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This is gonna KILL SACD.
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Senior Member
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24. January 2004 @ 08:24 |
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Announcing BRONZE - The $99 DVD-Audio Tool
For the first time, consumers can easily write their own high-resolution DVD-A?s for under $100.
Minnetonka Audio Software is proud to announce the release of discWelder? BRONZE, a basic DVD-Audio authoring program that allows consumers and prosumers to deliver surround and high-resolution audio on DVD-Recordable media, at the unprecedented price of $99. With discWelder BRONZE, the user can import all Linear PCM formats supported in the DVD-Audio specification, including surround (up to 6 channels of 24-bit, 48kHz audio) and high-resolution stereo (two channels of 24-bit, 192kHz audio). Surround and stereo tracks may be used on the same disc, in WAV or AIFF file format, and discWelder-burned media will play on any DVD-A player that supports DVD±R/W. The Windows-based program is brilliantly simple to use, and can burn DVD-Audio discs utilizing inexpensive DVD±R/W drives.
Minnetonka?s discWelder BRONZE offers hi-res DVD-Audio disc writing at a category-defining price, and will be shipping in March 2004.
discWelder BRONZE Features:
· Supports Linear PCM formats: 16- and 24-bit depth; 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192kHz sample rates (Stereo); 44.1, 48kHz (5.1 Surround); WAV or AIFF files
· Supports Intermixed Surround and Stereo (PCM only) Tracks
· Multiple DVD±R/W Burner Support
· 1 Group with up to 99 Tracks
· Drag-and Drop or Double-Click Soundfile Placement
· Downmix Properties Preset to Industry Standards
System Requirements ? Windows 98/2000/NT/XP with 10 GB free hard disc space and supported DVD±R/W drive.
What more is there to add?
Okay - it is not full spec DVD-Audio, not by a long way. You only get a single group as opposed to 9.
There is no MLP support.
BUT - you do get surround at up to 24/48, and stereo right up to 24/192 and everywhere inbetween, and all for $99.
SACD is looking more and more like an "also ran" as this will bring a form of DVD-Audio authoring within reach of every PC user at a price everyone can afford.
And that, my friends, is what will make DVDA the long term good bet, as once home users experience it there will be no turning back.
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A_Klingon
Moderator
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24. January 2004 @ 14:54 |
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Definately a step in the right direction, YES !
(But you know.....), ever the pessimist, I simply wonder if Minnetonka didn't come to the realization that if they hadn't brought the price down to realistic consumer levels, someone else would have?
Still, $100 is awesome at this stage. Most consumers don't author independent live music, they copy or 'backup' that which they already have, or can find elsewhere. And with current Hi-Res DRM measures present on just about every Hi-Res recording (and playback machine) made today, it's going to be difficult to find hi-res and/or surround material to author.
High quality audiophile recordings (on vinyl) will be a notable exception. In fact, just about *any* vinyl recording will benefit from hi-bit-rate encoding! Backing up irreplaceable analogue vinyl recordings to (say) 192/24 will be an wonderful achievement.
Minnetonka has taken the first step to provide quality, affordable authoring software -- now we need the other "Big Two" things:
(a) In the still-as-yet absence of very many widespread commercial (uncrippled) hi-res music discs, an uncrippled commercial source for same, and ...
(b) Quality, analogue-encoding software to allow our vinyl recordings to sound better than they ever have since our audiophile-grade turntables, and in the interim, give us something TO author with Minnetonka's Bronze, while we wait for the Big Labels to unlock their vaults.
Put those three critical elements together, and oh yeah, SACD will be in deep s---. :-)
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Senior Member
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25. January 2004 @ 04:23 |
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Any recording done at high res will benefit from the increased bit depth & sample rate. The processing will be done at the higher rates, so shifting any errors (probably) into the ultrasonic bands, so even if you then drop down to 24/48 the quality will be superior to 16/44.1 or even the original vinyl. Remember that vinyl wears out, so using the DVDA restoration will ensure the survival of the record. Personally, I've been haunting local record fairs ever since I got DVDA purely to replace a lot of old material that will never be re released, especially in the DVDA format.
