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Swap magic and TOC question
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Dab117
Junior Member
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13. June 2007 @ 16:59 |
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I've ordered Swap Magic 3.6 NTSC and it'll be here tomorrow so I'm doing as much homework as possible to make sure I understand everything. Swap magic 3.6 can't boot dual-layered backups because of the TOC size, correct? Then can I insert a dual-layered original and refresh the TOC? And can I use a Dual-Layered original with swap magic for single layered games with a larger TOC than swap magic? I've read conflicting posts in multiple forums on this topic.Also, are there any games that are just incompatible with swap magic? And lastly, if a game is only slightly larger than Swap Magic, will it just not load at all? Or is it a game by game basis? Oh, and is there a cheap game that has a really high TOC (single layered) that I can use for games with larger TOC than Swapmagic 3.6? (sorry for all the questions, this is all stuff I couldn't get definitive answers on my own, any help is appreciated, Thanks)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 13. June 2007 @ 16:59
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Z3120
Senior Member
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13. June 2007 @ 18:46 |
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1. Swap magic 3.6 can't boot dual-layered backups because of the TOC size, correct?
Yes, because Swap Magic 3.6, the dvd version, is burnt onto a DVD5 which has a max capacity of about 4.34 gigabytes or something.
2. Then can I insert a dual-layered original and refresh the TOC?
Nope, because even if you were to try and do a TOC refresh with the dual-layered disk, I believe the PS2 in general will read 1 layer of the dual-layer disk at most hence the TOC size will still be too small.
3. And can I use a Dual-Layered original with swap magic for single layered games with a larger TOC than swap magic?
Like I said in the previous question; hence, why you must shrink some files, dummying some data and so forth to be able to play DVD9 games on a DVD5 so Swap Magic can boot them. I think some mod-chips already have a built-in feature where they can read both layers.
4. Also, are there any games that are just incompatible with swap magic?
Yes, it's a 1-5% minuscule game list where Swap Magic won't be able to boot the game. The game list of bad failures rise if you decide to make a multi-game compilation. Here if you're interested.
5. And lastly, if a game is only slightly larger than Swap Magic, will it just not load at all?
It varies and depends what you mean by slightly larger. The reason why games that are nominal in difference of size compared to the Swap Magic's TOC can or cannot boot could be depending on what DVD media brand you use, what PS2 version you have, how old your PS2's laser is and so forth.
6. Or is it a game by game basis?
It can be a game by game, media brand by media brand basis too.
7. Oh, and is there a cheap game that has a really high TOC (single layered) that I can use for games with larger TOC than Swapmagic 3.6?
The biggest size DVD5 game will either be Gran Turismo 3 or Grand Theft Auto San Andreas I believe, but they're still both DVD5 games that are less than the TOC of the Swap Magic DVD version.
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Senior Member
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13. June 2007 @ 19:46 |
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LOL actually my copy of sonic heroes PAL is 4.37 GB last time i checked.
And is it possible to put a few normal PS2 games into a dual layered dvd and boot it up with a modchip = more games?
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Dab117
Junior Member
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13. June 2007 @ 21:13 |
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wow Z3120, thanks alot for the very detailed response. I really appreciate the info. I've seen a post in this forum about TOC sizes of various games and a few were higher (by 0.1 or 0.2 GBs) than Swap Magic 3.6 (what caught my eye was Xenosaga II) But the list looked a bit old. The DVD+r's that I have are Sony brand Yuden000 T02 (Nero cd-dvd speed says at least) and I can't seem to get solid quality information on this media (other than comparisons with T01)I've ran quality scans with Nero and they're relatively horrible. Jitter rate stayed around 12%, The quality rating on different settings read 84-95 on one disc, the PI error count was rediculously high (with 2 scans on 2 different discs) All my Data discs have come back with no errors (not a single coaster). My biggest concern with actually burning the backups is that my crappy lite-on dvd writer has issues with pretty old drives. Disks may appear as not being in at all,false crc errors, etc.(with latest firmware on all drives) and I keep reading how you should burn at half the maximum of the disks, or always 4x. The discs are 8x and my writer only supports 6x minimum so it's not an option. If absolutely necessary, I can use an old external Nec-1100 4x DVD burner but I don't know of my lite-on would have a high error rate on actual burns.
