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Who wants to be a Master Drive?
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WDM2MPEG
Newbie
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8. September 2003 @ 13:09 |
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Here is a question that is worth attention of the advanced DVD-/+R(W) users. It seems to be a typical need of many people, and I was surprised to discover that it seems like the answer has never been published on this forum, at least I was searching for it several days, using Search command in various ways as well as manually looking through appropriate threads, and found nothing suitable.
DESCRIPTION OF A PROBLEM - generic case
Let's count how many Master Drives do we need on a computer for video capturing, editing, authoring and burning onto DVDs.
1. For successful burning, your DVD burner is to be a Master drive.
2. You have a hard drive containing your operating system and programs, and it wants to be a Master drive too, and prefers to be not a Secondary one. OK, you set up that hard drive as a Primary Master, and your DVD burner as a Secondary Master, and then both of them are happy (provided that your DMA mode is turned on and the drivers and firmware are correct, that is not an issue of this thread).
3. I am not the only one who needs DVD burner for authoring DVDs containing my own videos, produced with use of my camcorder and some typical video editing/DVD authoring software (e.g. Pinnacle Studio Deluxe, and you can name other software, it does not make a difference). It means not only transmission of MiniDV data from camcorder, but analog video capturing as well. Such a software requires a separate hard drive to be used as a buffer for you raw video (especially when you capture analog signal) and mostly for your mastered image as well, so you do not want it to share the same EIDE channel neither with your first hard drive, nor with the DVD burner. It seems to me that you need one more EIDE channel (e.g. from the additional ATA133 card, or from the RAID controller present on your motherboard, if you are the lucky one who has such a board). And it seems to me that this second hard drive will not agree to be anything less than a Master drive on that channel.
Question: does it really mean that you necessarily need at least three EIDE channels in your computer if you want to perform video capturing, editing, authoring and burning to DVDs?
MY PARTICULAR CASE
I do not like to use burner to read discs (they may be dusty, and the burner really burns that dust when it passes into the burner, so if your clothes were synthetic then it will be a drop of tar inside your burner, you will never remove it with any cleaning kit or solvent). And I do not like to use DVD burner to burn CDs, I prefer to use a dedicated CD burner for that purpose.
Without a second hard drive, I have a very nice configuration that satisfied me completely until I have bought a MiniDV camcorder and an analog capture card. The configuration was:
Primary Master: ATA133 hard drive Maxtor 160 GB 7200 rpm 8 MB
Primary Slave: Lite-On DVD drive
Secondary Master: TDK 420N DVD+R burner
Secondary Slave: Yamaha CD burner
What do the advanced users of DVD burners advise as the best way to connect the second HD, similar to my first one? I am ready to give up a CD burner or DVD drive, or I am ready to install an additional ATA133 card, or I am ready to use a motherboard with onboard RAID (unfortunately, ATA100 only - by the way, is it a problem for DVD burner to be connected as a Master on ATA100 instead of 133?), but what is the most correct way?
Thanks to everyone who responds, especially if you somehow prove your point.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 8. September 2003 @ 13:22
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Woody2k
Newbie
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8. September 2003 @ 13:48 |
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"What do the advanced users of DVD burners advise as the best way to connect the second HD, similar to my first one? I am ready to give up a CD burner or DVD drive, or I am ready to install an additional ATA133 card..."
Here is my own setup:
Primary M: ATA133 hard drive Seagate 60GB (OS & apps)
Primary S: ATA66 hard drive IBM 20GB (shadow backups only)
Secondary M: ATA100 hard drive Seagate 30GB (data only)
Secondary S: Sony DRU-510 DVD burner
RAID1/2: ATA100 Maxtor 20GBx2 RAID0 (video/rips)
USB1 (v1.1): Multi-card reader (CF/MW/SM/SD/MMC)
USB2 (v2.0): Plextor PX-4824 CD burner
Works fine with DV rips thru 1394; analog cap thru S-Video/Composite using ATI Radeon 9100 VIVO; and digicam i/o thru card readers. OS is Win XP SP1 (actually running on top of VMWare workstation, also has Linux & Win 98SE), file system NTFS v3.1; use Studio 8; rip DVD w/DVD Decrypter mainly. Can burn in either direction (w/proper media of course) w/o issues so far!