A large home user uptake will ensure the dominance of DVDA, as more people will be able to create their own content, rather than waiting around for the record companies.
As for not being able to extract surround, DVD-Audio ripper does a fine job of turning AC3 into WAV direct from the DVD. It is badly named though - it really should be called "Audio on DVD-Video ripper" as it only rips from DVDV and not DVDA.
The only thing about Bronze is it is seriously hobbled, but that will be good for me, as more people will begin to understand the format and I can still do things the $100 customers will never be able to do, such as CPPM flags for the labels, and MLP encoding too.
Remember also that DVDA has not, so far, been cracked either. You cannot digitally extract an AOB back to it's components, and if the track is in MLP form then even if you could you'd not be able to do anything with it as no wave editors understand MLP either!
Factor in CPPM which is also uncracked to date, and we have a format that Home users can create their own content with, and record labels can use in safety.
Oh, did you notice that DVDA/CD is about to become a reality, probably within 30 days? Roll on the blanks for that one too.
Must dash, finally coming to the end of that big DVD project.
AND - I now know how to author the hybrids - DVDA & DVDV on the same disc. It's only taken a year, and believe me nobody will tell how it is done. We had to work it out for ourselves!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 25. January 2004 @ 04:25
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A_Klingon
Moderator
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25. January 2004 @ 08:33 |
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"We had to work it out for ourselves."
<heh-heh> Of course. The big Labels are paranoid Wilkes, and won't tell you (or anyone) squat. There's a fortune at stake. They still own all the publishing rights to the musician's music they stole from years ago.
For me, on a consumer level, my greatest, most preferred use of the wonderful DVDA system would, at this stage, not be to cobble together yet another massive, expensive music library of expensive new remasters (Doobie Brothers; Alice Cooper; Pink Floyd... @ $40-a-pop), but rather, to be able to transcribe priceless vinyl recording to the new format.
Right now there are something like 250 - 300 LPs stacked in my living room, kindly loaned to me from a friend. Many of these are screaming for the high res treatment.
I've been putting off transcription tho, as now, I am seriously considering (once again) the acquistion of a decent, quality turntable that will do them justice. Much of this vinyl will never see the light of day again as commecial releases. I don't blame you for haunting the local used-record shops - we have one here in Halifax (TAZ Records) that would make you drool. :)
On another note, I'm rather disappointed that the venerable Mobile Fidelity Sounds Labs empire - traditionally a force to be reckoned with - have chosen to walk the perilous SACD path. What a Sin !!!
I have often been *floored* by the sheer care that has been taken by these people in providing vastly superior recordings of major-label releases that the Big Labels themselves never took with their own in-house processing. Whether they were gold-cds, half-speed mastered LPs, or whatever, it was obvious to me that MFSL *knew* exactly what they were doing.
But since having been bought-out by (whatever interest it was that has bought them out), we're now looking at a crippled company. I don't know if audiophiles will ever be able to hold MFSL up to quite the same light as they did before. It's a tragedy! They have been diluted. To me, they are now just a name "that used to be". Damn.
I notice too, that the local Canadian audio magazine "Ultra-High Fidelity" still rigourously promotes SACD in the "Audiophile Store" section of their Website. DVDA titles are occassionaly offered, but only as a sort-of "afterthought" it seems. (Remember, these are the same people whose publisher confidently proclaimed that the 'war' was over, and that DVDA was the Betamax of the audio world now, and SACD was the new VHS). I have NO idea of what forces are at work there.
For sure, my curiosity regarding the new hybrid DVDA/CD releases is piqued !! :) It's about time! I will splurge on a title or two (especially since I can play both layers) if and when I see something interesting in the local stores.
Thank you kindly for the updates, Wilkes. -- Klingy --
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 25. January 2004 @ 08:43
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Prisoner
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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25. January 2004 @ 17:52 |
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I have never picked up a copy of Ultra-High Fidelity here in Toronto. But I am curious now to count the number of Sony ads, there just might be a correlation. Funny that Sony was Betamax and now it is SACD (the new VHS).
