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Issues with ProCoder 3 and DivX / XviD sources
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Atriya
Newbie
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26. May 2008 @ 05:09 |
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I'm using ProCoder 3 to encode some files encoded in DivX / XviD into MPEG2 so that I can author them to DVD. The content is mainly rare video footage / TV transmission / concert video of a certain music artist. It's not possible for me to get any better quality sources for these, in some cases no better source exists.
The stuff is mainly from 1965 - 1985, although one particular silent clip was recorded in 1928! In accordance with the times, the quality of the video is mainly poor, with lots of noise, etc. The files have bitrates around 1000 - 2000 kbps.
What I want is a relatively faithful conversion to MPEG2, retaining whatever little video clarity there is. I've heard that ProCoder is better than CCE SP for this particular type (bad source) of conversion.
Unfortunately, even when encoding at 8000Kbps in 'Mastering' mode, I have found a significant drop in quality, even with my untrained eye. The image appears blurred and less detailed and the colours are less vibrant and look faded. When encoding at lower bitrates this quality drop obviously persists, but doesn't seem to be getting any worse. What am I doing wrong? I tried TMPGEnc and Nero codecs as well. Results were even worse than ProCoder.
Thanks in advance.
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Senior Member
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26. May 2008 @ 15:11 |
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Is it possible to provide a screen grab or a short movie sequence
showing the problem?
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Atriya
Newbie
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26. May 2008 @ 23:20 |
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No problem, only I don't know how to do it! I don't have a website or anything, but I have snapshots on my HDD.
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Senior Member
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27. May 2008 @ 11:45 |
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Use http://imageshack.us/
No account necessary. Upload a single file, and it will give you
a direct access URL. Press the "add image" icon here, and insert the url.
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Atriya
Newbie
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27. May 2008 @ 15:14 |
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Thanks. So here's a snapshot from the original video:
And here's a snapshot from an MPEG2 encoded at 8000Kbps, all settings to highest quality possible, and mastering mode:
The quality loss is pretty obvious. Everything's become more hazy and less detailed. Also note the loss in colour depth, for example look at the red carpet or at the stage.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 27. May 2008 @ 15:25
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Senior Member
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27. May 2008 @ 17:35 |
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Atriya
Newbie
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27. May 2008 @ 22:10 |
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This screenshot was taken from one of the best sources I have. Most of the rest are much worse in quality, but I chose this since the quality drop is more pronounced here.
Here are the specifications for the full source and a clip of the result respectively, generated by a small media info utility:
Source:
General #0
Complete name : C:\Users\Atriya\Videos\1.avi
Format : AVI
Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
Format/Family : RIFF
File size : 1.22 GiB
PlayTime : 1h 43mn
Bit rate : 1691 Kbps
StreamSize/String : 8.75 MiB
Video #0
Codec : DivX 5
Codec/Family : MPEG-4V
Codec settings, Packet bitst : No
Codec settings, BVOP : Yes
Codec settings, QPel : No
Codec settings, GMC : 0
Codec settings, Matrix : Default
PlayTime : 1h 43mn
Bit rate : 1519 Kbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display Aspect ratio : 1.500
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Standard : NTSC
Resolution : 8 bits
Interlacement : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.147
StreamSize/String : 1.10 GiB
Writing library : DivX 5.0.2
Writing library/Date : UTC 2002-05-16
Audio #0
Codec : MPEG-1 Audio layer 3
Codec profile : Joint stereo
Bit rate mode : CBR
Bit rate : 160 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 44.1 KHz
Resolution : 16 bits
StreamSize/String : 118 MiB
Writing library : LAME3.92
Encoding settings : CBR
Coherency/PlayTime : 9287
Result:
General #0
Complete name : C:\Users\Atriya\Videos\1.m2v
Format : MPEG-2 Video
Format/Family : MPEG-2
File size : 25.0 MiB
PlayTime : 25s 1ms
Bit rate : 8391 Kbps
Video #0
Codec : MPEG-2 Video
Codec/Family : MPEG-V
Codec profile : Main@Main
Codec settings, Matrix : Standard
PlayTime : 25s 1ms
Bit rate mode : CBR
Bit rate : 8052 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 9800 Kbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display Aspect ratio : 4/3
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Standard : NTSC
Chroma : 4:2:0
Interlacement : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.946
I'd provide a small clip of the source if I could, but you'll have to tell me how to extract 10 seconds from an avi file!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 27. May 2008 @ 22:17
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Senior Member
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28. May 2008 @ 00:32 |
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Hello,
Download and install Virtualdub if you don't already have it.
