from 16b/44k) at 65 yrs. old? Probably not, but you can see I like audio and electronics so want to try it--- at least once!
Tigre's idea of using a dedicated computer for playback is a good one, however I would like to use my burned DVDs in my HT system, and in my car if I can find such a player. The dedicated cptr actually exists, it will have an Aarvark DP2496 sound card later this AM, I think that card fits your suggestion.
Sorry about the LONG winded response!
|
Senior Member
|
25. June 2003 @ 08:22 |
Link to this message
|
|
You are absolutely correct in most of what you say in your response. The only one I would take issue with is the use for a sampling rate of 96KHz. What this implies, at least to me, is that the industry is doing it's usual trick of trying to shove the Nyquist point so far out of normal earshot that it ceases to become a problem. There are some very good discussions on this in a book called "5.1 Surround Sound Up & Running" by Tomlinson Holman. Well worth the purchase price.
I also fully agree with the idea of a dedicated playback machine. We have taken this a step further by assigning a dedicated Audio machine - period. Nothing else on it except for Audio apps. DVD-A is definitely the way to go, and as we are talking about the increase in dynamic range with higher wordlengths as opposed to higher frequency response from increased sample rates, even a pair of 65 year old ears will hear the difference, assuming you have a decent set of loudspeakers.
|
|
wilfredh
Newbie
|
25. June 2003 @ 09:18 |
Link to this message
|
|
Hmm, I'll see about reading the book you mention. I cannot wait to hear the DVD audio from my AR90 speakers, I'm sure it will be fabulous--- if not, well that's why I'm starting out by duping my vinyl, I can re-fix my "screw-ups". The cptr I mentioned has HDDs in pull out trays, so I can tailor it exactly to audio tasks, and its Win2kPro, so should work right the first time. I'll try burns at various f-sampling rates to hear if any perceivable differences are in the audio, perhaps I won't hear any. I did order Discwelder Steel (*only* $500, sigh), so I can write accurately to the DVDs--- just NO compression, that's not a problem as I plan on 2 channel (stereo) burns anyway. It will be interesting to hear what the HT receiver does if I select a (synthesized) 5.1 audio output--- it might be really bad sounding (or good?). I'm interested in Classical music, so there are lots of things I have to learn, like normalization, levels, gaps, stuff I haven't thought of, etc. Great adventure, this all is!
Thanks again for the terrific ideas!
|
|
Advertisement
|
|
|
Senior Member
|
25. June 2003 @ 10:52 |
Link to this message
|
|
Enjoy!
Discwelder is a top program, and does exactly what you want.
Unpacking a stereo file to 5.1 is another matter though.......
Dolby ProLogic sort of works, but stereo will be great!
Don't forget to practise your first few burns to a DVD-R/W in case things go wrong.
|
|
