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Burning a specific Dvd @8X when it should be 16x
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AfterDawn Addict
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13. December 2005 @ 19:23 |
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Quote:
By the way, is it just my computer, or is every post missing the Word Wrap markers today
No, it's because Blighter's pics are too big.
V9 PS2, flip top, SMD, DVDLoader
Pioneer 107, ritek g05
DVD Shrink, DVD Decrypter, Nero This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 13. December 2005 @ 19:23
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Senior Member
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13. December 2005 @ 20:25 |
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smsmike
No, i don't want you to go out and spend money, really. I think we have things figured out here. DVD Info Pro does pif scans, and i think it has a free trial period (it has harmless ads whereas the paid for version doesn't have them).
http://www.afterdawn.com/software/video_software/dvd_tools/dvdinf... Notice i said free.. I don't want my advice to cost anyone money, rather i would like to save them money if i can.
All i was trying to get you to see with your own eyes, is that a 16x burn produces more errors than any other speed. On your own system, using your own testing methods, not in some lab, or outer-space. Yes, most of these errors, we will never be able to see on playback, but errors add up, and could cause your copy to freeze, or pixilate even if you don't get a CRC read error. You can see in my scans that the 16x burn has more PI Errors/Failures than the other speeds. I bet your system will have more PI Errors/Failures than the ones burnt at slower speeds. That will probably be true for almost everyone who tries this test. If i am wrong, i will admit it. For me, my tests have shown 16x burning is the Dumb way to burn if you care anything at all about the quality of your movies. I happen to think it is much smarter to wait a couple minutes more to get a better quality output. And really, whats the big hurry? 16x burn 5 minutes, 8x burn 6.5 minutes in my test. Large difference in quality for the savings of 1.5 minutes. Your only argument was speed is better, better quality, and i haven't seen that. You don't like the car speedo analogy, but remeber the saying speed kills? It kills your copy quality also. Maybe not to the point of not playing back, but it could reach that point for hundreds of ppl. And many are going to suspect their hardware/techniques are to blame, not the burn speed, as you said they must be dumb to not try it. Saving money is not dumb. Your way will cost the masses more money as you already wanted me to upgrade my drive (not everyone will have someone like you willing to pay for the upgrade, and the money is going to come out of their pocket)
I know i am probably wasting my time in trying to get this point across, but we have to keep in mind others will be out there reading this. Maybe my logic will get thru to some of them. They can do a test for themselves to see what happens when you burn at 16x. Maybe you will get some converts. Don't count me in your flock though. My wild side will remain at 8x.
@alkohol
Hi there buddy! :) I think you are right, we are transmitting a strong signal, but i think the receiver is turned off.
Yep, this thread looks like a really dead horse now. I have a cold, so i had better save my energy and get some sleep.
Rudolph with your nose so bright, wont you burn my discs tonight?
Die CMC Mag!!! |
AfterDawn Addict
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13. December 2005 @ 22:18 |
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Quote:
@alkohol
Hi there buddy! :) I think you are right, we are transmitting a strong signal, but i think the receiver is turned off.
@MaxBurn
Hmmm... me think so, LOL.
Anyways, here is my last scan from a genuine TAIYO YUDEN 8X DVD+R (Made in Japan - Yuden Co. Ltd) that I've just burned it at 4X a while ago. Unless somebody can prove me wrong that burning at 4X is NOT on par with burning at 16X, and or burning at 16X is far more superior than burning at 4X, otherwise I'm done here.
Again, here's my last message to all of y'all "newbies" that's reading this (or who may concern), especially if you value the longevity and quality of your backups, then; "Don't burn at 16X period...!!!"
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Moderator
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13. December 2005 @ 22:57 |
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i was already done with this thread, but i'll finish by pasting most of what i said in one of my first replies. And let's hope our 'users' ie the ppl who come here for help are not insulted any further due to not having supercomputers with which to burn.
the majority of ppl who come to us with burning woes do NOT have really fast sleek systems with big power supplies.
And of course i'm here to look out for the endless newbies, with burning woes. There's a difference with recommending what works for oneself and advocating that everyone else do what i do because 'i have success so therefore everyone HAS to have the same success as me'.