To be honest I don't know if this software will be the final blow. Not that many people make there own music, sure lots of home movies going around, but music is not every ones game. IF you really want to sell this to the average American, you do what wilkes just fiqured out. Tell everyone that they can create Surround professional sound effects for there home movies and productions with a software package. Be able to get grandma's 90 b-Day in full surround, with crystal clear DVD quality. Then you may have a wide spread DV market.
I am not a number
I am a Free Man
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A_Klingon
Moderator
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25. January 2004 @ 21:35 |
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Hi Prisoner.
I doubt very much if Mr. Average Joe music lover cares a hoot about creating their own surround-sound mixes for GrandMum's 90th birthday, or the kid's Christmas Party, or the family's trip to the beach, or ..... In fact, I doubt they would bother to create separate sound tracks, mix them, author them, or would even know HOW to, or for that matter, even have 5.1 surround systems in their homes.
When most people are creating home movies, stereo (or even clear monaural) is usually ultra-sufficient. Just making a crisp, clear video of the event is 98% of the battle. This function (surround sound home movies) will, IMO, be the _least_ used one with the 'new' DVDA crowd. Unless they're dubbing in music and/or sound effects afterwards, how many people are going to have multiple microphones for capturing multi-channel sound at the local, fast-paced racing-car event, or bumping shoulder-to-shoulder with people at the local circus? (And who among the average public would have the necessary equipment or expertise, or *ability* (or desire) to create such soundtracks ???) It's all most folks can do to _hold_ a camcorder steadily and get a useable picture in the viewfinder.
No.......surround-sound's clear domain is in music.
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Senior Member
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26. January 2004 @ 00:01 |
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As an aside, it is amusing to hear DVDA referred to as "the new betamax". I assume it is meant to be a comment on the fact that betamax "lost" it's battle.
A shot in the foot, methinks, for SACD people to use this comparison, as everyone knows that despite losing the consumer battle, Betamax was far better quality wise.
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A_Klingon
Moderator
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26. January 2004 @ 00:53 |
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To cloud the already-murky waters even more, I believe that much of the technology that went into VHS originated from Sony. (Don't try to figure it out; I can't). 
We'll know we've "arrived" when Sony starts releasing major-artist back-catalogue titles on DVDA.
(Will it happen in _this_ lifetime?)
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Prisoner
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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26. January 2004 @ 07:01 |
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I never said the aveage person will make surround sound videos of Grandma. I was saying that if you tell them they can and this model is only X more but you can do 10 more extra things. I fliping around on tv and saw the shoping network selling a pocket size digital camera and the selling feature was that it was a Webcam, camcorder, camera, and record your voice. I bet a lot of people bought this and will never use any of the features as the quality for sure will suck, and none of them will know how to conect it to a computer. But if you market it that way, then people will buy. And all you really need in the market place is sales, who really cares if anyone uses it.
I am not a number
I am a Free Man
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A_Klingon
Moderator
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26. January 2004 @ 08:08 |
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Well, since I already have a DVDAudio player, if (and only IF) a _new_ DVD-A player will shine my shoes; make donuts with a special attachment; slice & dice tomatoes; perk my coffee and pull-in 5 extra cable channels, will I consider purchasing it.
(I'm just *pulli' yer leg*, Prisoner !!) :-)
(In truth)..... the prices of DVDA players has already come down to *most* satisfying levels - we just need to see a lot more genuine, major DVDA titles (at realistic price levels) to get the ball rolling. If, as Wilkes suggests, we could be seeing hybrid CD/DVDA discs in the stores within, say, a month's time (oh, ye are a brave, optimistic one, Wilkes), that's going to make a HUGE difference in the perception of both value and format-acceptance!!
Despite the fact that many (most?) SACDs are already hybrids, the format hasn't taken over the world yet, suggesting either: (a)the SACD propaganda machine is not working as well as the promoters of SACD would like; (b) people aren't as dumb as the promoters would like; (c) people aren't overly thrilled with the sound reproduction promises that the promoters have made; or some combination thereof.
