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DVD-Audio watermarks
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Senior Member
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26. April 2009 @ 12:53 |
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Originally posted by stephano1:
My Samsung mutes playback at 15 seconds on every compilation. Maybe the 30 second watermark isn't detected by the Samsung? There could be a difference in protection level between 15 and 30 second watermarks? I'll look into it.
It would seem that you're correct from looking at the specs from Verance. I'm not too sure I understand what is really happening here, but there seem to be 2 levels. Both levels are controlled with the CCI bit, as watermarking is controlled by the CCI bit as well as the CPPM.
To quote from the specs:
Quote:
3.0 Detection Time Window and Criteria: The 4C 12 Bit Watermark shall be embedded per Section 2.0 above such that it is possible to detect all bits of the 4C Data Payload (CNTRL and RSVD FIELD) at least once every 15 second interval of the content in a manner consistent with the detection criteria in Table 1 and Table 2 and the ARIS Specification. For reference, the optional ISRC field (if any) shall be embedded per the above format such that it
is possible to detect all 60 bits of ISRC at least once every 30 second interval of the content, in a way that does not interfere with achieving the detection performance of the CNTRL and RSVD bits (a professional detector may be used for purposes of ISRC).
Table 1: 4C 12 Bit Watermark Detection Window and False Positive Rate
Type Size Detection Time
Window
False Positive Rate
CNTRL 4 bits 15 seconds Less than 10-12
RSVD FIELD 8 bits 15 seconds Not applicable
ISRC * 60 bits 30 seconds Not applicable
* Provided for illustrative purposes only.
Additionally, we read that
Quote:
4.0 Detector Function: Detection shall be performed either: (a) for each 15 second detection period on a pseudo-randomly selected channel chosen out of the total available (not including the low frequency effects channel in the case of multichannel); or (b) in such manner as might be approved in the future. At the conclusion of each 15 second detection period (or sooner), the detector shall report the status of all CNTRL and RSVD FIELD bits.
I wonder if the difference is in the way the CCI bit is set? There are options available from "One Copy, Three Copies, Unlimited Copies" at varying bit depths & sample rates (CD Quality, Full Quality).
I'd very much like to learn what titles you have successfully cloned.
None of the attempts I have made have worked, with the sole exception of one that did work, without the "Use Original IFO" checked, but that gave zero picture & zero audio.
All clones in the Denon players don't mute either - they put the player into STOP mode.
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stephano1
Newbie
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26. April 2009 @ 16:53 |
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I aquired a copy of "Nightfly". It would not pass watermark detection in my Samsung, even though in DVDAExplorer.exe it says "copy freely". I looked at the files in the AUDIO_TS folder. No DVDAUDIO.MKB was present. I copied and pasted a DVDAUDIO.MKB from a working copy of a different disc to the "Nightfly" AUDIO_TS folder, and created a new image. The modified "Nightfly" disc now passes watermark detection in my Samsung. Explain that.
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stephano1
Newbie
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26. April 2009 @ 20:23 |
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By transplanting a DVDAUDIO.MKB from a working DVDFab5 Platinum clone into a compilation AUDIO_TS folder, I can now make compilation DVD-Audios that pass watermark detection in my Samsung. I will have to test this in other players.
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stephano1
Newbie
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26. April 2009 @ 20:45 |
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You can't remove the watermark, but you can lie to the watermark detector. This is true, at least with the Samsung HD841, and maybe some other players.
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stephano1
Newbie
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2. May 2009 @ 12:17 |
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Transplanting a DVDUDIO.MKB from a working DVDFab 5 Platinum clone into the AUDIO_TS folder of a compilation disc has disabled watermark detection on every disc I tried in my Samsung HD841. I need to verify this with other watermark detecting players. This could be a fluke with the Samsung.
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Senior Member
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2. May 2009 @ 13:30 |
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Originally posted by stephano1:
Transplanting a DVDUDIO.MKB from a working DVDFab 5 Platinum clone into the AUDIO_TS folder of a compilation disc has disabled watermark detection on every disc I tried in my Samsung HD841. I need to verify this with other watermark detecting players. This could be a fluke with the Samsung.
I just don't know. It's strange though, and at least you can get it working for you - which ain't a bad thing.
It's also possible that it might be the denons causing the trouble?
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jjolson
Junior Member
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15. May 2009 @ 13:49 |
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There are *three* different kinds of DVD-Audio players:
* Those who doesn't check watermarks at all, will play all clones and compilations. [Oppo]
* Players that always checks watermarks and refuses to play any watermarked copies. [Denon]
* Players that start checking for a .MKB file. If one exists, it doesn't check for watermarks and will play a clone. If there is no .MKB file, it checks for watermarks and will refuse to play that disc. [Samsung]
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manisiutk
Newbie
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11. June 2009 @ 13:16 |
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There is a new paper on subject
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 26. June 2009 @ 02:59
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68vista
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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17. June 2009 @ 12:18 |
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Originally posted by jjolson:
There are *three* different kinds of DVD-Audio players:
* Those who doesn't check watermarks at all, will play all clones and compilations. [Oppo]
* Players that always checks watermarks and refuses to play any watermarked copies. [Denon]
* Players that start checking for a .MKB file. If one exists, it doesn't check for watermarks and will play a clone. If there is no .MKB file, it checks for watermarks and will refuse to play that disc. [Samsung]
Can anyone tell me if this is good for all OPPO's?
