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The Official OC (OverClocking) Thread!
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NO Fanboy comments needed
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AfterDawn Addict
6 product reviews
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23. September 2007 @ 18:11 |
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thanks gents,
I'll look into you're suggestions and let ya know. it'll be a few days before I can look into it. I've got him turning off the power on the back of the p/s right after it initially shuts down in the meantime. thanks again.
Rig #1 Asus Rampage Formula Mobo, Intel Core2Quad Q9450 CPU @ 3.55ghz, 2gb Corsair DDR2 1066 Dominator Ram @ 5-5-5-15, TR Ultra 120 Extreme w/ Scythe 9 blade 110 cfm 120mm Fan HSF, HIS Radeon 512mb HD3850 IceQ TurboX GPU, Corsair 620HX P/S, CM Stacker 830 Evo Case, Rig #2 Asus P5W DH Deluxe Mobo, Intel C2D E6600 CPU @ 3.6ghz, 2gb Corsair XMS2 DDR2 800 Ram @ 4-4-4-12-2t, Zalman CNPS9500LED HSF, Sapphire Radeon X850XT PE GPU, Corsair 620HX P/S, Cooler Master Mystique Case, Viewsonic 20.1" Widescreen Digital LCD Monitor, Klipsch Promedia Ultra 5.1 THX Desktop Speakers, http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=348351 http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=236435 |
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AfterDawn Addict
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23. September 2007 @ 18:39 |
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NuckNFuts,
Quote:
I am speaking in experience with only the "Flagship" mobos from ASUS, not mid to low end, at least not for intense OC'n.
Back when I was still working and making a very good living and could afford the best, I took on the middle end motherboards because there's a certain sense of accomplishment to "Making a Silk Purse out of a Sow's ear"! LOL I did pretty good with an Asus P4P800-SE (my first OC), an Intel P4 3.0/800. I got it up to 3.86GHz. This MB had an 865-PE chipset. My next one was an Asus P5P800-SE which had a D-940 clocked as high as 3.94GHz. This also had the 865-PE chipset which had been reworked for the Pentium Ds Because of power regulation problems, it ultimately ran at 3.71GHz. Now I have my GA-965P-DS3 v1.3 which runs an E4300 solidly at 3.2GHz. while it will and has run faster, I won't go past 1.40v vcore and this speed needed 1.475V to run properly, so 3.2GHz is where it stays. All had either a Zalman 9500 or an Arctic Freezer as the CPU cooler. I consider all of them successful overclocks.
Could I have done better with a higher dollar MB? Perhaps! I'm not a gamer so for me the fun was getting there, just for the accomplishment. Along the way I learned what happens when you use poor quality power supplies and cheap memory.
I'm very pleased with the performance of the GigaByte MB and what it can do using good quality components. When I bought it it was considered a mid to high end MB, a couple of notches from the top DQ6. today I would still consider it a high quality mid end MB even though it has gotten less expensive than when I bought it. I got lucky and caught a sale (Thanks DocTY) and spent $99 for it when everywhere else was selling it for $129-$139. The only memory I've bought for myself has been Corsair XMS cas3 and the G.Skill cas4 I have in this one. No more cheap, no name memory for me! I bought a Thermaltake 500 watt PS, again on sale with a rebate deal as I've learned that those cheap $25 power supplies I used to buy, cost more in the long run than paying the price for a good PS. I buy Seagate Sata 3.0 drives, Asus DVD-Rom and NEC (Sony/Optiarc) DVD burner optical drives, all in a nice Cooler Master Cavalier case. I'm very pleased with the results. I plan on upgrading the CPU to an Intel 6750 in the not too distant future and it should really rock then. 3.6GHz will be my target. With this MB it should be easy! Given the caliber of the components I chose, I think I've done a good job with it. I'm sure that if I bought the best and more expensive components, it would be slightly better, but like I said, there would be no sense of acomplishment doing that, at least not for me! No real challenge!
I still marvel at how much less it costs today to build a high performance good quality computer than it did back in the late 80s, early 90s just to build a plain Jane computer. It totally blows me away, the performance level computers have today. It used to take me over 3 hours to process a DVD rip with DVDRB/CCE 2 pass on the old P4. On this computer the same job takes just under 45 minutes! Not too bad for the $750 it cost me to build! To each his own!