You see, it's all about offering advice in a balanced way, ie it's all in how we give advice to others that's important here.
i myself am totally into sorting out problems from the ground up, ie the Nero logs are a case in point. I dissect a logfile and work it up from there. I virtually always recommend 4x, partly from my own experiences but also from gazillions of other ppl's woes, because it's important to get ppl up and working, BUT very importantly to get them working CONSISTENTLY. it's just basic common sense and basic troubleshooting. And educating them as best we can, ie i assume ppl know nothing about burning/PC's, and write my replies accordingly. However i teach them enough to get them working while educating them as best as i can in a few short paragraphs, but it's not my job in life to teach ppl everything!.
Once they're up and burning for a while, the onus is then on them to step back and think "hey, i'm working fine now, those guys got me sorted, i'm fedup waiting 15mins for a 4x disc to burn, i know a bit about what i'm doing know, i'll ramp it up to 6x or 8x maybe)".
Cautious i may be, either in my own burning and/or in my advice to others, but not everyone out there can burn media at it's rated speed, Period.
Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules *** |
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Discmania
Senior Member
2 product reviews
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14. December 2005 @ 03:12 |
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The investment in Nero 6 or 7 full version is worth every penny. I would like to see your your results.
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LdyAstral
Newbie
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18. December 2005 @ 06:43 |
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Hi. I guess I'm one of your newbies, because not only does it say so under my name, there was quite a bit of this thread that appeared suspiciously like Greek to me.
However, the computer I must of necessity use hates me with a passion that could rival Hera's, so I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it had changed some setting or other out of malicious spite, just for the amusement of watching me try and fix it.
This site has been a saving fortune, because I don't know if I could have been held accountable for my actions if I hadn't found so many answers here when I did.
I have successfully burned several DVDs, but the ratio of coasters I've made to DVDs I've made is quite embarrassing. From the last several hours I've spent here, I believe I might be able to get help figuring it all out... or at least manage to resolve most of the operator errors... :-/
I wasn't even sure which questions to start with (and yes, I did make sure I searched the site first. I've been here since some time yesterday afternoon, and learned quite a bit, and figured some things out on my own... And I'm sure that the rest of the answers are here somewhere, but if I haven't found them by now, I probably never will on my own) I would have started a new thread, but I got caught up in this one, and after spending the last three hours reading, I think I just might be a little more confused than I was before. At least with this I can narrow down my bewilderment to a more specific area.
Everybody seemed to be referring to Nero CD-DVD Speed, so I figured I should get it too: http://www.cdspeed2000.com/go.php3?link=download.html#nerodvdspeed
I've been trying to learn how to use it, but it's really confusing. For one thing, I was using the screenshots that had been posted as a reference point, and I can't figure out how you get the speed a disk was burned at.
Here Blighter posts several screenshots... the first burn at 4x, and the other three at 16x. But I can't figure out how they're different? They all look like 4x to me: http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_jump.cfm/265933/1526556
And here Maxburn posts his burns of 16x, 4x, and 8x respectively, but they all look like 8x to me: http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_jump.cfm/265933/1527702
I know I'm missing something, but I just can't seem to figure it out. If someone could take pity on a hopeless newb and enlighten me? Perhaps then I could begin to grasp the barest hint of understanding, and be able to avoid putting my fist through this gods-be-damned son of a typewriter!
I would be ever so greatful...
~ Lady Astral
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Moderator
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18. December 2005 @ 06:47 |
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@LdyAstral - hi and welcome. i personally would not pay much heed to quality scanning as it's better to get the basics sorted, then maybe attack things like quality scanning later..
Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***
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AfterDawn Addict
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18. December 2005 @ 06:52 |
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@LdyAstral
These are just scans to check the amount of errors and whether the disks are good quality or bad burned at different rates. As creaky states get the basics down first. Not every drive will work with Nero CD/DVD Speed at least my internal won't and my USB drives aren't recognized. If you use good media, have a decent burner and start with 4x speed to burn and if you have no problems then go to 8x you should be fine. If you are having difficulties then post your problem there are loads of peeps to help.