Thanks!
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quicksrt
Newbie
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13. August 2009 @ 23:17 |
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Originally posted by jjolson:
There are *three* different kinds of DVD-Audio players:
* Those who doesn't check watermarks at all, will play all clones and compilations. [Oppo]
* Players that always checks watermarks and refuses to play any watermarked copies. [Denon]
* Players that start checking for a .MKB file. If one exists, it doesn't check for watermarks and will play a clone. If there is no .MKB file, it checks for watermarks and will refuse to play that disc. [Samsung]
Yes, but Stephano is claiming that copies with watermark "clones" should play on Denons if they appear to be original discs. And that is the object here, to recreate a disc that appears to be an original Stephano claims to have done this.
I would be one to have a Denon, but I am going to try and do exactly what is said to work.
Anyway, just wanted to bump this tread up as it is interesting.
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quicksrt
Newbie
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14. August 2009 @ 00:11 |
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Bump this thread indeed I did.
Ok, I just decided to start with simply attempting to copy a DVD-A disc with DVD Shrink, you get an image or Video TS and Audio TS file set of files on HDD to work from.
Deep Purple's legendary hard rock masterwork Machine Head was dropped into the Pioneer DVD-R drive and full back-up was clicked in Shrink. I dropped a cheap blank into the burner knowing that I was making brand new coasters with this. Many coasters were likely to be made.
But....guess what..... This disc is now playing in my Denon 1600 blasting out not only "Highway Star" but now "Maybe I'm a Leo" is also playing. I got no muted audio, nor any freeze-up on the player.
I am listening to the stereo layer, and will get to the 5.1 very shortly.
But I thought that this was going to be harder, and here I got success on first try.
Amazing! Could the watermarking detection be broken on my player?
Please God let the 5.1 be intact too!!!
I'll report.
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68vista
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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14. August 2009 @ 12:28 |
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DVD-Fab seems to do the job. Give it a try. Remember to save it to an iso file so you can make more than one copy!
http://www.dvdfab.com/
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68vista
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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14. August 2009 @ 12:41 |
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Originally posted by 68vista:
DVD-Fab seems to do the job. Give it a try. Remember to save it to an iso file so you can make more than one copy!
http://www.dvdfab.com/
Forgot to mention....use the "clone" option.
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quicksrt
Newbie
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14. August 2009 @ 14:28 |
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Are you selling DVDFab? Or are you just the promotion dept?
Anyway, my copy of Machine Head has only the Dolby Digital tracks. So it does have stereo and 5.1, but not high resolution PCM 5.1 tracks. But still a playable 5.1 DVD audio disc was made. Al Green hits did not have any audio after copying. REM - Automatic for the People also was copied and played back DD track, not high rez.
It seems that even if I were to clone a DVD-A disc to heard drive, I would need dual layer discs to burn the data to, as these are all dual layer discs.
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68vista
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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17. August 2009 @ 09:49 |
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Originally posted by quicksrt:
Are you selling DVDFab? Or are you just the promotion dept?
Anyway, my copy of Machine Head has only the Dolby Digital tracks. So it does have stereo and 5.1, but not high resolution PCM 5.1 tracks. But still a playable 5.1 DVD audio disc was made. Al Green hits did not have any audio after copying. REM - Automatic for the People also was copied and played back DD track, not high rez.
It seems that even if I were to clone a DVD-A disc to heard drive, I would need dual layer discs to burn the data to, as these are all dual layer discs.
Sorry, but I'm not associated with DVDFab in any way beyond having used it and finding that it works for backing up DVD-Audio disks. I thought I would post that information to assist any forum members who are still looking for a way to do this. Have you found something better?
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stephano1
Newbie
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19. August 2009 @ 09:40 |
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jjolson, may be right about there being three different types of DVD-Audio players. The method I described here works in two out of the three types for sure. If your attempts at cloning do not work in your player, try another player. When I get time I will try more players. We are talking about the contents of the AUDIO_TS folder, If this folder is empty you do not have a DVD-Audio disc.
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harrydvd
Newbie
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8. October 2009 @ 00:06 |
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Originally posted by wilkes:
I have to admit I have never heard of a disc with no Video_TS before this - it's extremely rare, because you're limiting sales to Audio players - which from the label's point of view is plain silly.
I never knew about the Roy Orbison not having VIDEO_TS. Afaik DVD-A discs MUST have VIDEO_TS lossy content, otherwise they can't legally display the DVD-A logo. I don't have the Roy Orbison so I'm not sure if it does. But all HDAD discs are examples of this - on one side there's the VIDEO_TS and the other the AUDIO_TS. The "DVD-A side" is technically out of spec for DVD-A, but it's ok since it doesn't carry the "DVD-A" logo anyway.
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