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Why exactly do movies freeze up?
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ghall426
Newbie
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29. September 2008 @ 00:21 |
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OK, I've read the FAQ and many 'expert' advice. I'll admit I don't follow the recommendations, for example:
1. I use Memorex DVD+R, which aren't the recommended discs to use.
2. I burn at full 16x speed, not at 4x like recommended.
3. I multi-task while the burning takes place.
Now what I want to know is, why are these things bad? I use Roxio to burn the DVDs and the software verifies that they were burned correctly. The buffer nevers drops to 0, so I don't understand what happens in the burning process that makes them not work on DVD players?
The funny thing is they don't freeze up right away. It might take a few weeks and a few viewings before it starts taking place. It happens on several DVD players, some cheap, some expensive. Which ones have the problems reading the discs - cheap or expensive?
And another funny thing is the "bad" discs still read correctly in several different DVD computer drives. They obviously can still read the 0's and 1's and I can make another copy that works for a while again.
One more question. If there are 'errors' on the DVDs, why don't the players just show distorion, keep on tracking, and start playing again when the data is more readable again?
Thanks for any info provided.
Greg
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Sebright
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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29. September 2008 @ 00:34 |
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I'm no expert, but I've burned quite a few DVDs of all types and I haven't noticed this problem with disks going 'bad'.
But if I'm burning a DVD (and I use Imgburn) I never burn above 4x and I close down all other applications, and just let the system deal with burning the DVD.
My (non-teccie) belief is that at slower speeds and with no distractions, you get a deper burn on the DVD. Remember, all the burning really does is to darken the dye on the DVD to record the data, so the smoother and deeper the burn the better.
Why not follow the advice and see if it solves your problem? Unless you're burning lots of disks, surely it's only a matter of a few extra minutes per disk, and well worth the extra trouble.
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ghall426
Newbie
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29. September 2008 @ 03:37 |
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Thanks for the info. I will follow the advice when people can explain to me why I need to do those things. It just doesn't make sense that they make 16x discs and 16x burners but you shouldn't burn at that speed.
Greg
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1bonehead
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29. September 2008 @ 04:20 |
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Answers
1) Memorex are poor discs to use because of inconsistent quality from batch to bactch and sometimes from disc to disc. We prefer good discs that burn with a high consistency disc to disc with low jitter and burn errors. This is why we recommend Taiyo Yuden discs
2)Although rated at high speed, the burning laser must output more power to convert the cyanine or pthalocyanine dye base to activate the photochemical process to make the thin gel layer diffusive or reflective (the 1s and 0s)and in a permanent solid state. If not enugh laser energy is imparted, then only a semi transition to the permanent solid state takes place. Then the reading laser (in the dvd player) hits the semisolid transition layer and further changes the semi solid to a new more solid complex (corrupted data), hence the disc is now not readable.This is akin to running your car flat out. The longer you pour it on, the easier it is for the engine to misfire at high speed. At a more leisurely speed (1/2 of rated output), the car can run all day and night with out missfires. Think of the misfires as bad data burned to your disc. This is why we recommend to burn at no more than 1/2 of rated speed, the burning laser can do a etter job at burning the data correctly.
3) Do not multitask. When the cpu of a pc is asked to to many thing at once, errors creep in. this is like giving you the task of 10 things to do at once. You're apt to make moree mistakes than doin only 1 thing at a time,the cpu is no different than you
The BPI Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, EMI.
The RIAA Soundexchange Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, EMI.
The IFPI Are: The same anti consumer lot as listed above!
The MPAA Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, DISNEY, PARAMOUNT, FOX.
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ghall426
Newbie
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29. September 2008 @ 10:24 |
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Awesome answers bonehead. Exactly what I was looking for.
Greg
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1bonehead
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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29. September 2008 @ 14:07 |
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Originally posted by ghall426:
Awesome answers bonehead. Exactly what I was looking for.
Greg
Greg, you are welcome and hope it helped
-bones-
The BPI Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, EMI.
The RIAA Soundexchange Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, EMI.
The IFPI Are: The same anti consumer lot as listed above!
The MPAA Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, DISNEY, PARAMOUNT, FOX.
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ghall426
Newbie
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29. September 2008 @ 22:08 |
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I guess I do have one more question. If what you say about the laser buring the disc is true, why doesn't my computer's DVD drive have a problem with it, but both my cheap and expensive DVD player does?