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Moderator
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18. December 2005 @ 06:54 |
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cheers buddy. i was pondering how to expand on my short reply, couldn't think what to write next
Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***
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AfterDawn Addict
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18. December 2005 @ 06:56 |
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@creaky
Just thought I would expand a little on your good advice as usual :)
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Senior Member
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18. December 2005 @ 07:58 |
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@LdyAstral hi :) and welcome
i to had finished with this thread, but, i couldn't allow you to fall into the trap of burning at more than 1/2 the max speed of your media (at the beginning i would burn at 4x max)
take note of what the guys below suggest
creaky... the king of Nero logs (he can turn them inside out..and tell you pretty much whats going on/wrong. logs don't lie)
alkohol...the scan man..he loves 'em (he can read them stood on his head)
andmeer... a wise head on a young body
arniebear...the careing shareing bear. well worth listening to
MaxBurn...the man with the Killer Cat. always good advise
if you want to know about media
the DOC (kivorry666) Taiyo Yuden (what he doesn't know about Ty isn't worth knowing)
and creaky for Verbatim
me (i just lurk)
just a little to help guide you through this jungle called AfterDawn
 gif by ireland
we cant help if you wont help yourself |
Member
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18. December 2005 @ 08:08 |
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Now that Plextor has come out with there 18x dvd burner, I suppose the argument needs to be 4x vs 18x.
According to some of the arguements here Plextor spent money to bring us this 18x so if we buy it we have to burn at 18x.
On a side note, if you are just burning a dvd with a bunch of files on it, does the burn speed even matter?
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LdyAstral
Newbie
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18. December 2005 @ 09:01 |
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@Creaky
Quote:
hi and welcome.
Thank you.
Quote:
i personally would not pay much heed to quality scanning as it's better to get the basics sorted,
Like arithmetic? Quote:
then maybe attack things like quality scanning later..
I like your choice of phrasing, and I completely agree. I am, however (fortunately or unfortunately, depending upon how you look at it), OCD, and I knew it would bridle me until I said something. I shall be able to focus on the matter at hand now.
@arniebear
Quote:
These are just scans to check the amount of errors and whether the disks are good quality or bad burned at different rates. As creaky states get the basics down first.
Like peacocks trying to preen for mates before they can walk?
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Not every drive will work with Nero CD/DVD Speed at least my internal won't and my USB drives aren't recognized. If you use good media, have a decent burner and start with 4x speed to burn and if you have no problems then go to 8x you should be fine. If you are having difficulties then post your problem there are loads of peeps to help.
I will, if I can't figure it out on my own. I've been up for much too long, and I have to work for the next four nights, so I most probably won't be seen 'til then... Then with the holidays coming up... Well, it might be a while.
@gurnard
Quote:
creaky... the king of Nero logs (he can turn them inside out..and tell you pretty much whats going on/wrong. logs don't lie)
alkohol...the scan man..he loves 'em (he can read them stood on his head)
andmeer... a wise head on a young body
arniebear...the careing shareing bear. well worth listening to
MaxBurn...the man with the Killer Cat. always good advise
if you want to know about media
the DOC (kivorry666) Taiyo Yuden (what he doesn't know about Ty isn't worth knowing)
and creaky for Verbatim
me (i just lurk)
just a little to help guide you through this jungle called AfterDawn
*giggle* I've wandered into the deep, dark woods, and now look... I've found the seven dwarves.
yawn
But it will have to wait for another day... my bed calls.
Goodnight, boyos... ;-)
~Lady Astral
"Any piece of information's usefulness derives, to a depressing degree, from the cognitive ability of the user who's using it."
~Google
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
~Qui-Gon Jinn
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AfterDawn Addict
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18. December 2005 @ 15:16 |
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@LdyAstral
Welcome to the friendly AfterDawn Community. As for newbies, I've always recommend them to only burn at 4X with high quality media like genuine Taiyo Yuden, Verbatim "Advanced Azo" or "DataLifePlus" and Maxell (Hitachi Corp. - made in japan). When they're fully content, have more experiences and have more confidence, then they can go a little higher like 8X for experiment. However, I wouldn't recommend going beyond 8X though. Chances are you're more than likely to produces "coasters" and your backup will be futiled down the road.