"... or I am ready to use a motherboard with onboard RAID (unfortunately, ATA100 only - by the way, is it a problem for DVD burner to be connected as a Master on ATA100 instead of 133?), but what is the most correct way?"
Yes only as far as recognition is concerned - onboard Promise RAID chips (ATA100/133) have issues with CDs attached as IDE3/4. With them, CDs must be in either IDE1/2. Transfer rate-wise, no issues AFAIK.
In your setup, you can try to the ff:
Primary Master: ATA133 hard drive Maxtor 160 GB 7200 rpm 8 MB
Primary Slave: TDK 420N DVD+R burner
Secondary Master: new HDD
Secondary Slave: Yamaha CD burner
Setup sw to use HD2 for rips/AV files/work files & CD/DVD image files used prior to burn. Burn to DVD from HD2 to DVD+R. For CDsm setup Nero(?) to stage images on HD1 and burn toward Yamaha. Con - no DVD to do your reading for rips - you have to use DVD+R to stage image to HD2 then burn. Best cas - add ATA133 RAID card and put HD2 on it as single drive initially unless you pony up for two new HDs also ($$$$).
Hope this helps.
Ad Astra per Aspera
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 8. September 2003 @ 13:50
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WDM2MPEG
Newbie
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8. September 2003 @ 17:15 |
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Thank you Woody2k,
Is it not a problem that the DVD burner will be not a Master anymore? I've read hundred times you ought to make it a Master or it never will be happy in its life. Your successful experience with Sony DVD burner as a slave sounds more like a unique amazing exception than as a rule, and that is why I especially appreciate if there be any substantiation beneath your advice besides your own success story, my primary goal was to hear common rules from people who are more experienced in DVD+/-R hardware than I am, rather than to learn their particular configurations or to hear some try-this-it-may-work-or-not with no explanatory ground beneath it.
Alas, your card reader and VIVO do not correspond to the situation with real analog capturing. VIVO is much less than a real full range capturing, like your pocket calculator is much less than your PC, and the card reader is not an example at all because it can wait as long as needed until the PC be ready to gulp another portion of data, while the analog video does not wait until you become ready to accept next portion of it, and the data flow is incomparably more intensive than the one from VIVO or from flash memory card.
Thank you for recommending one of possible configurations to me, but I hope to hear why do you think it is the best one. It is really not a problem for me to add an ATA133 card, or to use a motherboard with additional onboard RAID/ATA100 controller besides the ordinary onboard ATA133. I have these devices and it makes no difference for me if I use them. On the other side, having DVD burner as a slave seems to be suspicious (I agree it may be a wrong impression, but I would like to hear an expressly formulated common rule and to see a particular application of that rule to this case as a prove that this impression was wrong), and I am not happy that I cannot boot from CDs with use of any cheaper CD reading drive than TDK DVD+R burner, and I have no CD reader at all in the configuration recommended by you, with no explanation why do I have to suffer all these inconveniences. You see, it is really not easy for me to believe that having DVD burner as a slave is the best possible configuration, and this was actually what I was asking about. Once again, my question was not about one possible combination that I can try on my own risk to make a pile of coasters or not, my question was about the rules that are known to experienced DVD-R users.
So, please tell me the rules if you know them. I am not a newbie in PC hardware, you will not scare me with professional language. Missing explanations are much more scary for me.
By the way, what do you think of the following configuration:
Regular onboard ATA133:
PM: HD1 (Maxtor 160 GB 7200 rpm 8 MB - OS, apps and data storage)
PS: LiteOn DVD-ROM
SM: TDK 420+R DVD burner
SS: Yamaha CD burner
Onboard ATA100 RAID:
HD1+2: ATA133 Maxtor 60 GB + ATA133 Maxtor 40 GB = RAID 0 (cap/edit buffer).
