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GPL violation by ratDVD ?
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ChrisHJW
Newbie
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27. July 2005 @ 12:17 |
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Hi,
we, the matroska team, have patiently been waiting that the full sourcecode of the menue navigation filter would be released, in order to fulfil the GPL license of the libdvdnav library which has been used for it. We frankly admit that we would like to use the code as an inspiration for our own menue filter, in order to make MKV file playback with menues possible on DirectShow players like WMP.
We understand from looking at oyur code that you have wrapped the libdvdnav lib into a COM object, and that you are linking to it from your navigation filter. However, please allow us to tell you that this is most definitely NOT in compliance with the GPL license of libdvdnav :
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#LinkingOverControlledInt...
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html
Doing what you did is NOT enough to fulfil the GPL license, and we are urging you to release the FULL SOURCECODE of your filter to the OSS world within the next 2 weeks.
matroska is an opensource project itself, and we are releasing all project code under a L-GPL or even BSD license, to allow people to use our format free of cost or obligation. Your strange behaviour about wrapping your filter around a libdvdnav with a COM interface can do nothing else but make us believe you have different intentions with your program than actually serving the users.
Christian
matroska project admin
http://www.matroska.org
http://www.matroska.org - support the future of free, x-platform and opensource audio/video container formats - visit us on irc.corecodec.com #matroska
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Gamestr
Newbie
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31. July 2005 @ 11:21 |
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This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 31. July 2005 @ 11:22
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Sokaku
Newbie
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16. August 2005 @ 02:16 |
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I read "We frankly admit that we would like to use the code as an inspiration for our own menue filter" as, "we're too stupid to make this ourselves, so we have to copy your work".
Its pathetic when you try to force someone into releasing a solution to a problem you're obviously not skilled enough to create yourself. As if you have the right to this information when ever it pleases you.
I do belive in the open source community,- however, as a programmer, I also believe that people should decide themselves when its time to open _their_ source to the community. As long as he is not making any money off the source he is using, you should put a sock in it and give the guy a break!
I urge the Rat guy, if this nonsense continues, to put all his closed code into a closed library A that grants NOONE the right to use it. Then grasp ALL the GPL'ed modules in the world that he needs and then make a thin little program that wraps it all up and uses A and all the GPL'ed modules and releases this program under GPL.
Then annoying people like Chris can go look else where with that attitude.
- Sokaku
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ChrisHJW
Newbie
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16. August 2005 @ 08:55 |
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Quote:
I read "We frankly admit that we would like to use the code as an inspiration for our own menue filter" as, "we're too stupid to make this ourselves, so we have to copy your work".
Stupid ? You are calling the matroska team stupid ? Thanks mate. Please do me a favour and don't use our software, will you ? It's simply a matter of time.
The idea idea of Linux, the mother of the GPL ( i bet you didn't know this ? ), is to reuse existing code within the community. That's the reason why the code is shared, but people using it are forced to make their derived work based on it also open, so that other people can reuse what they have done.
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Its pathetic when you try to force someone into releasing a solution to a problem you're obviously not skilled enough to create yourself. As if you have the right to this information when ever it pleases you.
Let's get one thing straight here :
Without other people making their code open, there wouldn't be a ratDVD, no way. Or would you like to tell me this guy wrote a video codec from scratch, in little less than 3 months ? Go on dreaming boy.
I'd really love to have somebody from the XviD team to be allowed to browse through his sources, just browsing of course, and i wonder if they guy allowed them to do that ? Did he actually ask the libdvdnav devs what they think about him wrapping their code into a COM object ? Somebody with manners, and a clean intention, would have done so.
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I do belive in the open source community,- however, as a programmer, I also believe that people should decide themselves when its time to open _their_ source to the community. As long as he is not making any money off the source he is using, you should put a sock in it and give the guy a break!
Again :
THIS GUY IS USING OTHER PEOPLE'S WORK !!! And he didn't ask them what they think about him putting it all into a COM object, to be able to 'circumvent' their license. These people choose the GPL for a reason, and this is because they believe in the power of sharing existing code within the community. If there is somebody who needs to get a break here, it's me.
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I urge the Rat guy, if this nonsense continues, to put all his closed code into a closed library A that grants NOONE the right to use it. Then grasp ALL the GPL'ed modules in the world that he needs and then make a thin little program that wraps it all up and uses A and all the GPL'ed modules and releases this program under GPL.