Mort81,
I would pull the power and reset switch plugs and see if it still does the same thing. If it does, then it's the PS for sure!
Best Regards,
Russ
GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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23. September 2007 @ 18:51 |
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Likewise with me, I may not have started early in the PC world, but early enough to know what pains they were, I remember back to when burning a CD took an hour and wasn't a reliable process.
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AfterDawn Addict
2 product reviews
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23. September 2007 @ 19:23 |
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Sam you picked the Asus, but don't you regret it now?
EDIT: I'm saying this because I have seen you complain about how it doesn't perform all that well.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 23. September 2007 @ 19:24
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AfterDawn Addict
6 product reviews
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23. September 2007 @ 19:43 |
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The asus mobo Sam has is not one of their top end mobos. it uses the nvidia 650i chipset and is notorious for for having problems. any of the upper end asus mobos with the intel 965, 975, or most likely the P35 chipset are a much better option only they don't have the SLI feature. if you want SLI go with the 680i chipset.
asus has always been good to me and if I was going to build a completely new rig I would still go with a top end asus mobo (no 650i chipset) or if I wanted SLI I would go with an asus or EVGA 680i mobo.
Rig #1 Asus Rampage Formula Mobo, Intel Core2Quad Q9450 CPU @ 3.55ghz, 2gb Corsair DDR2 1066 Dominator Ram @ 5-5-5-15, TR Ultra 120 Extreme w/ Scythe 9 blade 110 cfm 120mm Fan HSF, HIS Radeon 512mb HD3850 IceQ TurboX GPU, Corsair 620HX P/S, CM Stacker 830 Evo Case, Rig #2 Asus P5W DH Deluxe Mobo, Intel C2D E6600 CPU @ 3.6ghz, 2gb Corsair XMS2 DDR2 800 Ram @ 4-4-4-12-2t, Zalman CNPS9500LED HSF, Sapphire Radeon X850XT PE GPU, Corsair 620HX P/S, Cooler Master Mystique Case, Viewsonic 20.1" Widescreen Digital LCD Monitor, Klipsch Promedia Ultra 5.1 THX Desktop Speakers, http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=348351 http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=236435This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 23. September 2007 @ 19:44
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AfterDawn Addict
2 product reviews
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23. September 2007 @ 19:48 |
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I was going to get a Asus P5B-E, but I got my gigabyte for 65. It was definitely worth it!
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Senior Member
3 product reviews
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23. September 2007 @ 23:39 |
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I'm open to trying a Gigabyte for my HTPC micro box. I know the P5K-VM will OC a E6750 nice and stable but like I said, for this micro box and ThermalRight XP-120, I realy want to utilize C/P ratio overclock. So I looked into the GIGABYTE GA-G33M-S2H Micro ATX. Who is using any of Gigabytes P series and spacifically a P33 micro wiht in C/P ratio full ACPI modes working. I'd also be open to feedback on a full ATX P35 based version too. for the Q6600 and future 45nm version quad.
Combining C & P state (TM2 + C1E); Allows vcore and ratio multiplier to lower together during low or no CPU load and up during medium to full load.
ACPI (Advance Configuration Power Interface): alows S3 "Sleap" auto into "S4" Hibernate then resumes to last user state.
Sony PSP/PS3,
ASUS RAMPAGE II EXTREME(X58) w/ i7 930 DO @ 4.305GHz (205x21 @ 1.323v) 2:8 DDR1680 @ 6-6-6-18
ASUS RAMPAGE EXTREME (X48) w/ Q6600 @ 3.81GHz, 422x9 @ DDR1680 6-7-6-20 @ 1.71v
ASUS CROSSHAIR w/ x2 6400+
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 23. September 2007 @ 23:57
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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24. September 2007 @ 03:48 |
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My basic concern is that no stock hardware should become too hot to touch, the chipset certainly does, and whilst the overclocking process is simple, it's incredibly finicky.
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AfterDawn Addict
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24. September 2007 @ 04:51 |
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Mort81,
Quote:
The asus mobo Sam has is not one of their top end mobos. it uses the nvidia 650i chipset and is notorious for for having problems.
