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gotpitino
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11. June 2007 @ 01:34 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
What is the difference between the 2? Is there an audible difference that can be heard?
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eatsushi
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11. June 2007 @ 07:57 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Excellent questions.

What's the difference between the two?

Bitstream

Bitstream audio refers to a succession of 1's and 0's transmitted from a player typically to a receiver or A/V preamp. The receiver then decodes this information and amplifies the resulting audio signal to drive your speakers. This information can be transmitted either through SPDIF (optical or digital coax) or HDMI connections depending on the compression method.

Bitstream audio as it comes on disc is usually compressed in 2 ways:

Lossy compression such as:
Dolby Digital
Dolby Digital Plus
DTS
DTS HD High Resolution

Lossless compression such as:
Dolby True HD
DTS HD Master Audio

PCM

PCM or Pulse Code Modulation "is a digital representation of an analog signal where the magnitude of the signal is sampled regularly at uniform intervals, then quantized to a series of symbols in a digital (usually binary) code." (From the PCM WIkipedia article.) There are compressed forms of PCM audio but the PCM soundtracks that you see in BluRay discs are uncompressed.

Linear PCM or LPCM can be included on the disc itself or the player can derive LPCM from other digital tracks and transport this through the player's digital connections.

Is there an audible difference?

Given the right equipment and the right conditions a compressed lossless Dolby True HD soundtrack should sound the same as an uncompressed LPCM soundtrack.

See this comparison between the two on "The Departed." The LPCM soundtrack is on the BluRay disc and the Dolby True HD trak is on the HD DVD disc:

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/departed.html

Quote:
Now, how do the PCM and TrueHD tracks compare? Given this historic opportunity, I decided to conduct a little experiment. I invited a friend over, who is a big movie and music buff, but not particularly technical. He knows good audio when he hears it, yet doesn't know a PCM from an RPM from R.E.M. In other words, he's Joe Six-Pack with a great ear. Anyway, together we conducted a "blind" audio test -- we select ten short sequences from the film, and listened to a compare of each. We took turns firing up each scene, and selecting which one sounded better, with no knowledge of which sample was the Blu-ray and which the HD DVD.

After writing down our answers on little scraps of paper (note that we didn't throw them into a hat -- we aren't that dorky), the results were interesting. Out of the twenty comparisons (ten for him, ten for me), we could only detect differences on four scenes total. But of those four, we both always preferred the PCM track, if only a smidgeon. For example, there is a scene in involving an attempted trade bust between the Costello character and a Chinese gang. There is a sound of a gun firing that we went back over a few times, and as silly as it sounds, the force and impact of the sounds was a shade more realistic in PCM. Also a beneficiary of the uncompressed mix is the music, as this is a film brimming with rock songs. The first scene we picked featured the Rolling Stone's "Gimme Shelter," and again the PCM track boasted a slightly more spacious feel to the music in all channels -- as if the very highest end of the frequency range was more palpable.

Granted, these are very slight differences and subjective preferences. Had we not blindfolded each other (figuratively speaking, of course) and been flipping back and forth between discs like one of those old Coke-Pepsi commercials, such deviations likely would have been imperceptible. It is also certain that the average listener wouldn't be able to tell the difference without possessing the ears of a dog. Still, in this case I give a slight edge to the PCM track, though a comparison between a single title hardly qualifies as the final word. If nothing else, it made me realize that if all the studios dumped this dueling audio format business and went all-PCM, I can't say I would be likely to complain...

As long as the Dolby True HD soundtrack is decoded properly, the resulting LPCM signal should be exactly the same as the uncompressed LPCM track or the studio master.

Maybe Ced or anyone else can add to this?

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 11. June 2007 @ 10:17

gotpitino
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11. June 2007 @ 08:19 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Excellent Information, Thanks.

But I guess my ultimate question is this.

I've ordered the Toshiba HD-A2 and the Onkyo TX-SR805.
Now being that the HD-A2 is not HDMIv1.3, would the TrueHD or DD+ from the A2 sound just as good as the TrueHD and DD+ from, say the XA2 which is HDMIv1.3?
eatsushi
Senior Member

3 product reviews
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11. June 2007 @ 08:39 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
You can get Dolby True HD from the A2 since it can decode this format and transmit this to the receiver using HDMI or analog 5.1. You don't need HDMI 1.3 to do this.