At least Warner Brothers is attempting to garner some needed public feedback through returnable, postage-paid, card-insert questionaires included with their DVDA titles. The questions are interesting and all contain checkboxes for you to select:
* How did you learn about DVD-Audio?
* How many DVD-Audio discs have you purchased?
* How many other DVD-Audio discs are you likely to purchase in the next six months?
* What kind of audio hardware do you have on your primary system used to play DVD-Audio?
* Is the system hooked up to a television to view the visual content included on the DVD-Audio?
* How satisfied are you with each of the following aspects of this DVD-Audio?:
>> Music Sound Quality
>> Ease Of Use
>> Picture/photo Gallery
>> Video
>> Lyrics
>> Discography/Commentary
>> Features Listed On Package
>> Value For The Price
>> Overall Satisfaction
* Are you male or female?
* What is your age?
(These were only some of the questions). So it would appear, at least, that Warner Brothers is interested in feedback from it's potential customers and will (presumably) listen to their requests. No such questionnaire came with the SACD I purchased.
DVDA titles _still_ cost about $40 each here in Halifax, for albums that were originally well under 45 minutes in length. Still too expensive for me to consider replacing an entire Record Library with. (Many of my favourite album titles will never make it DVDA *anyway*), but IF I can find a DVDA player that will also steam-press my trousers; pop my popcorn & include a plug-in hose to vacuum up the crumbs afterwards.......
I'm just *joking* Prisoner !!!
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Prisoner
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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26. January 2004 @ 09:42 |
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To be honest, I can`t see either SACD or DVD-A making a killing on the market. Sure audiophiles will eventually settle on one, but the mass public now is thrilled about Mp3 and downloading music. I know more people now considering buying Mp3 players and iPod`s that don`t even listen to that much music. but they are willing to sign up for cheap songs ordering over the internet. To buy only the one good song off an Iron madien album, rather than buying the whole disc, is the direction that they are heading. So now with the mp3 machine in motion, I can`t see people willing to go back to the old day`s of more than $20 a disc. IF and only if the protection thing is fiqured out or just ignored, and internet sales of SACD or DVD-A is allowable. Then you will get the mass back with buying software to burn the DVD, the player to play them off a hard disc or disc ete ete.
I would love a DVD multi player that could vacum up crumbs, good idea. HeeHee :P
I am not a number
I am a Free Man
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Senior Member
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26. January 2004 @ 10:29 |
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Software players are already here. WinDVD5 has a DVD-Audio addon, and cheap authoring is coming too. discWelder Bronze for $99.
There are a lot of DVDA/SACD online too - it's the only place I can get them, as the local record shop thinks DVD-Audio means the DVD-Video music discs!!!
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A_Klingon
Moderator
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27. January 2004 @ 02:52 |
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Prisoner ... you are right. The mass Joe Publics have never been "Audiophiles", and for many, MP3 IS the way to go. But I betya, that if they had an opportunity to hear a truly decent audio system (even 2-channel stereo), they would not be able to help notice the profound difference it can make in the reproduction of music, especially when sourced with DVDA or a decent turntable.
The audiophile market has always, traditionally, been extremely small compared to everything else that's out there. I'm just happy that the (relative) few of us who are left, are still discussing these matters and pushing for the best.
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Prisoner
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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28. January 2004 @ 06:21 |
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Wilkes, that was my exact comment why I don't think DVD-A will make it big. Too many people think it a DVD (regardless of whats after that title) equals Video. I did find it funny that the local Sunrise here buts DVD-A directly after DVD-V but SACD, have there own section or are sumtimes intermixed with the audio CD's. But with that said I went to HMV on Younge and Dundas, a Store clerk didn't know what a SACD was. Even though the did sell them! So I think it is still very early in this technology. I don't think I can call a winner yet in this war.
A_Klingon, I do agree that the sound is much better. And some will most likely switch to the good quality of either SACD or DVD-A. However with MP3s taking over the minds and advertising space of the general world, it will take a lot of time to get through.