One of the things I don't understand, you might be able to clear up for me. When the P5N-E was first introduced it was touted as the best thing since sliced bread! Leo LaPort (The Computer Guy on the radio) told his many listeners to buy this MB and an Intel E4300, to get the best bang for the buck! He has since publicly retracted that statement! Why was the P5N-E so good in early Reviews and then all that goodness disappeared! Leo's no fool, and he knows his stuff very well. He wouldn't praise something to the hilt unless it was for real!
Back when I built Gina's computer, P5N-Es were being returned to Asus at an alarming rate! Faster than they could supply replacements! I had to wait a couple of extra days to get the last one they sent because Asus had no more in stock and were awaiting a new shipment! Their own Forum had page after page of complaints of all sorts of problems with that particular model MB.
How could something that had shown itself to be so good in the begining, become so bad almost overnight? It wasn't just Leo! Anandteck, Tom's Hardware, PC World and many other reviewers praised this MB to the hilt! Here it is some 6 months later and it still has problems with which slots you put the memory in! I'll buy the "sub-standard" board level components to a degree, but all this time later and there's still no cure for all the problems?
I ran into the same problem as Sam, seeing as I couldn't get it to run over 3.0GHz. I didn't have the heat issue with the Northbridge like Sam does, and it has remained stable at 3.0 with very low temps! I guess what I want to know is how can something like this happen, and why after all these months haven't all these problems been solved? It worked great initially, so why doesn't it work great now?
I just don't quite buy NuckNFuts answer (no offense intended), Quote:
Just like I was saying. The P5N-E is a mid to budget offering so it will not get the attention to fixes and upgrades as the P5N32-E SLI Premium.
I know that if I put my name on something, my reputation goes with that name! Reputation is everything and is essential to future success in any business! I would very much like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
Sincerely,
Russ :>)
GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 24. September 2007 @ 04:51
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AfterDawn Addict
6 product reviews
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24. September 2007 @ 05:00 |
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theone,
I have no answer to that question. you for the most part answered it yourself and you are living proof of some of the problems with the 650i chipset.
Rig #1 Asus Rampage Formula Mobo, Intel Core2Quad Q9450 CPU @ 3.55ghz, 2gb Corsair DDR2 1066 Dominator Ram @ 5-5-5-15, TR Ultra 120 Extreme w/ Scythe 9 blade 110 cfm 120mm Fan HSF, HIS Radeon 512mb HD3850 IceQ TurboX GPU, Corsair 620HX P/S, CM Stacker 830 Evo Case, Rig #2 Asus P5W DH Deluxe Mobo, Intel C2D E6600 CPU @ 3.6ghz, 2gb Corsair XMS2 DDR2 800 Ram @ 4-4-4-12-2t, Zalman CNPS9500LED HSF, Sapphire Radeon X850XT PE GPU, Corsair 620HX P/S, Cooler Master Mystique Case, Viewsonic 20.1" Widescreen Digital LCD Monitor, Klipsch Promedia Ultra 5.1 THX Desktop Speakers, http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=348351 http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=236435 |
AfterDawn Addict
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24. September 2007 @ 05:24 |
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Mort81,
Quote:
I have no answer to that question. you for the most part answered it yourself and you are living proof of some of the problems with the 650i chipset.
I know my answer would be to go back to square 1! Go back to what you know worked and start from there! It doesn't answer the question, it just gives you a good starting point to find a solution to why the problems happened in the first place! I go back to why Sam chose the P5N-E over the DS3. Quote:
From what I've seen, the features for overclocking are far better on Asus boards than Gigabytes (why I bought the P5N-E over the GA-965P-DS3) but the implementation, reliability et. al is better with other brands.
I look back to when you woke me up when I was ready to build my own C2D on a P5N-E. I was too busy drooling over all the bells and whistles and ignored all the pain I went through for almost a month. I am so glad I paid attention to your wake up call and bought the DS3!
Thanks again for your input!