Open the avi and select Audio/no audio
(don't need it). Hold down the shift key and drag the slider
to a representative part. (holding the shift key stops at keyframes -the clip must start on a keyframe, signified by [K] underneath
the slider). When you find the keyframe you want to start at, click
the left pointing black arrow (below the slider, 2nd from the right)
that sets the start of the selection. Now choose your ending frame
(can be any frame) and press the right
pointing black arrow. That's the selection set.
Now select video/direct stream copy and File/save as avi.
That's your selection. Now upload to a file hosting site, perhaps
http://www.savefile.com/
How was the source avi created? Is it deinterlaced full field
NTSC video?
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Atriya
Newbie
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28. May 2008 @ 01:05 |
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I'll give you the clip as soon as I can (within a few hours). Thanks for all the help. In the meantime, I encoded the same thing with QuEnc, using the highest possible settings, though that took 15 mins to encode 40 seconds, even on my Core 2 Duo. Here's the result:
Here are the specs of the output file:
General #0
Complete name : C:\Users\Atriya\Videos\clip.m2v
Format : MPEG-2 Video
Format/Family : MPEG-2
File size : 25.5 MiB
PlayTime : 39s 767ms
Bit rate : 5386 Kbps
Video #0
Codec : MPEG-2 Video
Codec/Family : MPEG-V
Codec profile : Main@Main
Codec settings, Matrix : Standard
PlayTime : 39s 767ms
Bit rate mode : CBR
Bit rate : 5166 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 9800 Kbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display Aspect ratio : 1.500
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Standard : NTSC
Chroma : 4:2:0
Interlacement : Bottom Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.946
I'd say it's much better than ProCoder 3, but keep in mind that it took about 20 times more time to encode. However, its quality is still noticeably inferior to the original.
Also, I have no idea how the source AVI was created.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 28. May 2008 @ 01:10
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Atriya
Newbie
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28. May 2008 @ 04:36 |
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This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 28. May 2008 @ 04:39
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Senior Member
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28. May 2008 @ 15:43 |
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Hello, I took a look at your source, it's interlaced,
but the avi file should be 4:3 ratio instead of the 3:2 it is now.
Open it in Virtualdub, right click on the image and select 4:3 frame.
Looks a little more natural to me.
I Frameserved it to Tmpgenc 2.5 but first applied a mild temporal
filter to help with the block noise. Encoded it in Tmpgenc using
interlaced, CQ & Tmpgenc custom quantize matrix. I used "motion estimate" - the fastest "motion search precision". It took about
10 seconds to encode on my AMD 64 4200 X2.
http://www.savefile.com/files/1578624
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Atriya
Newbie
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28. May 2008 @ 20:14 |
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Well, I checked out your output. I have to say, there's still a sizable quality drop. In general I think your results are similar to the ones I got using QuEnc (see the post above the one where I posted the file), but slightly worse I think. Is this slight quality drop unavoidable? Anyway, thanks for taking the time to test out the video.
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Senior Member
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28. May 2008 @ 22:34 |
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Well I'm not surprised, to tell the truth. You will
have to accept some loss. If only because there's always a loss
when a conversion is made. Of course, the loss can be minimized,
some basic knowledge, trial and error & some luck!
I did look at your stills from procoder and
QuEnc - I must say, I'm surprised Procoder looks so fuzzy.
Very difficult for me to compare the output from the encoder to the
stills you gave, but I could see it looked close to the QuEnc.
Even using a slightly higher bitrate, or a bigger motion search doesn't make much differnce (or at least what I could see) to
the result because of the nature of the material.