Funny I was talki to someone about SACD/DVD-A and they wanted to know how to convert it to Mp3 to play on there portable player. They lost the point.
I am not a number
I am a Free Man
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A_Klingon
Moderator
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28. January 2004 @ 12:59 |
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As an offnote, there *is* a valid place for mp3 files - from whatever source, even hi-res - namely, walkmans. (Or should I call them "Jogmans"?)
I'm an old fart now, so I'm not much into the 'jogging' thing, nor do I take a lot of busses (public transport), but what the hell? If I'm going to have to spend $40 each for a dvda or sacd, (which is what they currently cost around here), I may as well try to get the best value out of it on the road or whatever.
But no - I'm under no illusions - mp3 and dvda are different animals from different planets.
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robmill
Junior Member
1 product review
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28. January 2004 @ 13:52 |
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Hummm,
I find this thread rather interesting, I am an audiophile, and have both SACD and DVD-A. I do have a high end home theater, which I listen to all of my music in.
There seems to be a lot of SACD bashing going on, I really can't tell that much of a difference, and to be honest with you I find some of the digital re-authoring of "albums" into surround formats rather poorly done (this is a statement about the recording engineers ability more than anything).
Now with that said heres my review of the format:
Pros:
SACD
Hybrid Discs
In my area they are at least 3 to 5 dollars cheaper
than DVD-As i.e. same as a normal CD.
Hi Def transfers of original Masters in Stereo
Hi Def re-engineering into Surround (also CON)
Ability to play without the use of a monitor (big one
for me)
Sony Megachangers now support SACD
Sounds Great
CDDB Compatible because of Hybrids
DVD-A
Hi Def Re-engineering into Surround
Sounds Great
Video Content (also CON)
CONS:
SACD
Hi Def Re-engineering into Surround
No Video Content (I listed this, but I really don't
care about it, and knew someone would comment on
it)
DVD Audio
Hi Def Re-engineering into Surround
Mostly requires monitor to just play the music.
Cost more than SACDs
I'm not passing judgement on either format, if a title is not in SACD and in DVD-A I buy the DVD-A format and visa versa. Its more of a "Content" issue for me, except for one DVD-Audio issue I have.
That being the need to play a DVD-A disc almost always requires a monitor to play it. What a pain.
My main complaint about the industry is the in-ability to make a standard. And once they issue dueling formats they turn around and start issuing Duel Disc Players,,,,,,"they went thataway"
Again, I'm not bad mouthing either format, they both have there merits and their problems. I do think SACD has a small edge in operabilty and ease of use. But I am a techno nurd, so.
Robert
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Senior Member
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29. January 2004 @ 00:12 |
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Not sure where you get the idea that DVDA needs a monitor to play it. One of the principal points when the format specs were written was the need for navigation to be easy to use, as well as considering the use of Audio-only players, such as found in cars etc.
It is by no means necessary to use a monitor to play these discs - you are actually talking about DVD-Audio, not Audio on DVD-Video, right?
If you are, then I apologise but it seems to me there is confusion here.
I author DVDA for a living, and always author in an autoplay function.
Also, on my player, SACD is in 3 layers:Stereo, surround & CD. your player needs to be able to navigate these sections with ease, and it is no more complex or easy than real DVDA.
As far as the "SACD bashing" goes, my problems with the format are well known, but to summarize - have you ever seen the problems in the ultrasonic range??
Also, Sony seem to want to put people like me out of business, as it is just not possible to author these ion a medium size studio, plus all SACD discs started life as PCM format, as you cannot mix a record in DSD.
So given that, where is the so called advantage in using DSD? Also, most universal SACD players convert back to PCM for playback. Again, this kills the alleged advantage in DSD. I could go on, but this is not the thread for that. Do a web search on this. you will find a lot of people with some very serious objections to SACD/DSD.
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robmill
Junior Member
1 product review
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29. January 2004 @ 00:48 |
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I see your points and agree with them to a point. I retested my DVD-A after I received this update, and apparently it must be the function of the player more than the medium.