Best Regards,
Russ :>)
GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
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AfterDawn Addict
2 product reviews
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24. September 2007 @ 12:54 |
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I'm looking for some more memory and I saw this
Will this overclock as well as my current memory(537 Mhz)?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 24. September 2007 @ 12:56
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AfterDawn Addict
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24. September 2007 @ 13:35 |
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abuzar1,
Yes, it should overclock as well, but it's cas5 with timings of 5-5-5-15. This is what I'm using for $10 more and should perform better, http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231087
It's cas4 with timings of 4-4-4-12. It's about 20% faster at the same memory speed! Highly recommended!
Best Regards,
theone :>)
GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 24. September 2007 @ 13:37
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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24. September 2007 @ 14:51 |
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I've just ordered myself the Thermalright Ultra 120 cooler and two Scythe 1600 fans (the Kaze White versions), I'll let you know how it turns out.
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Senior Member
1 product review
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24. September 2007 @ 14:55 |
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Originally posted by sammorris:
I've just ordered myself the Thermalright Ultra 120 cooler and two Scythe 1600 fans (the Kaze White versions), I'll let you know how it turns out.
I have been very happy with my Zalman 9500 LED, so far in the program core temp I dont think I have ever had a temp over 35c, and thats under 100% load, and thats under a 64% over clock. (1.86GHz->2.9GHz)
CPUID: 0x6F6
Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo E6300 (Conroe-2M)
Revision: B2
CPU Speed CPU#0 (Core#0) CPU#0 (Core#1)
2891.20 30 31
2891.20 29 31
2891.20 30 31
2891.20 22 29
2891.20 25 30
2891.20 29 32
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crowy
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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24. September 2007 @ 17:04 |
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Yorkfield breaks 7 world records
5.56ghz.
Super pi 1m in 8 seconds.
Now where did I put that LN2 container!!LOL!!!
Regards,Crowy.
If the facts dont fit the theory, change the facts." -- Albert Einstein |
AfterDawn Addict
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24. September 2007 @ 17:18 |
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mikeh0303,
Quote:
and thats under a 64% over clock. (1.86GHz->2.9GHz)
Don't mean to nit pick but actually your math is a little faulty! 2.95GHz would be Aprox. 59%, while your 2.870 in CPUZ would be 55%. If you run OCCT for a few minutes, you will see the percentage of overclock posted. With my E4300 it's at 1.8/3.2 for a 78% OC according to the calculator and is exactly what OCCT reports, so I know the math is right.. When it was at 3.396 it was OC'd 88%, which is the percentage OCCT reported! I hate math so I cheat. I look at OCCT first and then prove it with a calculator. For my 78% you do 1800 x 78% + = 3204 or 3.2GHz.
Crowy,
Quote:
Yorkfield breaks 7 world records
5.56ghz.
Super pi 1m in 8 seconds.
Now where did I put that LN2 container!!LOL!!!
Now there's someone with deep pockets and way too much time on their hands! LOL!!
Best Regards,
Russ :>)
GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 24. September 2007 @ 17:23
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crowy
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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24. September 2007 @ 17:24 |
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AMD Athlon 64 X2 5000+ Dual Core Processor Socket AM2 2.6GHZ Retail Black Box No HSF Unlocked
Here
Could be a good AM2 upgrade.
Would be interesting to see how much faster this one can go as opposed to the locked version.
Russ Quote:
Now there's someone with deep pockets and way too much time on their hands! LOL!!
Now if only I can get DFI/AMD/ and the local gas company to sponsor me I would be quite happy to wring the neck out of the upcoming Phenom's as I have plenty of time but the mortgage/family destroys the money side of things!!ROFL!!
Regards,crowy
If the facts dont fit the theory, change the facts." -- Albert Einstein
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 24. September 2007 @ 17:29
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Senior Member
1 product review
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24. September 2007 @ 18:23 |
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Originally posted by theonejrs:
mikeh0303,
Quote:
and thats under a 64% over clock. (1.86GHz->2.9GHz)
Don't mean to nit pick but actually your math is a little faulty! 2.95GHz would be Aprox. 59%, while your 2.870 in CPUZ would be 55%. If you run OCCT for a few minutes, you will see the percentage of overclock posted. With my E4300 it's at 1.8/3.2 for a 78% OC according to the calculator and is exactly what OCCT reports, so I know the math is right.. When it was at 3.396 it was OC'd 88%, which is the percentage OCCT reported! I hate math so I cheat. I look at OCCT first and then prove it with a calculator. For my 78% you do 1800 x 78% + = 3204 or 3.2GHz.
lol... math is not my best area : )
the link in my sig is a bit old, i have it at 2.9GHz now... just didn't have the time to do the website thing.