You might be able to get a slight improvement by removing the B frames
from the GOP. I tried it, and I think it results in a slightly
"steadier" picture. See this page for some info on the "B" frames.
http://dvd-hq.info/dvd_compression.php#Video
Give the HC encoder a try: http://www.bitburners.com/hc-encoder/
Perhaps play around with some of it's advanced features, try
"adaptive quant" on settings 1, and possibly "luminance gain" on
settings 2.
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Atriya
Newbie
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29. May 2008 @ 01:58 |
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I did try HCEnc. Results were just slightly worse than QuEnc, about the same as your TMPGEnc. I tried the mighty CCE SP (trial) as well. Amazingly, results were as bad as ProCoder, if not a tiny bit worse. It seems these 'high-end' encoders are not really geared to converting from DivX/XviD/low quality sources. QuEnc is the best so far. However, all these are with highest, but untweaked settings (apart from your TMPGEnc encode). Frankly, I don't understand the subject well enough to effectively tweak. Looks like I've got some learning to do!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 29. May 2008 @ 02:00
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Atriya
Newbie
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30. May 2008 @ 22:02 |
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Just one more question - you're right about the correct aspect ratio being 4:3. However, if I just change the A.R. in VirtualDub like you instructed, isn't that a 'lossy' process? After all the frame size is remaining the same, so video pixels are being compressed to provide the new A.R.
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Senior Member
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31. May 2008 @ 00:38 |
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Hello Atriya,
just when I thought this thread was abandoned... !
When you change the A/R by clicking on the frame and choose a size,
it's only for display purposes (I think) - it doesn't affect processing in any other way.
I don't think you should change it here. Just encode it to mpeg
as-is and ensure that no letterboxing crept in. If it
did, the AR will be wrong. It should be the whole screen, and
you'll get the proper 4:3.
The confusion arises because we normally expect the avi file to be
1:1 pixels and for it to be correct when it is viewed uncompensated
on the screen, in virtualdub for example. Yours is not, but
it doesn't really matter as long as the mpeg encoder handles it
properly.
I'm pretty sure CCE does, because CCE just uses it as it sees it,
Tmpgenc 2.5 recognizes it as ntsc dvd AR and therefore leaves it
as it is. I'm not sure what the other encoders do, or what control
you have. You'll have to try it and see.
If you look at your post - May 2008 @ 14:14
the mpeg encode is wrong because it's letterboxed. You probably
incurred a quality loss right there due to the resize.
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AfterDawn Addict
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2. June 2008 @ 04:44 |
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Originally posted by Atriya:
I did try HCEnc. Results were just slightly worse than QuEnc, about the same as your TMPGEnc. I tried the mighty CCE SP (trial) as well. Amazingly, results were as bad as ProCoder, if not a tiny bit worse. It seems these 'high-end' encoders are not really geared to converting from DivX/XviD/low quality sources. QuEnc is the best so far. However, all these are with highest, but untweaked settings (apart from your TMPGEnc encode). Frankly, I don't understand the subject well enough to effectively tweak. Looks like I've got some learning to do!
That is correct.
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Atriya
Newbie
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3. June 2008 @ 05:34 |
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MysticE, it would be nice if you could actually help out a bit, rather than just trying to be sarcastic. So far, nobody other than davexnet has offered any help. The link to the sample is in this thread - if you know a way to tweak a better result out of ProCoder 3 or CCE SP for this sample, I'd like to know it!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 3. June 2008 @ 10:43
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AfterDawn Addict
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5. June 2008 @ 01:39 |
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Originally posted by Atriya:
MysticE, it would be nice if you could actually help out a bit, rather than just trying to be sarcastic. So far, nobody other than davexnet has offered any help. The link to the sample is in this thread - if you know a way to tweak a better result out of ProCoder 3 or CCE SP for this sample, I'd like to know it!
LOL. Agreeing with your statement is sarcastic?
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cylix
Newbie
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18. June 2008 @ 00:37 |
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Unfortunately, I am unfamiliar with which codec procoder3 is using for mpeg2 compression.
Have you tried an alternate mpeg2 codec outside of the default. Elecard has a trial for their codec. I've used it in some production systems and it does OK. Lead has a rather nice variant as well. Lead has a trial period as well.
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