I appoligize for the comments on that, but with that said,,,,,,
With that said, I feel that both formats will probably stay in the relm of the audiophile, at least until mass market units are released, but then that hurts the sound quality of both.
Robert
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robmill
Junior Member
1 product review
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29. January 2004 @ 01:03 |
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One more comment.
After my post, I also note that your a vendor specializing in many audio formats, one being DVD-A.
And therefore, I see even more where you are coming from, and the Sony Statements in your replys are that of a Competitor in a similar market, and in my opinion has a biased position.
Sorry,,,,I like both and will use the one that wins the format war which probably not even happen because of the audiophile aspects of the formats.
Robert
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Senior Member
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29. January 2004 @ 05:11 |
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Naturally you should go with the format you prefer - I was only giving my opinion.
BTW - I am definitely not a vendor, much less a competitor to Sony!
I am part of a mixing/Mastering studio, and we have been working in DVD-A for 12 months with absolutely no problems.
My main problems with SACD is the noise component in the Ultrasonic range, and the simple, undeniable fact that around 90-95% of SACD/DSD is a conversion from PCM. To my mind, converting from PCM sort of defeats the alleged benefits of SACD. It is not a "pure DSD" signal path. It starts life as PCM, is mixed as PCM, and is converted to DSD after mastering. Why is this? because editing & mixing in DSD is primitive, to put it mildly. You cannot mix DSD, you can do very basic EQ, and it is not available to anyone except those who want to farm their masters out without being able to check the work. SACD/DSD cannot be authored at all outside of the replicators.
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A_Klingon
Moderator
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29. January 2004 @ 05:50 |
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Hi Robmill ! Welcome to the discussion!
I would wisely pay heed to your comments, because you appear to have the kind of playback system that most folks would *love* to have, and it gives you an opportunity to make value judgement that I, alas, cannot make with my very simple at-home 2-channel system.
Having said that, I've chatted with Wilkes at length in here about the two formats. Although he IS a sound engineer who authors/masters in DVDA, I find him in NO way to be biased. He strikes me as the kind of fellow who *would* admit to any SACD superiority if he felt that superiority existed. I would expect nothing less from him.
Universal DVDA/SACD players haven't come down yet (quite) to the commodity-level - with all of the degradation of sound quality which that implies -, but at least on my own Player, a Pioneer DV-563A, I can hear the difference beween the two formats very clearly. I don't think dvda sounds better because someone *told* me it should, or because some web page panned SACD in general, but simply because - to my own ears - there is "no contest".
True, I have a very limited number of titles with which to compare. At $40 per title on my budget, that's not likely to change much. What we *really* need to see, is the exact _same title_ in both formats to make an intelligent determination. And that's *never* going to happen because the powers-that-be (the international record-label conglomerates) have already chosen their 'sides' and are going to steadfastly adhere to them fanatically.
The finest thing I ever heard on an optical medium was the "Doobie Brothers-Captain And Me" on DVDA. This is the closest in sound quality I've ever come to a high-end audiophile-grade turntable. My audio memory has faded over the years, so I may actually be hearing something even *better* on this disc than I did before. Certainly, at 192/24, the sound reproduction on this disc is simply stunning.
In contrast, the highly-touted Pink Floyd's 'Dark Side Of The Moon' SACD left me wondering what all the hubbub was about. I was not nearly as thrilled as all the reviewers insisted I should be.
In truth, regardless of the format, if lousy mastering is done at the source, there is very little one can do about it on the receiving end. "Garbage in-garbage out" as they say. And I've read some pretty crummy independent reviews and comments via Forum Boards (not commercial websites who would have a vested interest in supporting one format or another) in regards to, say, the Creedence Clearwater Revival catalog of albums. (Among many others).
People were *appalled* at the lack of musicality in these SACDS deeming them not one whit better, and often inferior, to their red-book counterparts.
Sony developed a proprietary system (DSD) because that is something they are known to do in their attempt to thwart the competition. 'Proprietary' and 'Superiority' are not always mutually compatible terms. LPCM is a tried-and-proven technology, but to me DSD (SACD) is a very grey area I don't understand very well. (Maybe that's the way Sony designed it to be).
