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Nine Inch Nails_With Teeth Dual Disc Problems
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Blackhalo
Newbie
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7. June 2005 @ 00:33 |
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After purchasing the NIN With_Teeth dual disc, I inserted the disc in my special dvd-audio player and it will not play for anything. Not knowing if the this was a regular dolby digital 5.1 version or a high res DVD-AUDIO, my player confirmed that the disc was a dvd-audio. There are no inscriptions on the outside cover to verify the audio formats. Thinking this might be a bum product, I returned it for another and had the same issues with it too. Specifically the DVD side of the disc, it will only play the music video and the samples from the NIN catalog. I have several other dvd-audio discs and have never come across this issue before now.
I was able to get the dvd-audio side to play in my pc's dvd drive only after re-setting the audio output to dolby digital down-conversion. I own a Pioneer DV-563A dvd-a/sacd player. When the player reads the dvd-a setlist, I can see the players time elapsing as if it were playing but there is no sound output. The players is also stating that it is reading the audio output at 48khz/24bit 3/2.1 sampling rate while Metallica's Black Album dvd-a reads "Enter Sandman" at 98khz/24bit 3/2.1 sampling rate. I was of the understanding that the dvd-a standard was 98khz/24bit only??
If there is anyone else reading this that owns this dual disc and has played it on a dvd-a player, please posts your results and the sound quality/sampling rate.
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diabolos
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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7. June 2005 @ 14:05 |
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Quote:
Metallica's Black Album dvd-a reads "Enter Sandman" at 98khz/24bit 3/2.1 sampling rate. I was of the understanding that the dvd-a standard was 98khz/24bit only??
Some info about DVD-Audio:
Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD-Audio
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 7. June 2005 @ 14:07
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Blackhalo
Newbie
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7. June 2005 @ 23:13 |
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Thank You Diabolos for the helpful link.
It deffinately helps break down the confusion between the
different formats and specs.
I will not be buying any future DualDiscs, being that I have
concluded that they are trying to cram too much marketing swag
into one disc with the quality of the music going down/staying complacent. The SACD will be my drug of choice. There is no
comparison. By the way, If the dualdisc is so dangerouse to so many people's cd drive and if the disc cannot be protected on both sides, why has there not been such a mass recall. Are the Labels not wanting to accept blame?? Were they not properly informed that this format of music/video delivery would be hazordouse to the consumer?
The music industry is really pulling at straws here to get more media into the hands of consumers at any cost, just so they can still sell a tangible piece of product.
Does anyone know if there has been any headline news on this other than the net?? a.k.a. TV,Newspaper.
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samorton
Newbie
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10. June 2005 @ 12:41 |
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Blackhalo,
The problem you are having is the DVD Player itself. I know because I have encounetered the same problem with my player (same model as yours). I just dropped it off today for a firmware upgrade (found out about the upgrade from this site, actually). There is a problem with the firmware (outdated, defective, I don't know). Contact Pioneer customer support, report the problem and then wait for all the red tape to clear so they will authorize the firmware upgrade. Why Pioneer can't post the firmware upgrades on the net is beyond me.
Just thought I would pass this along.
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Blackhalo
Newbie
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11. June 2005 @ 21:11 |
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Hey Samorton, thanks for the heads up on the firmware upgrade. Im at least releaved that the player can be upgraded.
Would you happen to have the email or contact info to Pioneer in regards to the fix?? Did you have to send it to Pioneer direct or via your local retailer where you purchased the unit?
Many thanks again to Samorton for the helpful support.
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samorton
Newbie
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12. June 2005 @ 18:15 |
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Sure. The number I called is 1-800-421-1404. Monday - Friday 7:00 to 4:30p.m. Pacific time.
Here's what you need to do. They don't make it easy, but just tell them what it's doing and you know that others have had the same problem with that particular DVD player. It just needs to have the firmware updated. At least I hope that fixes it. I will let you know once I get mine back, but from what I have read on this site and elsewhere, that mostly seems to do the trick. I believe some of the newer DVD-Audio's are using newer copy protection, and the Pioneer can't read it or won't allow it to play. Like yours, mine reads on the counter when it is playing, but it will not export any audio. I can play the Dolby Digital tracks just fine, but just not the MLP DVD-Audio tracks. Write back and let me know how it goes.
Good luck!
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AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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12. June 2005 @ 18:29 |
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Blackhalo
Could you provdide some information about the hardware and software that you use? What's the make of your reader(DVD/CD Rom Drive)
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
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Blackhalo
Newbie
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12. June 2005 @ 23:00 |
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Quote:
Could you provdide some information about the hardware and software that you use? What's the make of your reader(DVD/CD Rom Drive)
Im refering to a Pioneer DV-563A stand-alone componant player.