Or, is one 60 GB connected to additional ATA133 card somehow better? How do you feel about it?
Thanks again and hope to hear from you (and from any other experienced DVD-R user) soon.
----------------
Hic Rodos, Hic Salta!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 8. September 2003 @ 18:32
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Woody2k
Newbie
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9. September 2003 @ 00:37 |
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1. "Is it not a problem that the DVD burner will be not a Master anymore?.."
Specific placement on an IDE channel is important for device enumeration, but the general IDE guidelines are just that, guidelines. In my case, the DRU-510 is slave only becasue the 30GB IBM HD is there as my online data backup (I just copy data to it when I'm too lazy to burn a data DVD; otherwise, I don't use it).
2. "...substantiation beneath your advice besides your own success story..."
Let's look at the data flows for specific scenarios. Remember, IDE i/o is queued for devices on the same chain (single-tasked), but the Windows can multi-task IDE devices on separate channels. This is rather long so the typos start here!
2.1 DVD/CD?playback:
PM (Primary Master HD) loads programs (PowerDVD) or Studio 8, but data streams from SS (Secondary Slave - DVD burner). Both device can multitask as they are on separate channels (IDE1 & IDE2).
2.2 DVD/CD Rip
PM loads app (DVD Decrypter or Studio 8), data ripped from SS and sent to RAID0 (also multitasked and with own processor, can write to channels IDE3 & 4 simultaneously). Again, no device contention, only one storage device active per channel. For CD, stream is from USB2 (also a block device).
2.3 Burn DVD/CD
PM loads app (DVD Decrypter/Nero or Studio 8), data read from RAID0 and sent to SS thru software buffer on PM (if used, DVD?Decrypter) then device buffer (8MB on DRU-510) then video stream to DVD media on SS burner.
2.4 DVD/CD Copy
For (data) DVD/CD copy, have to image disk to RAID0 then burn to SS from RAID0.
Just like in networking, we have separate "collision domains" for each device, and work the layout to maximize what each device is good at (OS can multitask, data flows are from devices in one channel to those in another) and minimize what each component is weak at (i.e RAID0 - multitask w/simultaneous writes; also simultaneous reads from two disks -> faster than DVD data rate, plus sw & large device buffer to boot). My success was not by accident but by design :-).
3. "Alas, your card reader and VIVO do not correspond to the situation with real analog capturing...does not wait until you become ready to accept next portion of it, and the data flow is incomparably more intensive than the one from VIVO or from flash memory card."
VIVO is even more a compromise and but is "real" analog capture. The Video-In Video-Out (VIVO) S-Video & composite ports are just integrated into the all-in-wonder type ATI Radeon 9100 card, rather than being on a standalone product. I have measured the transfer rates (OK, using a test Symmetrix/Clariion array and Control Center tools) and this setup is well within the 35-65% transfer rates possible on ATA100/133. I have the DVDs to prove they work!
As a shortcut, I normally convert my analog (VHS & Video 8) tapes to DV on the Handycam (Sony MiniDV) so as to have a DV input stream thru IEEE 1394 vudcap in Studio 8. This is how standalone boxes like the Canopus ADVC line do it.
The Card Reader is there for i/o completeness (Sony Memory Stick on the Handycam right?) and convenience as well (think Muvo and my CF "floppy replacement" drive).
4. "Setup sw to use HD2 for rips/AV files/work files & CD/DVD image files used prior to burn." - as in 2.2 above.
"Burn to DVD from HD2 to DVD+R. For CDsm setup Nero(?) to stage images on HD1 and burn toward Yamaha." - as in 2.3 above.
"Con - no DVD to do your reading for rips - you have to use DVD+R to stage image to HD2 then burn." - disadvantage.