Anyway, those are my observations as I see (hear?)them. We, as "audiophiles" are a relative miniscule market in the overall scheme of things - there are lots more bucks to be made in other areas - notably DVD-V, so it will be interesting to see how all of this eventually pans out for the music lover.
Thanks for your input !!!! -- Mike --
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robmill
Junior Member
1 product review
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29. January 2004 @ 13:18 |
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Wilkes,
Sorry about the comment, I just assummed you were a vendor.
A Klingon,
Thanks for the comments, you should check out Elton Johns Goodbye Yellow Brick Road SACD, it is impressive. The DVDA I really enjoy is the Metallicas Self Titled Black DVDA. "Enter Sandman" is amazing.
Mike Oldfields Tubular Bells SACD is also worth checking out.
As to Pink Floyds Dark Side of the Moon is ok. I still listen to LPs and find my High DEF LP version sounds better.
I guess it all comes down to who is remastering the music. That brings me around to a comment on my original post.
Let me re-phrase it a little better.
1. Just because something is re-released in either format DVD-A or SACD, does not mean that its worth re-releasing.
2. Re-mastering into Surround can really distroy the original "concept" of the music.
If you have a conceptually perfect Stereo image as created by the artist and his engineer, how can an engineer 5 10 15 20 years after the music was released really justify re-mastering the content into surround sound without the assistance of the artist. I know it will be done and has been, and hopefully the engineer has a similar "FEEL" for what the artist wanted to do.
Now however, with new music the artists has the oppertunity to record in surround and can experiment like say The Beatles did with their ground breaking recordings in Stereo.
I find your comment about "Only Having a 2 channel system" rather funny. Yes, I have a hi end surround sound system, I can simulate 7 channel stereo have multiple 5 channel inputs,,,da da da da da da da,,,,, I drive my 23 year old nephew nuts,,,,,when I typically listen to this system in Stereo Mode. There is NOTHING WRONG with "Only Having a 2 channel system"
One thing I would like to see the record companies do on DVDA is to release old releases in Native Stereo format and leave the original content alone.
Sorry to be long winded.
Robert
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Senior Member
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30. January 2004 @ 01:55 |
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Couldn't agree more about the Stereo option.
The only way anything should be done in surround is from a remix of the original multitracks. Creating a 5.1 from a stereo master is, to my mind, an abomination!
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sound_lab
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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21. February 2004 @ 22:28 |
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The idea of recording in the DVD-A format even without MLP or Full res surround is great. I don't own a DVD-A player, but I'd like to mix in surround or high res stereo on the cheap.
As for SACD being an 'also ran' that should be like a 'never ran' in the case of PC use. Why would anyone in their right mind create anything SACD PC related with all the MP3 mess going on right now? I wouldn't, can't blame anybody for not making cheap tools for SACD/PC. This tool can't kill something that doesn't exist.
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Allow me to go off-topic a bit
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As for not being able to mix DSD, that's true, but technology eventually solves everything. At the moment Merging Technologies has made it possible on their latest gear to mix PCM at 32 bits with a sampling freq of 352kHz well beyond DVD-A, those tracks are later converted to DSD. Yeah it defeats the purpose, but time will tell, SACD is still young. I'll make an early prediction that the availabilty of such tools will help DVD-A blossom in the indie market, while the big dollar labels continue to either push SACD or come onboard if they already haven't. The number of SACD titles Vs DVD-A titles seems to tell me that, if someone has numbers to tell me otherwise, I'm SURE they will.
As for ultra sonic noise, not all speakers are even capable of reproducing that noise, ditto for the amps and pre-amps. So far it hasn't been an issue. It's all about the quality of sound in the audible range for both fomats. Both formats hype the freq response too much anyway. The tweets on my speakers can reach out to 23kHz, at least 3-5 Khz beyond what I can reliably hear. My SACD player cuts off everything above 50Khz, and what's in between that hasn't hurt my enjoyment a bit.