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1bonehead
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29. September 2008 @ 22:20 |
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Like beer, "not all are made equal"
In manufacturing, everthing has a budget. Some areas are scrimped on. The laser and optical reading system in your pc drive is most likely a better system than that in your stand alone dvd player.
As a side note, even in an expensive dvd player, the the firmware (the software built into the dvd player) may not have the same capabilities as that of your pc. The pc's ability to play a move is based solely on software. Also, if the pc drive burnt the disc origionally, it stands a better chance to read the disc as it is "familiar" with the burned disc
-bones-
The BPI Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, EMI.
The RIAA Soundexchange Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, EMI.
The IFPI Are: The same anti consumer lot as listed above!
The MPAA Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, DISNEY, PARAMOUNT, FOX.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 29. September 2008 @ 22:39
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Senior Member
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29. September 2008 @ 23:31 |
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^bows before you^ Very well thought out and compiled answers Bones. Kudos!
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Senior Member
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29. September 2008 @ 23:34 |
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I burn at 4x speed I use Verbatim DVDR- I do not multi-task while burning and I have perfect backups not trying to be a smart ass but it works this way
RBROCK
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Senior Member
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29. September 2008 @ 23:39 |
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Originally posted by rbrock:
I burn at 4x speed I use Verbatim DVDR- I do not multi-task while burning and I have perfect backups not trying to be a smart ass but it works this way
Thats pretty well the same as me. Although I might bump the speed to 8x using Taiyo Yudens, I never go beyond that. Plus I don't multitask either. If the process works and has been proven, why buck it?
PS- All that said, there is nothing wrong with experimenting with drives, speed, and media as long as you are willing to take the bad with the good.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 29. September 2008 @ 23:40
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1bonehead
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29. September 2008 @ 23:40 |
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Originally posted by ferguj1:
^bows before you^ Very well thought out and compiled answers Bones. Kudos!
@ferguj1,many thanks, no bowing necessary :)
I've learned these answers (and more)from reading the posts from you, 7thsinger,JoeRyan, rtm,iluvendo,ataar, dialysis, esentially all the regulars here at aD.
The BPI Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, EMI.
The RIAA Soundexchange Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, EMI.
The IFPI Are: The same anti consumer lot as listed above!
The MPAA Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, DISNEY, PARAMOUNT, FOX.
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Senior Member
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29. September 2008 @ 23:42 |
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Quote:
7thsinger,JoeRyan, rtm,iluvendo,ataar, dialysis
Leave me out, as you are citing royalty.
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1bonehead
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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29. September 2008 @ 23:53 |
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Originally posted by ferguj1:
Quote:
7thsinger,JoeRyan, rtm,iluvendo,ataar, dialysis
Leave me out, as you are citing royalty.
I consider you a member of that group too !
The BPI Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, EMI.
The RIAA Soundexchange Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, EMI.
The IFPI Are: The same anti consumer lot as listed above!
The MPAA Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, DISNEY, PARAMOUNT, FOX.
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sKrEwZ
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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30. September 2008 @ 10:37 |
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Originally posted by 1bonehead:
Originally posted by ferguj1:
^bows before you^ Very well thought out and compiled answers Bones. Kudos!
@ferguj1,many thanks, no bowing necessary :)
I've learned these answers (and more)from reading the posts from you, 7thsinger,JoeRyan, rtm,iluvendo,ataar, dialysis, esentially all the regulars here at aD.
Ah, the elite. I too have learned much from the same list of AD Regulars as well as a few others.
Quote:
I burn at 4x speed I use Verbatim DVDR- I do not multi-task while burning and I have perfect backups not trying to be a smart ass but it works this way
Can't go wrong there.
Some assembly required.
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varnull
Suspended permanently
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30. September 2008 @ 12:41 |
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You can with verbs.. watch out for the duff MIA versions.. the data can go MIA very easily. hahaha.