For the XA2 you have 2 choices: (1) you can let the player decode the Dolby True HD soundtrack and send it to the the receiver like the A2 above. (2) you can send the undecoded signal to the receiver using HDMI 1.3 and let the Onkyo do the decoding.

I'm not sure of the specs or what audio decoding chip the A2 has but as long as it does its job there should be no or only minimal difference between the audio as decoded by the A2 and the XA2.


ADDED:

Here's a comparison of LPCM and Dolby True HD on the same disc!:

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/ghostrider.html

Quote:
'Ghost Rider' comes to Blu-ray with dual uncompressed PCM 5.1 surround (48kHz/16-bit/4.6mbps) and Dolby TrueHD 5.1 surround (48kHz/16-bit) mixes. It's an embarrassment of riches, and quite frankly probably an unnecessary overload aside from the coolness factor in getting two high-resolution audio formats on the same disc. Both are lossless codes, and the only real difference is that PCM is a locked bitrate format while Dolby TrueHD is variable bit rate (peaking around 3.5mbps in this case). So pick your poison, and either way you're not likely be disappointed -- both deliver the goods with aplomb.

Aside from the PCM sounding a little louder than the TrueHD, after level matching I couldn't discern a difference between the two. 'Ghost Rider' has very aggressive sound design and is a treat either way. The rears are pretty much a bulldozer, with a wall of discrete effects almost constant in the action scenes. Imaging is airy, the 360-degree effect usually awesome and directional effects localized with great accuracy.

Dynamics are also superlative, with palpable tonal realism across the entire spectrum. Motorcycles roar, Wes Bentley overacts wildly and Peter Fonda mumbles between puffs of smoke, yet I could understand every last word. Low bass is also a real kicker, with some tones so deep you might want to bolt your subwoofer to the floor. Granted, there is no subtlety here, but the few straight-ahead dialogue scenes do usually have at least some minor ambiance in the rears so the track is consistently engaging. Be sure to play this one very loud -- in either PCM or TrueHD -- and you're sure to enjoy some great demo material.

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 12. June 2007 @ 09:15

diabolos
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13. June 2007 @ 08:08 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Quote:
You can get Dolby True HD from the A2 since it can decode this format and transmit this to the receiver using HDMI or analog 5.1. You don't need HDMI 1.3 to do this.
You mean the HD-XA2? The A2 doesn't have 5.1 analog outs. The simple answer their is no difference in PCM tracks of the Dolby TrueHD tracks. If there where the Dolby TrueHD wouldn't be all that lossless.

HD players that don't have HDMI 1.3 support can only send the Dolby TrueHD (or any advanced audio codec, i.e. DD+, DTS-HDMA lossless, ect...) signal, to a receiver that supports HDMI audio, as M-PCM (Multi-Channel Pule Code Modulation, uncompressed) with as many channels and at the same fidelity as the source (i.e. 24 bit/192KHz with 7.1 channels).

Quote:
I'm not sure of the specs or what audio decoding chip the A2 has but as long as it does its job there should be no or only minimal difference between the audio as decoded by the A2 and the XA2.

To my knowledge they use the same 32-bit "SHARK" processor by Analog Devices.


How HD players work (the audio side):
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology...eHD_avrs_1.html

-Ceddie Ced

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 13. June 2007 @ 19:19

eatsushi
Senior Member

3 product reviews
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13. June 2007 @ 08:20 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Quote:
You mean the HD-XA2? The A2 doesn't have 5.1 analog outs.
I stand corrected Ced. The HD-A2 does not have 5.1 analog outs. The Dolby True HD can be sent thru HDMI on that model. I must have been thinking of the A1 (which I still have).
diabolos
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18. June 2007 @ 07:37 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Its all good. Yea, the A-1 was a great deal for that reason. I don't know why Toshiba doesn't have them on the A-20 as jut about all of the Blu-ray players have 6CH analog outputs. I guess with the issue the XA-2 is having it would have been a bad move. I think they should come out with a XA-20 model that has everything a player could offer for $1,000 and mark everything else down including the 360 add-on!

Thanks for reading my rant,
Ced

gotpitino
Newbie

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18. June 2007 @ 08:15 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
About the Highdefdigest review of The Departed on Blu-ray and HD DVD. Since no players can actually send the signal bitstream.
Weren't they just comparing PCM to PCM except on different formats?