I also find it puzzling that wilkes? makes statements about the future of DVD-A. What future? I'm no DVD-A hater, but regardless of what some see as strengths of DVD-A and weaknesses of SACD, think about this.
Every magazine I read, every online article I read, people that actually record, mix and put music out on the market are talking about SACD/DSD. For every producer that really truly digs DVD-A, there are ten gushing about SACD. Rolling Stone put 1.3 million SACDs in their Dec 17 issue, not DVD-A. Every place that sells music CDs has SACDs in store whether they know it or not. I see the Stones and Dylan re-masters, along with other hybrids mixed in with regular CDs at various stores.
I can't say the same for DVD-A. DVD-A gets a special section with SACD, or it isn't carried.
Audiophiles - all the buzz is SACD, it doesn't matter that all SACDs might start life as PCM. Perception is everything. Audiophiles like dedicated players, there is no such thing as a dedicated DVD-A player. It will play DVD-V and must support the video portion of DVD-A. Audiophiles do have some impact on formats. All the ultra high-end machines are universal DVD-A/SACD or dedicated SACD, how many mega buck players are DVD-A only? Someone tell me.
Sony's first machines were stero only to PANDER to the audiophile. Sony made sure to keep the video portion out of SACD not only during the first years, but well beyond until SACD II to further pander to the audiophile, and it worked.
And to confuse things further, the video spec for SACD was stated back in 1999, it's just not in use at the moment. SACD II forces all players to support that feature by........ 2007? as per Sony/Philips, but don't quote me on that date.
DVD-A could survive, but not as a music format in my opinion. The folks that push it could end up doing something else with it, marketing it another way. In the end, Joe Blow consumer will decide the fate, dual discs flippers aside, SACD in the form of hybrids have already snuck in everywhere. Ask Joe Blow what Super Audio CD means and I'm sure he'll usually have a good guess, mention DVD-audio and I'm sure some DVD-Video answer will come.
In the end, it's not about what I like or don't like, of the two formats, SACD is the one, I considered DVD-A dead four years ago. They could both die and end up in Mini Disc land being that zillions of people are happy with crappy sounding MP3. But I hope and pray that one will survive and push hi res music in stereo and multi-channel into the real big time. I just don't see DVD-A doing it.
- Tony
http://www.epinions.com/user-sslabs
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 21. February 2004 @ 22:33
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Senior Member
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22. February 2004 @ 03:24 |
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Some very good points made here.
I honestly believe the biggest reason that a lot of stores carry SACD over DVDA is the dual layer thing, where most of the buyers just don't even realise they are getting SACD as they are buying for the CD layer.
When the dualdisc format is more widespread, that will really help DVDA. For exactly the same reasons as the hybrid CD/SACD discs helped SACD.
The thing that held DVDA back was the industry's insistence on waiting for the copy protection to get sorted out properly, which it now is. CPPM combined with MLP encoding will ensure that it cannot be ripped.
There is also a lot of confusion over the 2 DVD formats. Again, most end users are under the impression that DVD-Audio is either Dolby Digital or DTS, and they just are not aware of the real DVD-Audio format's existence. Even the stores themselves are guilty of this. I've lost count of the amount of times that I've been "told" that DVDA is DTS, or that I don't need DVDA as long as I buy a reciever which has DTS decoders built in!
My belief is still that DVDA will be (eventually) the bigger format purely because the end users can create high res content for this using $99 applications such as discWelder Bronze. Show me any DSD app that will do this!
The point about MP3 is also well taken - it does make me wonder why we even bother sometimes, it really does.
As you say, time will tell - and when users buy a replacement DVD player, the chances are that the new one will be DVDA compatible - even Philips have now become DVDA/MLP licensees.
The HF content is a worry though, as it is very capable of damaging equipment due to the high energy levels. If your speakers cannot reproduce this, the noise will still be (inaudibly) damaging your amps.
Still, as I said, you do raise a number of very good points.
The best of all is that one will survive. I still back DVDA to be the long term good bet, especially given Sony's huge losses last year. My guess is it's only a matter of time....but we will see.
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