I apologize for the abbreviated explanations, I am not a touch typist and it was late at night on this side of the world. I hope the above material help explain my design decisions.
BTW, your BIOS allowing, you can boot from the secondary CD in my setup example.
5."Regular onboard ATA133:
PM: HD1 (Maxtor 160 GB 7200 rpm 8 MB - OS, apps and data storage)
PS: LiteOn DVD-ROM
SM: TDK 420+R DVD burner
SS: Yamaha CD burner
Onboard ATA100 RAID:
HD1+2: ATA133 Maxtor 60 GB + ATA133 Maxtor 40 GB = RAID 0 (cap/edit buffer). "
5.1 This can work, disk-at-once will be from DVD-ROM to either burner (check you IDE driver though, some versions will downgrade your ATA133 HD1 to ATA33 of Liteon as they share same channel); rips to/from RAID0 to either burner is OK.
5.2 Try to use identical drives on a RAID0, else you lose the 20GB from the Maxtor 60GB (same drives ensure maximal striped performance; smaller disk will determine partitionable size).
6. There are no rules set in stone. There are other factors I believe are even more important.
6.1 Use NTFS - DVD rips will be larger than 4GB (file size limit with FAT32).
6.2 Tune stripe size if you can (third-party ATA100/133 add-in RAID card).
6.3 In Win 2k/XP, make kernel non-paged so it will always be in memory (i.e. most OS operations do not need to do a disk read). Prerequisite is have mucho RAm (512MB or more; I only had two DDR400 sticks so that is what I used; will get more when matched pair becomes available here in Tokyo).
6.4 I use a custom "AV" login profile that stops all unnecessary (for AV rip/burn) services in XP Pro; also rpioritizes disk cache over applications. But still lets me surf & stream MP3 from Muvo or CF while ripping/burning ;-).
6.5 Regularly defrag the NTFS RAID array and tweak XP in general.
You will find that device placement is maybe 5% of what end performance is all about. Other factors, some of which I mention above, esp. wrt software, will play a greater role. As you tune a component, the bottleneck will just move to another device/item in the chain of hw & sw involved in the AV rip/stage/burn process. The key is a balanced design. Hopefully, my setup can be a start for you to make your own informed choices.
Good Luck.
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WDM2MPEG
Newbie
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23. September 2003 @ 12:23 |
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Maybe it is time to start from scratch.
Hear hear, everyone who knows! Please reply!
1. WHAT ARE THE GUIDELINES for the correct assignment of Primary/Secondary Master/Slave roles to the disk drives, as well as about the quantity of the hard drives in the computer intended for video editing and DVD authoring/recording?
2. Can you back your vision of that guidelines with some explanation(s), please?
3. It seems to be a problem that people recommend to have at least two separate hard drives in the machine intended for video editing, occupying two separate IDE channels and tending both to be Master drives there, and besides you are mostly adviced to make your DVD burner a master drive too.
Any suggestions? Any practical experience? Be it positive or negative, your experience is valuable anyway. Thanks to everyone who responds.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 23. September 2003 @ 12:25
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AfterDawn Addict
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24. September 2003 @ 05:18 |
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hi
heres mine!
Primary master = Pioneer dvr106D
Primary slave = empty!
Secondary master = Liteon 52/24/52
Secondary slave = Samsung cd/dvd 48x/16x
Serial-1 ata150 = 80gig \
....................................|<---Raid mirror one drive in effect!
Serial-2 ata150 = 80gig /
thx - problem solved!
Nothing here to see, move along folks.
 This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 24. September 2003 @ 05:21
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koola
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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24. September 2003 @ 05:20 |
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This is my rig:
Primary M: ATA 150 Seagate 120GB (OS/Backups)
Primary S: ATA 150 Seagate 120GB (DVD/Video rips)
Secondary M: Optorite DVD Burner
Secondary S: Liteon DVD rom
With this setup, I have had noe problems. I have even had the Optorite as a Secondary S with no probs, so just stick it where it works!