Well.. I'm going to take this old lappy to The Crown and see if I can hack myself some free internet... my hour is up.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 30. September 2008 @ 12:43
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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30. September 2008 @ 14:05 |
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Bonehead1, ghall426--
Bonehead1's answers were clear and concise, but I thought it might be helpful to clear up a few points. I've marked them in the answers:
2)Although rated at high speed, the burning laser must output more power to convert the cyanine or pthalocyanine color=red](Phthalocyanine is only good for the infra-red wavelength used for CD-Rs. DVDs require azo-cyanine, cyanine, or Oxonol dyes.[/color][/color]dye base to activate the photochemical process to make the thin gel (The dye is applied in a liquid state and dries very quickly to a thin, dry layer. It is never a gel.) layer diffusive or reflective (the 1s and 0s)and in a permanent solid state. If not enugh laser energy is imparted, then only a semi transition to the permanent solid state takes place. (This sounds more like the rewritable process. Dyes are darkened where the recording laser hits them, and the best dark marks have very sharp transitions from light to dark. If the transition is not sharp or accurate, timing of the mark/no mark is not clear--jitter.)Then the reading laser (in the dvd player) hits the semisolid transition layer and further changes the semi solid to a new more solid complex (corrupted data), hence the disc is now not readable.(The reading laser has so little power, less than a milliwatt, that it has no effect on the dye at all because the dye reacts to the heat created by a powerful application of light at a particular wavelength. An 8X DL drive might have to have 500 milliwatts of power for recording.)This is akin to running your car flat out. The longer you pour it on, the easier it is for the engine to misfire at high speed. At a more leisurely speed (1/2 of rated output), the car can run all day and night with out missfires. Think of the misfires as bad data burned to your disc. This is why we recommend to burn at no more than 1/2 of rated speed, the burning laser can do a etter job at burning the data correctly. The effect of speed is both mechanical and thermal. Faster speeds require more power, and less power keeps the laser diode in a better range for extending its life because lower power backs off from the upper limit. The laser also lasts longer when not pushed to the maximum. The mechanical aspect is also easy to understand. Slower speeds make it easier for the disc to rotate properly, for the laser to adjust its focus more easily (necessary for the outer edges of a disc that may "flutter" at high speed), and reduces the wear on the drive's bearings. Recording an accurate dark mark at 16X on the outer edge of a disc is equivalent to leaning out a car door and picking a hair off the highway while travelling at a speed of 125 mph/200 kph.
3) Do not multitask. When the cpu of a pc is asked to to many thing at once, errors creep in. this is like giving you the task of 10 things to do at once. You're apt to make moree mistakes than doin only 1 thing at a time,the cpu is no different than you (Good advice; good explanation.)
Discs have poor playback performance when the recorded marks are not strong enough, not sharp enough, not timed properly, out of track alignment, or out of focus. There dozens of other reasons, from software mistakes to physical flaws; but the reasons I've just mentioned are the result of poor drive/medium interaction. A DVD player will try to read discs with these problems and will correct what it can using its error correction. Sometimes error correction is wrong when it is forced to guess at should come next, and you will see rectangular specks, often green, in the picture. Sometimes the errors are so great that the drive loses track of the track or the timing and gives up. Often the dark marks written on the disc are vague but sharp enough for a drive to read them; but since optical media begin to deteriorate the moment after recording, the vagueness can shift into illegibility in a short time if the contrast between light and dark is on the threshold.
Computer drives are more flexible than the drives commonly used in DVD players. Their lens mechanisms have a greater range of focus and can move more rapidly. That's why a poorly recorded DVD can often be viewed in a computer even though DVD players no longer read it. It's all about the number and type of errors that can be handled. Poor recording quality is far more often due to a mismatch of drive and disc than to any real quality of the medium itself. AfterDawn posters generally prefer to use brands that: 1) vary little because they come from a single factory or from limited sources; and 2) are generally supported in the first iteration of a drive's software. Those brands that source from multiple factories run some small risk of production inconsistencies, but the bigger problem is inconsistent support in drives, particularly when a drive is new. Less than ideal write strategy can create poor dark marks on a dye, and that will make a poor recording no matter how good or bad the disc is.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 30. September 2008 @ 14:07
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AfterDawn Addict
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30. September 2008 @ 14:44 |
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I might as well muddy the waters a bit.
Quote:
Computer drives are more flexible than the drives commonly used in DVD players. Their lens mechanisms have a greater range of focus and can move more rapidly. That's why a poorly recorded DVD can often be viewed in a computer even though DVD players no longer read it.
But sometimes a disc that still plays in a standalone player can not be read/ripped in a computer burner anymore.
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1bonehead
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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30. September 2008 @ 15:06 |
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Thank You JoeRyan, the true recording media guru at aD.
The BPI Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, EMI.
The RIAA Soundexchange Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, EMI.
The IFPI Are: The same anti consumer lot as listed above!
The MPAA Are: SONY, UNIVERSAL, WARNER GROUP, DISNEY, PARAMOUNT, FOX.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 30. September 2008 @ 15:17
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