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Z3120
Senior Member
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14. June 2007 @ 01:01 |
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Originally posted by OmriSama:
LOL actually my copy of sonic heroes PAL is 4.37 GB last time i checked.
And is it possible to put a few normal PS2 games into a dual layered dvd and boot it up with a modchip = more games?
From my understanding, Sonic Heroes has an immense dummy file when shrunk. The total TOC size of Sonic Heroes I believe will come up to about 700 megabytes to 1 gigabytes hence why it's so easy to make a multi-game compilation of Sonic Heroes. Check here on how to shrink that massive dummy file. And the 4.37 gigabyte I believe you are mentioning is a false LBA, which is why when you shrink a game like the Nippon Ichi strategy games like Disgaea or La Pucelle Tactics, instead of getting about 1.3 gigabytes when you ripped them, you discover they are around 750 megabytes and below.
Edit: and I dunno if it's possible to make a multi-game compilation on a dual-layered disc although it could be possible. I would try it but dual-layered disc are expensive, and I have no mod-chip to boot it.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 14. June 2007 @ 01:52
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Z3120
Senior Member
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14. June 2007 @ 01:24 |
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and Dab117, about your struggles with burning, bad quality scans with your Sony DVDs coded out as Taiyo Yuden and such, I suggest you switch to either Taiyo Yuden or Verbatim. The difference between a makeshift Taiyo Yuden under another brand name and a real Taiyo Yuden is the same as trying to compare CMC MAGs from both Memorex and TDK. If you want a truly authentic and genuine Taiyo Yuden, by all means, purchase it online from a reputable site such as supermediastore.com. From my knowledge, research and experience, I believe Taiyo Yuden manufactures DVDs under the Sony and Verbatim name although I ain't too certainly sure.
As for your issues with burning the disc, I never would again use a Sony DVD in general, whether they're 4x, 8x or 16x, ever since using Taiyo Yuden although I do use Sony as data discs. After trying some authentic Taiyo Yuden media, and because Sony hasn't been really good for me when I want to burn a game that requires the use of nearly 90~99% of the disc, I found when burning Sony DVD+Rs (because the only system I'm using to play backed-up games and imports is my v15 slim PS2 that can only read DVD+Rs) games such as Valkyrie Profile Silmeria, Tales of the Abyss, Final Fantasy 12 and so forth that are around 4.2 gigabytes in size, either failed to boot or were operating 150%~300% worse than the original; whereas, when I use my Taiyo Yuden 8x DVD+Rs and compared the original with my backup (which is easy to do when you're playing games with extra value and length like Tales of Destiny [remake]) the results were nearly identical and similar.
Edit: also, how different were the scan results when you scanned the Sony Taiyo Yuden? If the scans weren't consistent when you did multiple scans with the same DVD drive reading the same disc, it could be two things that are wrong. Either your DVD drive is getting old or the quality of the disc you've bought is horrible. It isn't impossible not to get fakes. I use this as a reference when looking at media IDs from different companies. I found I have a better chance getting Riteks from TDKs than Riteks from Memorex because of learning about media IDs, the difference between media brands and so forth unlike some people I personally know who don't know any better.
Most likely the ones you bought are real, but I was only saying just in case they might not be. I suggest you burn at half the rated speed of the disc. It really depends on your burner, the media and what you'll be using it for. Since I'm assuming you'll be using these Sony TYs for gaming, you have to check first before saying such and such about it. When you think about the different variations of burn speeds with different burners, different computer hardware and different media brands and so forth, you can have an enormous amount of so many factors to consider, it will be nearly impossible to determine what works best for you until you at least try it.