Keep in mind to make sure you're always staying on top of your dvd burner's firmware. It plays a very important role when it comes to dvd burning -- your firmware is like a brain that tells your burner where to write, it will read/diagnose the blank media and verify the media codes in prior to the burning process. If your firmware is out of dated, then you're more than likely to create a "coasters" when burning.
With that being said, first start at 4X with some high quality media as mentioned above and when you've acquired more knowledge you can do more at your own desire speeds. Again, I highly doubt that you're going to get any better results when burning at higher speeds though. I've been burning over a thousand backups in the past experiencing 2X, 4X, 6x, 8X, 12X, 16X and still burn on a daily basis. I've come to conclusion that, the higher speeds you burned the inferior "quality scores" you're going to get, plus you'll have more chances of producing "coasters" in the end.
In contrast, people are entitled to their own preferences and choices, but keep in mind that "quality last, quantity and speeds don't last."
Happy burning!!!
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Senior Member
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20. December 2005 @ 11:28 |
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LdyAstral
Listen to what alkohol and the other regular members said here. Quality counts, speed kills. This thread started out as sort of a debate on why to burn at a specific speed. We thru up some charts and stuff to back our claims (well, those of us that wanted to prove the point with science, not just words). In the end you have to make up your own mind, but burning at less than max speed is always sound advice. Using good media, burning at 4x, and not multi-tasking while burning, are still good basics to start from. Get your feet wet with some good burns in your belt, and then you can start testing the limits. You can learn lots of stuff here, some of it good, and some of it bad. The ppl who lead you to a tiny stack of coasters, are probably the ones who want you to have success. The ones who say go for the maximum burn speed, probably don't really care if you fail, and have their own agenda going on. I really don't care what speed ppl burn at, as long as they are happy with the outcome. When they come here and start complaining about not getting a good burn, I am still going to recommend slowing the burn speed down as one possible fix. It works for most ppl, when running at the max burn speed fails for many ppl.
I'm glad the argument didn't keep raging on, as i have been away for a while. Not that you guys couldn't handle it without me :) .
Die CMC Mag!!!
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dvd_craze
Member
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20. December 2005 @ 11:39 |
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is burning at 6x alright too or stay at 4x?Can anyone recommend a good external hard drive for laptop?
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jonnyftm
Newbie
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27. December 2005 @ 05:39 |
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I'm registred to this forum since a while. I'm active on many other forums, so never posted here.
Reading this thread, i couldn't resist.
It is the nice and perfect illustration of how ignorance and arrogance makes people blind and stupid.
Well, I'm talking about fellows like "smsmike", and some others.
Hey man, please, think at it deeply: How can you say, confirm, insist and be sure your burnt media are perfect, while you even didn't ever know what a quality test is, or what tools to use, and furthermore, you even admit you don't have such a tool.
So, stop claiming evidence, while you just ignore what you're talking about. Get some more modest.
I doubt my words will even fall in the ears of such people blinded by their ignorance.
Anyway, Nero CD-DVD Speed is a free standalone and doesn't need any Retail/Trial/Bundled Nero version installed.
I won't post my logs, they are like all competent people know: worse results as speed increases. Most than quality score, it is the maximum PI - PE errors that counts.
Good luck testing all your crappy media you're burning at 16x :-)
I'm sure we'll never see a true graphic from you. By the way, just to teach you some more, media quality test results won't be the same now and after 6 months from your burns. Bad burns/bad media will be altered in even 4 weeks with lower results than the initial scans after burning.
This thread should be modded: no false claimings, only posts based on actual scans.
My first and last post in this room of ignorance. I let you debate alone.
Goodbye
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Senior Member
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27. December 2005 @ 06:03 |
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@dvd_craze
6x will probably be ok. If you want to force 4x burn, try using DVD Decrypter if you can still find it out there. It has its own burn engine, and you tell it to go 4x, and it will. I burn anywhere from 4-8x depending on how i feel, and what program i am using. Nero has a setting where 6x is the lowest speed for me, and it burns those moives fine. You can always do a Nero disc quality scan of your different burn speeds and see what your system likes. In my case, 8x burning produced less errors than burning at 4x. But, that was only for this specific situation. Yours could be much different. The only way to know for sure, is to test this yourself.