Again, this is not GPL thinking. If Linus Torwald would have had this thinking, Linux simply wouldn't exist.
But allow me a question :
If the ratDVD guys have no financial interests, why would they decide to NOT release the sources ? Why wrapping a COM object around libdvdnav ? Why the hassle ?
I found the answer for myself, if you sit down and think logical only for a second, i trust you will also know why.
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Then annoying people like Chris can go look else where with that attitude.
... i go tell Linus Torwald, Avery Lee (Virtualdub) and the whole XviD team what you think of our 'annoying' attitude, ok ? In return, you don't use these programs anymore, will you ?
Christian
matroska project admin
http://www.matroska.org
http://www.matroska.org - support the future of free, x-platform and opensource audio/video container formats - visit us on irc.corecodec.com #matroska
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Staff Member
2 product reviews
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16. August 2005 @ 09:09 |
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Quote:
I read "We frankly admit that we would like to use the code as an inspiration for our own menue filter" as, "we're too stupid to make this ourselves, so we have to copy your work".
You're certainly free to interpret that statement any way you'd like, but given the history of Matroska's development that would be completely unfounded in anything except your own reading of his statement.
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Its pathetic when you try to force someone into releasing a solution to a problem you're obviously not skilled enough to create yourself. As if you have the right to this information when ever it pleases you.
The "right" to the source code already exists if, in fact, the GPL license that the developer of ratDVD implicitly agreed to by using GPL code in his project requires it. There have been good arguments made as to whether this is really a requirement because of how that code is used, but Christian didn't claim that it was his right because he says so, just that he believes the GPL requires it.
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I do belive in the open source community,- however, as a programmer, I also believe that people should decide themselves when its time to open _their_ source to the community. As long as he is not making any money off the source he is using, you should put a sock in it and give the guy a break!
Once again, if Christian's interpretation of the GPL is correct it doesn't matter what you, or RatDVD's author, or Christian want. Using the code is an implicit acceptance of the GPL's terms and therefore the only real question is what's legally required.
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Sokaku
Newbie
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16. August 2005 @ 11:05 |
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Granted, - GPL, Open Source is nice, its good, a pool of knowledge and its a blessing to the nerd/geek society of which I happen to be a part of.
Sure, if people embed GPL'ed code, they are forced to go GPL too, that?s the way it works. But this is not the case here, the COM server is open source, so feel free to go get it at ratDVD.dk/downloads/libdvdnav.zip" class="korostus" target="_blank">http://www.ratDVD.dk/downloads/libdvdnav.zip Such a pity it doesn't include the particular piece of code you don?t know how to write and want to steal, right?
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Why wrapping a COM object around libdvdnav ?
Well duh! If you've read just a tiny bit on the rat homepage, then you must have stumbled over the ratDVD.dk/code.htm" class="korostus" target="_blank">http://www.ratDVD.dk/code.htm part, there you can see that this a not a "Linux", "configure.sh is teh rox0rz", "do it the #!sh way", "VI rules!" "Ohh Torvalds is God!" program.
Sorry about that, got carried away... :-)
Its a win32 program, - Win32 code often happen to use components that accidentally happens to be COM objects! Why? Because COM objects can be use in VB, C/C++, C#, Delphi and my guess is that they can probably be used in Perl and Python too!
Welcome to the world of Microsoft Windows, you know, the OS that 95% of the world use?!?
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Linus Torwald, Avery Lee (Virtualdub) and the whole XviD team what you think of our 'annoying' attitude, ok ? In return, you don't use these programs anymore, will you ?
Your arrogance never ceases to amaze me.
I am defiantly going to use Linux, VirtualDub, DVD Decrypter, DVDShrink, Emacs, LaTeX, GNU C/C++ and ANYTHING else I can lay my hands on. HOWEVER! I will promise NEVER to try and force someone else to disclose their work, just so that I can steal it, I'm beyond that.
Have you ever wondered what would have happened if you'd asked the Rat dude politely to give you some hints about how to solve your problem? Instead of just giving him attitude, arrogance, flame, deadlines and accusations?
Do you really think this is how the Open Source community works?
I seriously hope that YOUR project becomes a big success, hell; I even hope that you get your problem solved and it turns out to be one hell of a solution that you're really proud of releasing. One that make you feel good about yourself. So good, that you too, will be beyond forcing people to disclose source code that they are not ready or willing to disclose, even though you may disagree with that decision.