Oh, and just burn your game on those Sony TYs at 6x or 8x. It doesn't really matter depending on what media it is and what you're looking for. If it really concerns you, try an experiment. Burn both games at different speeds, one on 6x and the other on 8x, and scan both discs on the same speed like 4x and 8x a few times with both drives using Nero CD/DVD Speed Check (or whatever the exact name is). If you want to get more technical, you can burn the same game on 6x and 8x on both burners you have and scan the disc X amount of times with each burner. The main thing you want to look for is consistency from what I've done. If there's consistency and there isn't too much of a jump, I wouldn't be so worried about it. You can't really get perfection when you're duplicating something.
Actually, I take that back about "you can't really get perfection when you're duplicating something." You could always try the old test where you extract the game files from a badly scratched test, whether it's the original or backup, and see how well your new copy works using the files you got from the ruin/damaged image. Then, in some cases, the game will work absolutely better than the previous/original.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 14. June 2007 @ 02:03
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Dab117
Junior Member
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14. June 2007 @ 09:46 |
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thanks alot Z3120 for all the information. I'll test burn a few games and scan them a few times. The site you linked for blank media quality says that if they were genuine Yuden000 T02 it would certainly be outstanding media (1st class). I've never once had a failed burn with them (been using them for probably my last 150 Burns) But I don't know how to tell if they're true Taiyo Yuden or just imitations. I'll google around for a bit and see if I have any luck. It certainly would be nice to find out that my media is high quality. I get what I can at walmart(live in the middle of nowhere)usually I was stuck with verbatim or imation and despite always hearing how good they are, they were quite honestly horrible for me (on 3 different dvd burners with updated firmware). As much as 1 in 5 failed verification (Data DVD's). But for the past few weeks, Sony DVD+R's were actually cheaper. (not a single regret yet)Thanks again Z3120
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Z3120
Senior Member
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14. June 2007 @ 11:50 |
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Originally posted by Dab117:
usually I was stuck with verbatim or imation and despite always hearing how good they are, they were quite honestly horrible for me (on 3 different dvd burners with updated firmware).
Which is why when you buy DVDs, looking at media IDs can help immensely in determining what you're actually getting. I heard of people using techniques like when they're checking Sony or Verbatim 50 or 100 packs, they look for certain traits like container appearance, white styrofoams and so forth, and it usually worked for them, and they got what they wanted. Unfortunately, it worked for them but not for me so much. I need a little more luck when I'm searching for Riteks under the TDK and Memorex brand name. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. But really, go for what works for you. Just because I've had a bad experience with Sony doesn't mean you will, but I'm certain I will be getting such results because I spent the time and effort into testing I will achieve these results no matter what I try to do. So instead of wasting even more disc in attempting to get a particular brand to work, I simply switched (or upgraded) brands and haven't had an ounce of trouble since besides the other stuff that could result in a fail boot like certain games, shrinking files or replacing dummy data.
Edit: On the other hand, just to let you know, the site I gave you is a bit outdated like people have asked, suggested and said like how Ritek should move up to first instead of being 2nd and maybe lowering some brands further down, but besides that, the list is pretty consistent even to this day.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 14. June 2007 @ 11:54
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Dab117
Junior Member
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14. June 2007 @ 15:48 |
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ok, I'm having a HUGE problem. I put the swap magic CD and dvd in my PS2 and my system locks up. I actually managed to get the DVD to get to the swap screen but after swapping, it locks up. I switched over to my other PS2 and it just doesn't read CD's at all (no big deal) But it reads DVD games just fine (doesn't like DVD movies) but I got it to load the DVD version of swap magic with absolutely no problem what so ever. I put one game in (Kingdom Hearts II) and it boots up perfectly. I get stoked and burn off a few other backups and all I get is "Not a valid PS2 disc" from all of them. I put Kingdom Hearts II back in and won't boot either. I put in several original PS2 games and they played just fine. For some basic stats
Playstation V6
Sony (Yuden000 T02) 8x DVD+r's burned at 6X
Lite-on SHW 160-P6S DVD burner
Discs burned with Alcohol 120% (with automatic book typing to DVD-rom)
I would REALLY appreciate any help. Thanks
edit: Sorry, It's V7, not V6.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 14. June 2007 @ 16:14
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Senior Member
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14. June 2007 @ 15:59 |
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Dude.