I hate to sound cheap, but this particular model was the most economical DVD-A/SACD dual player I could find, roughly about $145.00 at a local BestBuy. If I'm not mistaken, Pioneer is the
only company to produce a dual player, being that both formats are
very proprietary. There are newer models on the market from Pioneer at this time.
I guess this will have to do till Sony comes out with the new PS3, touted as a Blue-Ray/SACD/DVD/Dual HDMI HDTV player.
By the way, What are some of the best DVD-A/SACD discs you guys have heard or own??
My List Goes As Such:
Nine Inch Nails SACD - The Downward Spiral 10th Aniv Re-Release (A)
"Includes 2nd Disc of Unreleased Material in Dolby 2.0" (A++)
Metallica DVD-A - The Black Album (A+)
Dave Koz DVD-A - The Dance (A++)
Linkin Park DVD-A - Reanimation (B)
Stone Temple Pilots DVD-A - Core (B)
Nine Inch Nails,Dual-D - The Downward Spiral 10th Aniv Re-Release (B)
Chevelle, Dual-D - This Type of Thinking - (B)
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samorton
Newbie
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13. June 2005 @ 07:47 |
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I purchased mine at Best Buy also. Until recently, I have loved it. I have no problems with the older DVD-Audios, just the new ones. I purchased the two new Mark Knopfler album's back in April, and it refuses to play the MLP versions of either one of them. I scolded the Pioneer representative about why Pioneer won't post their firmware upgrades on their site. It would make fixing these problems much easier to solve. Others with this model Pioneer are having this problem actually. Like halo said, there aren't a lot of dual players that are affordable out there that will do both, and that is a shame, IMO.
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michilumi
Newbie
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6. July 2005 @ 10:03 |
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"If I'm not mistaken, Pioneer is the only company to produce a dual player, being that both formats are very proprietary."
Not at all. Denon, Yamaha, Samsung, Onkyo, Marantz, Pioneer, Teac, all make dual-format (SACD/DVD-A) players. (I'm probably missing some.) They range in price, but some are as low as $99.
The formats aren't very proprietary, either. DVD-A is licensed through the DVD Forum, same group that licenses DVD Video.
SACD is licensed via Sony and Philips (NOT! only sony) and is available to ANY company that had a CD license at no additional cost. (sort of.)
HOWEVER: BLACKHALO -- A NOTE ON YOUR PLAYER!!
The DV-563a has a firmware issue! The symptom is exactly what you're describing: Some DVD-A's just don't play. Unfortunately, the only solution is to send the player to Pioneer's repair in Ohio, where they upgrade the firmware. (They don't provide an upgrade disc or download to the end user! :( ) ... I just went through this with my 563a, and ended up taking it back.
Several newer DVD-A's wont play on the 563a.
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makanmata
Newbie
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2. August 2005 @ 14:31 |
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The reason why Pioneer DVD Players won't play a lot of discs is that they are not fully compatible with the DVD Video standard.
www.pioneerdvdclassaction.com
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samorton
Newbie
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8. August 2005 @ 08:58 |
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I just got my Pioneer back from the shop (after a two month firmware upgrade). It works fine now and will play the DVD-Audio disks it would not before just fine. The tech I spoke to said it isn't actually uploaded firmware but a chip that had to be replaced. Go figure. Seems like a lot of work whereas most players have downloadable firmware that fixes most of these problems, but hey, I am not complaining. At least it works now.
Halo, if you have not done so, you might consider havign them upgrade it for you.
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Senior Member
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12. January 2006 @ 00:25 |
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Pioneer's "interpretations" of the DVD-Audio specs have been a serious problem for some time now.
There is an ever expanding list of discs this machine will simply either not play at all, or will pretend to play, even showing the timer counting, but you will get zero output.
I can add other titles to the list of discs that are known to be a problem in these machines:
1 - The Who. Tommy DVD-A
2 - T. Rex - Electric Warrior DVD-A
3 - David Bowie - David Live DVD-A
4 - David Bowie - Stage DVD-A
5 - Simple Minds - The DTS Signature series DVD-A
for a lot of others, including SACD and DualDisc, see www.quadraphonicquad.com and go to the DVD-A hardware section. See the Pioneer DV 563 Firmware campaign thread.
This is because they do not adhere to the specs properly.
Additionally, in DVD-A mode, they route everything below 200Hz to the LFE channel which is totally unacceptable.
Universal players are a lot better than this normally.