As for specific placement of IDE components, thats Bull Sh!T. Just make sure that all the important driver files are in place and win/linux will not complain.
PS: Treat your computer like you would treat a woman (BDSM users excluded)
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AfterDawn Addict
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24. September 2003 @ 05:23 |
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hi
sounds good stick it where it works!
no reference to any ladies present!
Thx..
Nothing here to see, move along folks.
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WDM2MPEG
Newbie
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24. September 2003 @ 06:27 |
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The guidelines do exist, and I would appreciate if they appear here. Just telling that they are a bullsh!t without specifying the guidelines themselves is not an answer to my question. The recommendation to have DMA mode turned on and all the drivers being correct and in place - is already a guideline. Any others?
Woody2k has briefly mentioned some guidelines, but you have to be a real digger because he was too brief. Anyway, by now, the reply from Woody2k remains the best, and I hope he will come back to tell details and to expand some of his abbreviated tips. I appreciate and share his approach of analyzing the data flows on IDE channels, as well as his understanding that some drivers can slowdown the faster device to the data transfer rate of the slower one sharing the same IDE channel, and the fix is to use an appropriate driver rather than to change the drives' IDE placement. This sounds like guidelines too.
By the way, have you guys noticed two curious things:
- most of people who say that the IDE placement is of no importance, and IDE guidelines are almost a bullsh!t (without bothering to specify them), still have their burners set up as Master drives. Among the people who have shown their configurations here, only Woody2k has his burner as a Slave;
- if you apply Woody2k data flow analytic approach to Koola's configuration, there is a definite bottleneck when you use video edit buffer hard drive sharing the same IDE channel where the OS/app hard drive resides, and it seems like Koola is not complaining about his configuration. Miracle?
P.S. "Treat your computer like a woman..." I will never BUY a computer any more, I will kiss the cute one that I see in retail store until it agrees to be mine :-)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 24. September 2003 @ 07:57
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Woody2k
Newbie
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5. October 2003 @ 22:07 |
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1. I apologize for the late reply. I didn't notice there was a new post addresssed to em, and I've been away (from work & computers) on an extended vacation (scuba diving!).
Let's look at the "origin" of this "rule" that a burner has to be a master drive. Ever since ATA-5 (aka UDMA/33) disks, or even before I venture, it has been part of lore that the burner has to be M & other devices S. Why?
The IDE ATA-5 spec states that from ATA-5, each M & S communicate using Pin 39 w/c supplies a sinal to M device, while on the S cable postion, there is no Pin 39 so failing to receive said signal, device auto-configures as S (basis for CS or Cable Select). The operation is the same for jumpered drives.
What then is the fundamental difference that cable position imposes? This has to do w/DA/SP (Drive Active/Slave Present). In this state, a S decie talks to the M device, w/x if not communicating with the IDE controller, then allows S to communicate w/IDE controller. As long as PCI bus arbitration does not change (i.e. M sends interrupt to say it needs to talk to IDE) then data streams to S for as long as needed.
So in my setup, the Secondary Master (SM) is (now) Linux disk that is hidden from Win XP but is UDMA Mode 4 device while Secondary Slave (SS) is DRU-510A. So as not to slow down hdd request (needed to reset comms as DRU-510 os UDMA Mode-4), I set it to SS.
But as I have stated, data flows still mean that the SM does not impact traffic to SS except on start of data transfer (due to need for SS to ask SM to use IDE); the initial data transfer as I have shown is buffered (first to RAM onboard DRU-510 then disk on Primary M/RAID0).
So this so called "rule" when viewed from this perspective can help guide you in setup. But if you are familiar with IDE electronics, the details of comms & error-checks and data flow, then you will understand why I did it this way.
2. Also, each IDE channels is single-tasking. The rationale to use two channels os to allow the hw to multi-task the two, as I stated earlier). Thus, my data flows for a pecific task always try to take advantage of this fact.