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Slayer102
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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16. August 2005 @ 11:08 |
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finally i found someone on
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ChrisHJW
Newbie
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16. August 2005 @ 11:52 |
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I have been around for a while, and i have been a witness of a few flame threads. I admit i have even been the reason for some of them, or at least heavily involved. As a sign of respect towards the admins of this board, this is going to be my last post on this thread.
You may repeat as often as you may that we are trying to 'steal' his code, that won't make it any more true. As matroska's menue system is much different than the one from a DVD, and thus from ratDVD menues, we can't reuse his work at all.
The main reason i am pissed about what has happened here is really, that we maybe could have learned something from looking at his sourcecode, most specifically the way he is interfacing to DirectShow, and this could have helped us to save a serious amount of time.
Now, when speaking about time, this is exactly where the GPL will come in again. Opensource projects are being developed by volunteers in their freetime. You say you are a programmer ... well, have you ever volunteered in an OSS project ? If you would, you'd know how much it helps to be able to look at others source, or even use them, to save precious time.
You call that 'Stealing' ? No, it's NOT ! It's the basis of the GPL idea !! You use other people's code, and share yours. Quite simple. And no, this is NOT a matter of personal choice. If you decide to use GPL code, the license dictates that you share your code with others !
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Sure, if people embed GPL'ed code, they are forced to go GPL too, that?s the way it works. But this is not the case here, the COM server is open source, so feel free to go get it at ratDVD.dk/downloads/libdvdnav.zip" class="korostus" target="_blank">ratDVD.dk/downloads/libdvdnav.zip" class="korostus" target="_blank">http://www.ratDVD.dk/downloads/libdvdnav.zip Such a pity it doesn't include the particular piece of code you don?t know how to write and want to steal, right?
The GPL will clearly allow using COM objects only in exceptions, like when the GPL code being used is not playing a major role. Speaking of the navigation filter here, the COM object is clearly doing the main work, i.e. the menue navigation. There is nothing to discuss here, what the ratDVD guys are doing is without any doubt a violation of the GPL. Period !
Now, i admit i was pissed about this, again because looking at the sources, which ought to be released in any case according to GPL, could have saved us some time. You call my reaction inappropriate ? To help you a bit, even some of the matroska team members didn't like what i did.
In any case, if these guys will go commercial one day, and although i can't prove it, this is what i believe is going to happen, there will at least have been a warning voice to you guys. In this case, if only one of you will stop and consider what is happening here, the thread will have served its purpose already.
Christian
matroska project admin
http://www.matroska.org
http://www.matroska.org - support the future of free, x-platform and opensource audio/video container formats - visit us on irc.corecodec.com #matroska
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Gamestr
Newbie
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22. August 2005 @ 07:02 |
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Some good points (posted on the FFmpeg-devel mailing-list by respected MPlayer devevlopers):
http://mplayerhq.hu/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2005-August/003319.html Quote:
The criteria is actually very simple. If the non-free program depends
on GPL program to work, then they are linked, thus the comersial
program is in violation.
It doesn't matter what interface they use and how they are connected.
This also have to say that all MPlayer frontends should be (L)GPL compatable.
It could be easily tested. Stop the internet connection, install and
run that ratDVD. If it can play DVD without libdvdnav, then it is ok.
http://mplayerhq.hu/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2005-August/003327.html Quote:
It does matter, as long as the party making the proprietary program is
distributing the GPL module with the intent that it be used as part of
their proprietary program. In this case they are, and there is no
drop-in replacement. See the objective-C case for a similar scenario
in which the infringing party settled.
Natrually no one is bound by the GPL if they are not distributing the
GPL program and the GPL program just happens to be usable when
interfaced with their proprietary program. However, when they ARE
distributing the GPL program, and their product DOES NOT WORK
WHATSOEVER without it, they MUST comply with the terms of the GPL.
Just delete dvdnav.dll from RatDVD filter then see if you can navigate/use the .ratdvd menus 
PS! Read more agruments for and againts RatDVD GPL violation on Doom9's forum thread here:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=97893
XBMC Project Manager
xboxmediacenter.com
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. August 2005 @ 07:08
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recca421
Newbie
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10. September 2005 @ 00:30 |
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*rant mode on*
I must admit to knowing squat about the GPL or indeed *any* licensing system. Hell, I've probably agreed 100x over that software developers can come into my house, poke through my stuff, have their evil way with me, then give me a chainsaw double lobotomy - all because I just have to use the software, and I don't care if the license says I'm only supposed to use it every tuesday of the 3rd week of odd-numbered months. I don't read licenses ever.