You're using DVD+R on a V6 PS2? Old ps2s NEED DVD-R. And i heard sony only makes good -R/-RW DVDS. So get VERBATIM OR SONY DVD-R.
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Senior Member
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14. June 2007 @ 16:04 |
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And Z3120, i checked my Sonic Heroes copy with DVD Decrypter.
It's 4,698,767,360 bytes.
And i don't want to shrink it and everything, you were just talking about the biggest size single layer TOC disc, so i said my sonic heroes is 4.7 GB, or so i thought.
And can you help me understand what the hell is a dummy file? how does it help? what does it do? Thanks.
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Dab117
Junior Member
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14. June 2007 @ 16:09 |
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Correction, V7. The V6 one crashed when reading Swap magic. It booted Kingdom Hearts II but it refuses to do it again.
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Senior Member
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14. June 2007 @ 16:21 |
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Dosen't matter. ANY OLD PS2 NEEDS DVD-R.
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Dab117
Junior Member
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14. June 2007 @ 16:34 |
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several members in this forum and others have reported the V7 working fine with +R, I've read several threads that had anything to do with DVD+r's and the V7 (google of course)
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Senior Member
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14. June 2007 @ 20:01 |
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Dosen't matter. If DVD+R dosen't work well for you, try Sony DVD-R and see how it works.
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Dab117
Junior Member
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14. June 2007 @ 23:26 |
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like most people with this problem, I found the solution myself. It seems that when Swap magic loads, it's a flip of a coin type of chance that it will load ANY games. I simply reset the system and try again and they load no problem. Thanks for the replies.
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Z3120
Senior Member
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15. June 2007 @ 02:57 |
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Originally posted by Dab117:
like most people with this problem, I found the solution myself. It seems that when Swap magic loads, it's a flip of a coin type of chance that it will load ANY games. I simply reset the system and try again and they load no problem. Thanks for the replies.
It could be your laser is getting slightly old; hence, the reason for multiple attempts to boot a game although I doubt your laser should be anywhere near its age since you probably can read your originals well and dandy. Your 50-50 chance on getting Swap Magic to work sounds similar to how I use to try and get my PSX games working on my old PS2 with a 5~10% probability of booting (yes, it's that low).
And to Omirsama (off topic, my bad): Sometimes a dummy file in certain games can't boot properly without it being removed like Dragon Quest 8's dummy file for me and a few others (this problem is listed under the commonly asked questions sticky here too as a common problem for some). I found out if you remove huge dummy files like those in Capcom Vs SNK 2, not only will it run as well as the original (perhaps faster in some cases), but it'll run more efficiently without the need to read through all the extra chunks of data produced from the dummy file (although you can leave it as it is like Shin Megami Nocturne for some). I recall Sonic Heroes having a huge dummy file when I was still learning how to shrink dummy files. It's actually a good thing to have dummy files in some games to avoid using CDs in general on a PS2. Overall, if the game works for you, just leave it as it is. If it doesn't, trying shrinking the dummy file to see if Swap Magic will boot it.
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Dab117
Junior Member
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15. June 2007 @ 21:49 |
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ok, I've scanned several discs in Nero CD DVD speed and the results are fairly consistent. PI Errors max at about 200 and PI failures max out at 3. Jitter stays between 11-12%. (I'm not familiar with how to post the actual results but these were the values that Nero emphasized. The actual total numbers are insanely high and I don't know average PI error and failure figures, let alone good or bad ones.)
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