I can personally recommend the Denon 2910 unit. Not that cheap, but can be found for good money online, and mine plays everything I have thrown at it so far.
Basically, the only Pioneer machine to trust id the DV45a. That really is a good machine.
Avoid the 563 like you would the clap.
And it's replacements are not much better either. In the 578, things that were broken in the 563 are indeed fixed but things that worked in the 563 are broken in the 578.
The suit that is referred to earlier is absolutely nothing to do with DualDiscs that hold DVD-A content.
Whilst we are talking about DualDisc, we can thank SONY for watering it down, and nobody else. The original DualDisc proposal was to have Red Book on the CD side, and DVD-A on the DVD side. The DVD-A content should consist of High Res 24/48 or even 24/96 Multichannel, along with both DTS and Dolby Digital versions included in a Video_TS folder too. This makes the DVD side playable on ALL dvd players, not just DVD-A. But Sony, with their usual greed and bloody mindedness, decided to fake it all out by having only DVD-V content.
Usually, with Sony BMG, this means so called "enhanced" stereo at 16/48 - hardly worth the effort.
At best with SonyBMG you get Dolby Digital. This is sonic garbage when cpmpared to DTS or MLP (PPCM).
SACD suck big time IMHO.
The noise problem is horrendous, and for those who do not know what I mean, there is nothing above 23KHz in SACD except noise, and lots of it too. All SACD actually sound better when played back through 23KHz LPF. This has been proved conclusively by none other than John Watkinson - the man who wrote the book on Pro Digital Audio (literally. His "The Art of Digital Audio" is a true classic and a standard for the industry.)
Anyway, John played back to a room full of "golden Ears" a selection of tracks.
Some were SACD, others were well produced Red Book. (Not, I hasten to add, the usual crap that is released these days. I am referring to the modern practise of excessive overcompression & limiting to make the signal hotter, not the actual music)
Anyway, the general consnsus was agreed as to what sounded better, and to a man they all picked the CD over the SACD.
Then John switched in an LPF set to 23KHz, and the SACD all sounded lots better. But oddly enough, still not as good as the CD.
SACD is a nasty single birt system that requires heroic noise shaping to make it work. The noise is all shifted into the ultrasonic regions which makes a mockery of the supposed bandwidth available.
Compared to a well made 24/96 DVD-A, the SACD will sound much worse when played on correctly set up equipment.
To make SACD sound acceptable, you really need LPF in your system.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 12. January 2006 @ 00:27
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haysonics
Newbie
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30. January 2006 @ 18:07 |
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"there is nothing above 23KHz in SACD except noise, and lots of it too."
I know I might run into trouble with some readers for saying this but if our ears can't perceive sound above about 18 or maybe 20KHz then it doesn't seem so bad that Sony/Philips got around their noise issue by shoving all of it above the 23K band.
I'll clarify the above by mentioning that I read an article somewhere that talked about the benefits of higher frequencies and it wasn't talking about our hearing ability but instead about how higher rates allow for better spatial separation of sounds and other technical wizardry. So I am not saying higher frequencies aren?t beneficial for the "traditional" digital recording process either BUT that
DSD/SACD is a different way of doing things and while it is only 1 bit that is kind of the point ! Instead of a 16 or 24Bit word, just use 1 Bit and sample up in the gigahertz range. I know they had to hide the noise and use "heroic" shaping to make it work but I kind of like that they tried a different approach to recording. I know that some will argue that Sony/Philips ventured off in their own direction in order to end up with a proprietary format but it also shows how commercial incentive can lead to radical (new) technologies.
As to whether SACD sounds better or worse (gasp) that cd, anyone else want to chip in on that ?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 31. January 2006 @ 15:18
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budberner
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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3. February 2006 @ 08:51 |
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I don't know if this is the "right" place and I don't want to hijack this thread. I have one of the discs that Blackhalo mentioned. Chevelle. I was able to make a copy but it's distorted. You can tell I don't know jack when it comes to audio. Looking for advice to make a cd with listenable music for my wifes car.
budberner
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Senior Member
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3. February 2006 @ 09:09 |
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@ Haysonics.
I'd like to reproduce the answer given to the SACD/DSD against DVD-A/PCM issue over at the Nuendo forums by Nika Aldrich, who literally "wrote the Book" on Digital Audio....
Quote:
Neil Wilkes wrote:
Would be very interested to hear your thoughts on this one, given the hammering John Watkinson has given SACD and DSD in general.