I myself have re-packaged various essential software into new install packs. My licensing agreement is blank, with simply an "I agree" and there *is* no "i do not agree" button.
*rant mode off*
That having been said...
Christian : you do have a point, but . . . are *you* the one in charge of deciding what GPL'ed software can or can't be wrapped as a COM object? doubt it.
This whole thread would have more "clout" if you weren't wanting to specifically examine his code just to save yourselves dev time. You admit that yourself, right?
I'm inclined to ask why you haven't simply made an effort to contact the author of the software directly? stop trying to stir up shit in forums dedicated to software usage, rather than licensing technicalities.
you won't stop me using this program or any other by saying "he's violating blah!". but thanks for giving me a reason to see if my account was still active.
[Recca421]
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 10. September 2005 @ 00:31
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phkninja
Newbie
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12. September 2005 @ 13:13 |
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Sokaku, may i just point out one major flaw in your reasoning as to why ratDVD sources should not be distributed.
As stated above ratDVD is using libdvdnav, a GPL'ed library. You state that the reason matroska want the code is to "steal" the updates that have been made in ratDVD. By not complying with the GPL, in any way, ratDVD is by rights (in your interprtation of matroskas intent) is "stealing". Who owns libdvdnav? answer: the open source community (like those in matroska and in gnu). Under the license libdvdnav is distributed under, the modifications made by ratDVD must be released back to the community (states any derivitive or modification to original code must be released under the GPL).
Secondly, dont know where you get your statistics from (probably Bill Gates) but Windows is actually NOT used by 95% of people in the world. I think (but cant be sure) the latest count brought windows in at 85%, Mac OS (in any variety) 5% and Linux at 7% and others at 3%. That means 15% of people DONT use Windows.
BTW. all these statistics are irrelavant as they only count sold licences. There are very many users of linux who buy a computer (from companies liek Dell) with windows preinstalled. And what do they do? format and install linux, as it usually costs more to buy the parts and build a computer than to buy a premade one from a company like Dell, and such companies rarely sell the computers packages with linux (recently they have started but not to the same level as Windows).
Also since Mac have decided to use intel processors it means Mac OS and Linux will run the same programs so it also means there will be less reasons to use windows (some people require a PC for specific tasks thet Apple vomputers cannot fulfil. These people require programs for these tasks that are usually only developed for Mac OS and Windows, as companies up until recently have not wanted to embrace linux. As the same hardware is going to be used, and Mac OS and Linux are UNIX derived (dont get into the whole SCO debate) these programs will be available for Linux with little modification.
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Sokaku
Newbie
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12. September 2005 @ 15:14 |
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What a load of OS yahoo! When I say 95% I'm of course refering to absolute correct statistics, because its reeeeeeeeeally relevant for my point that I get the number correct!
"modifications made by ratDVD must be released back to the community"
And they are!!! I already pasted the link to the code earlier, it took me 15 seconds to find it on the RatDVD dude's homepage.
The changes made to this library has nothing to do with the source code Chris wants to get his hands at. Chris wants to know how to make a navigation filter for Windows Media Player, so he can display his menues on top of a video feed (i guess). Therefor Chris wants the RatDVD person to release this code, so Chris can learn how RatDVD does it instead of spending a couple of hours reading the API specification himself that happens to be freely available at
http://msdn.microsoft.com
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/...
Sure in RatDVD, this filter may be displaying information obtained by a COM server. You, the user, may chose to use the wrapped ibdvdnav.
You may also chose a completely different COM server that happens to be able to read the content of a DVD, you're free to choose.
By the time that people have wasted writing all these posts, we could probably have read enough at microsoft's site to write the damn filter from scratch. Had we just wanted to do the work ourselves.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 12. September 2005 @ 15:23
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Staff Member
2 product reviews
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12. September 2005 @ 17:21 |
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Obviously there isn't anything new being added to this discussion. I'm closing it now.
@Sokaku
If all you want to do is be insulting to people I recommend taking it somewhere else. It won't be tolerated here.
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