I haven't used an external burner in a few years, so i can't recommend something specific for you.
@jonnyftm
You are sooo right! Sometimes logic doesn't work, and we can't save those ppl from themselves. The best bet is to stick with the suggestions from the regular members here. If someone claims burning at 16x produces less errors than burning at 8x, or 4x, THEY SHOULD PROVE IT, or be silent. Words will not prove the 16x burning is better case here. And scans are not meaningless, they at least show something repeatable. No use yelling at deaf ppl though. I proved this case to myself, and my opionion matters more to me, than the opinion of some person on the web. We all have to wade thru the BS to get to the real truth. Some things can be repeated for everyone willing to test media burn speeds. Burn at 4x and do a scan. Burn at 16x (if the disc makes it) and do a scan. I bet you will see more errors on the 16x burn. Not less, more. And you saved maybe a minute and a half off a "conservative" burn. It cost you in quality. Don't belive me, just try it yourself. Not you jonnyftm, i know you understand what is going on. That was for the general audience out there.
Die CMC Mag!!!
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Senior Member
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27. December 2005 @ 06:20 |
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@ jonnyftm hi :)
welcome and well said
new blood = new ideas...new opinions...new knowledge, are always welcome
gif by ireland
we cant help if you wont help yourself |
AfterDawn Addict
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27. December 2005 @ 18:32 |
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nicely reiterated maxburn, kudos to ya~ :)
u 2 gurnard, never hurts to have some fresh blood, i mean, another opinion on the matter :)
docTY~
happy holidays and happy new year to you both...burn on my buddies...burn on~
Recommended Media:
Taiyo Yuden 4x dvd-r TYGO1/ 8x dvd-r TYGO2/ 8x dvd+r YUDEN000T02/ 16x dvd+r YUDEN000T03
Verbatim 8x dvd+r MCC003
Verbatim dvd+r DL (MKM001)= flawless no compression backups
"Do Yourself A Favor, Use The Good Stuff
TY & Verbs 4 Life~ :)" ~docTY~
"Its better to be quiet and appear stupid, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
I am always prepared to recognize that there can be two points of view - mine and one that is probably wrong - John Gorton
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herplvr
Newbie
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29. December 2005 @ 00:10 |
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Sweet, I have been wondering why my DVD backups sucked. They would pixelate or stop for a few seconds every now and again. I didn't get a pic of the 16x one, but the quality was 10 with 28 failures! =/
Disc from same spindle, just burnt at 4x. The spindle is: Verbatim 16x Advanced AZO, DVD-R's.
Picture:
Anyhoo, this is the first I burnt, however I have redone my LOTR Set all over and after 2 Disc's not one hiccup. Glad I stumbled on this thread when I was googling.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 29. December 2005 @ 00:11
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AfterDawn Addict
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29. December 2005 @ 00:50 |
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@herplvr
I have the same Verbs "Advanced Azo" as yours, except mine are DVD+R simply because I love to book type them into DVD-ROM for one of my 3 years old all region Shinco dvd player.
Now that you've learned your lesson, keep up the good work and just burn them anywhere from 4X - 8X only -- remember don't go beyond 8X period.
Happy Holidays!!
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herplvr
Newbie
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29. December 2005 @ 01:04 |
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What do you mean book type them? What does that do and why would I want to?
Sorry, just got the burner this past July and haven't really delved into burning much other than buying DVD Shrink and backing up my DVD's after extracting them with DVD Decrypter.
Only reason I started doing this is because I don't want my girlfriends 3 year old daughter chewing on my original dvd's again, provided she can even get her hands on any dvd's now.
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Senior Member
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20. January 2006 @ 12:48 |
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Die CMC Mag!!!
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mackdl
Senior Member
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21. January 2006 @ 08:01 |
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I have followed this thread with interest. Firstly, I don't need fancy tests to tell me that the faster speeds don't work. I do find this tests intriguing, so please continue. "Playback" is what's important to me. I have personal experience with media using 12x speeds. I do have many dvd players to test, and 12x speeds don't work in ALL players.
I wish to caution other members having playback issues. In my personal experience, using the "backup" to redo will NOT resolve playback issues. You need to use the "original" and then use slower speeds and good quality media.
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