There are a lot of pretty serious issues about DSD. At the root of it is that it was not intended to be a delivery format when Sony had the brilliant idea to make it one. It was really just an intermediate stage of an old format conversion process. As digital audio has moved along and we've come up with new advances DSD is still stuck in mid-80's conversion, essentially. Further, the reasons Sony has pushed it to market are suspicious and of concern. The format is clearly lacking in several ways, but Sony has been pushing it proprietarily despite strong concerns from the most brilliant minds in the industry - including those within Sony. At some point it starts to look like the big corporate steam-roller plowing the industry over looking for $$. It can't be any surprise that people like Watkinson are screaming so loudly.
Quote:
Also, why are there serious noise issues with DSD?
There are a couple reasons. The most predominant has to do with the fact that it's a 1-bit system, so it only gets 6dB of dynamic range. This range is fortunately spread across the entire bandwidth below Nyquist, so from 0Hz to 1.14MHz. And noise-shaping helps push most of it out of the audible range. But if you sample at 1 bit you only get 6dB of overall dynamic range, so you inherently have a lot of noise present. Make sense?
Quote:
Surely this gives the lie to either
A - the supposed "massive" bandwidth of DSD, or
B - there is anything up there to hear in the first place.
There's a trade-off. If you count only the bandwidth up to 20kHz you get to brag about it's dynamic range - equivalent to 20 bit audio. If you brag about it's great bandwidth capabilities then you have to start looking at the vastly decreasing dynamic range above the audible range. Either way it comes down to smoke and mirrors and impressive marketing. The performance is potentially different from PCM due to the distortion and noise in DSD and the inability to make identical equipment for mastering/mixing, so the results are inherently different. There are some other reasons that are largely negligeable.
In the end I'm not a fan for the same reason as the others. Even if the current implementation of DSD provides improvement over the current implementation of PCM in most equipment I am far more in favor of figuring out why and improving the system that is conceptually and theoretically superior than chasing a system that is inherently broken.
DSD really isn't as good in all manner of ways. But that is a whole different thread, I apologise for going there in the first place in a topic that has nothing to do with this. That was out of order, and I will probably start a new thread on this one - feelings run high on both sides of the fence.
@budberner.
What player are you using if you cannot get the disc to play?
Also, I assume that you copied the Red Book side, and how good the copy will be is going to depend on how good the source was - with SonyBMG Hybrid SACD and DualDisc, there is a very nasty suspicion that they are deliberately making the redbook portions dreadful.
How did you make the copy of the redbook side also, please? This may - or may not - have some bearing on why the copy was so distorted.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 3. February 2006 @ 09:11
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budberner
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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3. February 2006 @ 10:05 |
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Could you read " I cannot get the disc to play"? I had wrote that but erased that part. I can't see it on my end Strange? Ok I could only play the cd side on my external sony rebadged lite on, that is it. I copied the cd side with windows media player I believe. I know not real impressive, I don't know for sure. I can play dvd side on sanyo stand alone and computer drives. The burned copy of cd side will play on sony stand alone and in the car but like I said distorted. Thanks in advance.
budberner
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Senior Member
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3. February 2006 @ 10:55 |
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Could you read " I cannot get the disc to play"? I had wrote that but erased that part. I can't see it on my end Strange? Ok I could only play the cd side on my external sony rebadged lite on, that is it. I copied the cd side with windows media player I believe. I know not real impressive, I don't know for sure. I can play dvd side on sanyo stand alone and computer drives. The burned copy of cd side will play on sony stand alone and in the car but like I said distorted. Thanks in advance.
Nope - didn't - and still can't - see that bit. All I can read is I don't know if this is the "right" place and I don't want to hijack this thread. I have one of the discs that Blackhalo mentioned. Chevelle. I was able to make a copy but it's distorted. You can tell I don't know jack when it comes to audio. Looking for advice to make a cd with listenable music for my wifes car..
So - the player will not see the DVD-A side?
What player is it you are using on that part - is it definitely DVD-Audio capable? Sony (who else) have buggered DualDisc up by only releasing DVD-V layers (often in mere stereo too) as opposed to the original idea of DualDisc which was to have CD on one side and DVD-A on the other. If you can tell me what player you are using, we will see what we will see.
Regarding WMP, it isn't the best to use, not by a long shot. How well this works seems to depend on a lot of odd things, as it's all controlled by DirectShow which is flaky to say the least.
The CD side should be standard red book type, although according to Philips it isn't true redbook. You should be able to copy this exact bit-for-bit using pretty well any CD copy program without getting distortion.
Try GEAR Video 8 (www.gearsoftware.com for a 30 day tryout).
It's only $59, and will create any type of disc you need.
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