3. Sharing the OS and A/V data channel may not be a bottleneck IFF OS and burning app load into available memory (Win XP footprint is 128MB; w/256MB shd fit into available memory w/o need for disk swap or if swap file is on same disk as data being streamed) and data streaming ia allowed by PM (as seems to be the case w/Koola). That config will slow down if disk swapping happens, but if swap file is on same disk as data, then even swapping will not thrash the disk & cause slowdown.
I hope this helps clarify some of the queries raised.
Good Luck!
Woody2k
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WDM2MPEG
Newbie
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6. October 2003 @ 06:11 |
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Thank you Woody2k,
1. Some people suppose that if two drives with non-equal ATA speeds (e.g. UDMA33 and UDMA100) share the same IDE channel then the faster drive will experience slowdown to the data transfer rate of its slower neighbour (e.g. both drives in my example will work at UDMA33), but some other people say it only depends on the drivers and firmware, so it may be possible, e.g., to have UDMA33 drive and UDMA100 drive sharing one IDE channel and UDMA100 drive will be working fine at its native data transfer rate, not reduced due to presence of UDMA33 neighbour on the same IDE channel. Which of these two points is right, and why?
2. Can you please desipher your abbreviations such as "w/c", "w/x", "data streaming is allowed by PM" (does PM stand for Primary Master, or something different? Koola's configuration had a burner on Secondary IDE channel, so the Primary can apply to your considerations about the swap file and the image to be burned, is it what you meant?), and some abbreviations from your earlier postings (e.g. "CDsm" and others).
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Woody2k
Newbie
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8. October 2003 @ 00:21 |
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Quote:
1. ...two drives with non-equal ATA speeds (e.g. UDMA33 and UDMA100) share the same IDE channel then the faster drive will experience slowdown to the data transfer rate of its slower neighbour (e.g. both drives in my example will work at UDMA33)...and why?
No longer true. This was prevalent when UDMA & PIO devices were intermixed, but modern controllers (ATA-5) & drivers (WinXP default M$ IDE driver) can intelligently deliver data at the speed of each device.
2. I have edited for clarity:
What then is the fundamental difference that cable position imposes? This has to do with DA/SP (Drive Active/Slave Present). In this state, a Slave that needs to send data talks to the Master device, which if not communicating with the IDE controller, then allows Slave to pass thru to the IDE controller. As long as PCI bus arbitration does not change (i.e. Master sends interrupt to say it needs to talk to IDE controller) then data streams to Slave for as long as needed (as the bus-master).
So in my setup, the Secondary Master (SM) is (now) a Linux disk that is hidden from Win XP and is UDMA Mode-4 device, while Secondary Slave (SS) is DRU-510A. So as not to slow down hdd request (needed to reset comms as DRU-510 is UDMA Mode-2), I set it to SS. Linux drivers are not yet as well developed is the second reason I did this.
But as I have stated, data flows still mean that the SM does not impact traffic to SS except on start of data transfer (SS needs to ask SM to use IDE); on go-ahead, the initial data transfer as I have shown is buffered (first to RAM onboard DRU-510) then to disk on Primary M/RAID0) in my own setup...
2. Also, each IDE channel is by itself single-tasking. The rationale to use two channels is to allow the os to multi-task the two (as I stated earlier). Thus, my data flows for a specific task always try to take advantage of this fact.
Your question:
Quote:
Koola's configuration had a burner on Secondary IDE channel, so the Primary can apply to your considerations about the swap file and the image to be burned, is it what you meant?
In Koolas case, he is running Serial ATA (150mbps):
Quote:
Primary M: ATA 150 Seagate 120GB (OS/Backups)
Primary S: ATA 150 Seagate 120GB (DVD/Video rips)
Both devices are actually masters as far as the disk controller is concerned (they are only master /slave as far as the OS and drive lettering are concerned). Ergo, no contention, a design point in SATA to get rid of this issue.
Sorry, am not a touch typist, other abbreviations are typos, just check their context!
Woody2k
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