Does this question make sense?

I mean, nobody is going to be able to compare HD DVD's with TrueHD to Blu-ray's with uncompressed 5.1 until TrueHD can actually be bitstream'd to the receiver, right?
diabolos
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18. June 2007 @ 19:37 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Quote:
I mean, nobody is going to be able to compare HD DVD's with TrueHD to Blu-ray's with uncompressed 5.1 until TrueHD can actually be bitstream'd to the receiver, right?
No. As Dolby TrueHD isn't suppose to sound better anyway. The bar is PCM and Dolby TrueHD should reach it without a problem as it is suppose to be lossless.

What I mean is that Dolby TrueHD doesn't contain any more sound than PCM does. Dolby TrueHD just uses less space to accomplish the same thing as PCM. The thing to worry about are the specs (i.e. 16 bit/48 KHz).

-Ceddie Ced

eatsushi
Senior Member

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19. June 2007 @ 07:22 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Ced is correct. What they're comparing are the same exact product but in 2 different packages.

Quote:
Since no players can actually send the signal bitstream.
Actually the XA2 and the PS3 have HDMI 1.3 so they can send the Dolby True HD and DTS HD MA bitstream to a receiver that can decode these signals.

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 19. June 2007 @ 08:14

Junior Member
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27. July 2007 @ 12:22 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
So do I undersand correctly. Do you have to use HDMI to get the uncompressed PCM sound?

Billy
error5
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27. July 2007 @ 15:19 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Quote:
Do you have to use HDMI to get the uncompressed PCM sound?

Since we're in the HD DVD section I'll try to discuss how to get lossless sound from the current players. Practically all lossless sound from HD DVD discs are in the form of Dolby True HD soundtracks. The few discs out there that have DTS-HD Master Audio are usually EU imports.

All HD DVD standalone players can decode Dolby True HD soundtracks. There are two ways to enjoy Dolby True HD:

1. HDMI

All the current 1st and 2nd generation standalone HD DVD players can use this connection. The player extracts the Dolby TrueHD soundtrack from the disc. This signal is then decoded and mixed in multichannel (uncompressed) PCM. This can be transmitted through HDMI version 1.1 or better. If you use this method you have to ensure that your receiver not only has an HDMI input but should also have the ability to handle the multichannel PCM signal. Some receivers have HDMI inputs but ignore the audio signal and act only as switchers - i.e. the Pioneer 1016tx.

2. 5.1 Analog Connections

The following standalone players have 5.1 line-level analog outputs: HD-A1, HD-XA1, HD-XA2. In this case the player again extracts the Dolby TrueHD soundtrack from the disc which then undergoes decoding and mixing to uncompressed PCM. This multichannel signal then goes thrugh a digital to analog conversion before being transmitted through the 5.1 analog connections. You can use any receiver with 5.1 analog inputs to enjoy Dolby True HD.

So to answer your question, you can use HDMI if your receiver knows how to handle the full multichannel PCM signal. Otherwise you can use 5.1 analog connections if your HD DVD player is the A1, XA1 or the XA2.

Anyone please correct me or add anything relevant.

Panasonic PT-AE3000 1080p Projector//Carada 110" Criterion High Contrast Grey 16:9 Screen//Oppo BDP-83SE//Toshiba HD-XA2
Classe SSP800 Processor//Classe CA-5200 5 Channel Amplifier//Classe CA-2200 2 Channel Amplifier
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dblbogey7
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27. July 2007 @ 18:33 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
I think you've got it covered error5. Did we miss anything Ced or eatsushi?

Quote:
Actually the XA2 and the PS3 have HDMI 1.3 so they can send the Dolby True HD and DTS HD MA bitstream to a receiver that can decode these signals.
I think we clarified this a few weeks ago with an update.

The XA2 could get bitstream transmission capability with a future FW update. It has the SIL Vastline 9134 HDMI 1.3 chip which supports advanced audio codec transmission. The only problem will be discs authored in advanced mode which will require a mechanism to bypass default player decoding.

The PS3 has an HDMI 1.3 transmitter chip that doesn't support advanced audio codec transmission. It's the SIL Vastline 9132 Gaming Transmitter.
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