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Senior Member
3 product reviews
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24. September 2007 @ 19:19 |
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TO: abuzar1,
Quote:
I'm looking for some more memory and I saw this. Will this overclock as well as my current memory(537 Mhz)?
No, the RAM you list in sig (Crucial Bullistic PC6400) is far better for higher OC to beyond DDR1066 as you already found out, and a tad over 1100 is not hard either. (I got mine to DDR1120 @ 2.4v) I used these when new a yr ago as the non lighted Gold version and they were awsome. I use the PC8500 Tracers recently and are good stable to DDR1250 and nice and tight to 1066 @ 4-4-4-8 @ 2.33v. I did use the others (Corsair XMS PC6400) and not very OC'able beyond 952 stable and as loose as 5-5-5-18-35 @ 2.20v. Now this is just my personal experience with the exact two you asked about (the Tracer had the same D9 chip but w/ added LED's and ground effects lighting) on both ASUS for AMD and Intel accross P35, !975x, nf590i.
Clock On!
Sony PSP/PS3,
ASUS RAMPAGE II EXTREME(X58) w/ i7 930 DO @ 4.305GHz (205x21 @ 1.323v) 2:8 DDR1680 @ 6-6-6-18
ASUS RAMPAGE EXTREME (X48) w/ Q6600 @ 3.81GHz, 422x9 @ DDR1680 6-7-6-20 @ 1.71v
ASUS CROSSHAIR w/ x2 6400+
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 25. September 2007 @ 01:47
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AfterDawn Addict
2 product reviews
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24. September 2007 @ 19:20 |
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I still think it's your memory holding you back.
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AfterDawn Addict
2 product reviews
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24. September 2007 @ 19:26 |
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Yeah the gold ones are almost like mine, except for the better timings, and I think they have some error correction, but I may be wrong about the last part.
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AfterDawn Addict
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24. September 2007 @ 19:40 |
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abuzar1,
Sorry guy! I got the memory all wrong. I wish Corsair would stop fiddling around with the names! LOL!! NuckNFuts is right! Sorry!
Clock On,
theone :>(
GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 24. September 2007 @ 19:47
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Senior Member
3 product reviews
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24. September 2007 @ 20:09 |
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Timings will feel the same for the most part till you get to the 2.3v max end of either version. Some will say the slight extra overhaed of the LED play a toll on bandwidth but I think you'd have to use a memory benchmark to see it if any. I have both Gold and Black Tracer versions of the PC8500 and not seeing a timing drop in the Tracer v/s Gold yet. This was said to also be the case when Corsair 1st introduced them on the XMS Pro 4300 @ 3-3-3-8 and I got 'em and not only did it not effect the tightness, I get them up to DDR830 @ 5-5-5-15 @ 2.2v, So yes you should get as far an OC as the Gold edition as they use the same chip but the mobo and chipset will be the limitinf factor there. !975x is good (best of the 9 series) for the 1066 CPU strap but I like the performance of the P35 for more FSB w/ the new 1333 FSB to beyond 550+ in 1:1 CPU:RAM ratio.
Sony PSP/PS3,
ASUS RAMPAGE II EXTREME(X58) w/ i7 930 DO @ 4.305GHz (205x21 @ 1.323v) 2:8 DDR1680 @ 6-6-6-18
ASUS RAMPAGE EXTREME (X48) w/ Q6600 @ 3.81GHz, 422x9 @ DDR1680 6-7-6-20 @ 1.71v
ASUS CROSSHAIR w/ x2 6400+
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AfterDawn Addict
2 product reviews
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24. September 2007 @ 20:48 |
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So which version is cheaper? I think the gold one right? I'll probably install blue lights in my case any way so I don't need Ram with lights.
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