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Is 8x burning still needed with good 16x media?
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bratcher
Senior Member
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27. January 2009 @ 19:14 |
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Or is that something thats not needed anymore? I've burned at 8x for a long time on 16x media & always had great results with it. However I tried 16x burns with data almost to the 4.5gb mark & they all tested very good with DVDInfopro. This was with ptemium TY (not the valueline stuff) Ritek F1, Prodisc F02 & some MIT Verbatim. Quality ratings were around 96 to 98% on all discs with PI's (peak) below 64 & PIF's (peak) no more that 6. Haven't tried burning a DVD video disc at 16x though then doing a playback on my standalong DVD recorder. Not sure if it would play back ok although discs burned at 8x play perfectly.
What do you think? Is it good to stick with the 8x burning idea with 16x media or can we all burn faster with the same good results? I've read that some people get really good results burning in the 12x range
I got 14 & 16x rith Ritek FI & Prodisc F02 media. Verb & TY both gave me 18x & my recorder was set for 20x with the exact same data for the burning of all 4 discs.
I haven't tried burning CMC any faster than 8x nor do I have any on hand for testing.
Wonder what results I'd get burning TY 16x valueline at 16x? Does it work well above 8x?
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Moderator
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27. January 2009 @ 21:58 |
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I have burned at 8X in some time other than for testing and usually I have found that burning at a higher speed produces better results. 12X is fine, but I currently leave Imgburn set to max. and whatever speed it gets up to it just does it. I rarely see speeds above 16X however, but I have got up to 21X on a few occasions. This is my method for all media, be it Ritek, CMC, Ricoh, TY or Verbatim.
Todays quality burners with firmware to match is geared for burning at a higher speed. We have 20X and 22X burners, but normally everyone uses 16X media. Slow speeds are a thing of the past.
I've burned 8X TY @ 16X with decent results as well. You just have to do some testing to see where your sweet spot is on your system with the media that you are using.
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AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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27. January 2009 @ 22:06 |
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JoeRyan says the laser power output for burning is the square root of the burn speed x 50 mw.
So at 4x laser output = 100 mw
8x " " = 140 mw
12x " " = 175 mw
16x " " = 200 mw
At higher diode laser outputs and fast modulation of the laser, laser wear is greatly acellerated.
"The flimsier the product,the higher the price"
Ferengi 82nd rule of aqusition
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27. January 2009 @ 22:19 |
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Originally posted by iluvendo:
JoeRyan says the laser power output for burning is the square root of the burn speed x 50 mw.
So at 4x laser output = 100 mw
8x " " = 140 mw
12x " " = 175 mw
16x " " = 200 mw
At higher diode laser outputs and fast modulation of the laser, laser wear is greatly acellerated.
All hail the mighty Joe Ryan.
/me bows down :P
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bratcher
Senior Member
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27. January 2009 @ 22:30 |
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Originally posted by LOCOENG:
I have burned at 8X in some time other than for testing and usually I have found that burning at a higher speed produces better results. 12X is fine, but I currently leave Imgburn set to max. and whatever speed it gets up to it just does it. I rarely see speeds above 16X however, but I have got up to 21X on a few occasions. This is my method for all media, be it Ritek, CMC, Ricoh, TY or Verbatim.
Todays quality burners with firmware to match is geared for burning at a higher speed. We have 20X and 22X burners, but normally everyone uses 16X media. Slow speeds are a thing of the past.
I've burned 8X TY @ 16X with decent results as well. You just have to do some testing to see where your sweet spot is on your system with the media that you are using.
My Samsung burner won't go above the rated speed for media. If a disc says 16x then it won't go any higher. TY & Verb will go up to 18x though. 16x on an 8x TY? My burner won't do that. Just tops out at 8x!! Strange (firmware) thing is that 8x Prodisc F01 won't burn any faster than 4x & my burner has the latest firmware. So I'm using those in my standalone DVD recorder at 1x until they run out & they burn fine at that speed.
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bratcher
Senior Member
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27. January 2009 @ 22:34 |
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Originally posted by iluvendo:
JoeRyan says the laser power output for burning is the square root of the burn speed x 50 mw.
So at 4x laser output = 100 mw
8x " " = 140 mw
12x " " = 175 mw
16x " " = 200 mw
At higher diode laser outputs and fast modulation of the laser, laser wear is greatly acellerated.
So you burn everything at 4x right?
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Senior Member
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28. January 2009 @ 00:08 |
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When I first started, I had some CMC MAGs that were crap above 4x. Since then I use TYG02s (8x) or Verbatim -Rs (16x). For my own backups, I like to stay at 8x or 12x. I have played around with speeds up to 20x with pretty decent results, but like to keep it a little slower for everyday burning.
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Senior Member
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28. January 2009 @ 08:42 |
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I'm with Ferguj, I burn everything at 12X, I've burned at 20X a couple of times for the hell of it, but the time difference in the two speeds is not that great due to writing lead in and lead outs. So, I'm sticking with 12X for now.
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bratcher
Senior Member
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28. January 2009 @ 13:59 |
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Originally posted by ferguj1:
When I first started, I had some CMC MAGs that were crap above 4x. Since then I use TYG02s (8x) or Verbatim -Rs (16x). For my own backups, I like to stay at 8x or 12x. I have played around with speeds up to 20x with pretty decent results, but like to keep it a little slower for everyday burning.
Nothing like burning a little slower than a discs max speed just to be on the safe side. For some media it's a good idea. I had some Memorex CMAGS that wouldn't do well at 16x but they burned fine at 8x. On the other hand some Phillips CMAGS I tried were fine at 16x so maybe Memorex was buying lower quality media at that time to save a few cents. Same with TDK. The CMC discs they were using was total crap. Worse than what Memorex bought back then. Of course (from what I've seen lately) both TDK & Memorex have switched to Ritek but I'm still not buying Memorex or TDK because of the bad experience I've had with both brands. If I want Ritek then I'll get some & yes in my burner it's pretty good media although TY & Verb are still better.
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Senior Member
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28. January 2009 @ 14:17 |
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Originally posted by bratcher:
Originally posted by iluvendo:
JoeRyan says the laser power output for burning is the square root of the burn speed x 50 mw.
So at 4x laser output = 100 mw
8x " " = 140 mw
12x " " = 175 mw
16x " " = 200 mw
At higher diode laser outputs and fast modulation of the laser, laser wear is greatly acellerated.
So you burn everything at 4x right?
Hi,
endo taught me to burn my Taiyo Yuden 8x discs at 4x :)
Jo
Life is Grand !
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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28. January 2009 @ 16:05 |
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As far as the drive goes, slower speeds will always prolong the life of the drive motor, bearings, and recording laser diode. As far as recording quality on a disc, that depends on how much time and effort the firmware engineers spent on tuning the recording properties for a particular batch of discs (designated by an MID code. If the manufacturer is consistent, all production designated by a particular code will behave the same as the test batches.) at a number of different recording speeds. One MID code may be better tuned for 16X recording than for 8X, 6X, or 4X recording. In that case, a user should stick with 16X.
In most cases, users will notice fewer speeds allowed for discs. The reduction in choices is a result of less effort spent on testing and tuning options in order to keep costs down. It is always worth checking the first several discs from a spindle at a particular speed on a particular drive in order to determine if the combination produces good recordings. If the combination works, that speed/medium/drive combination ought to be good for the rest of the spindle (assuming that the bottom discs have been properly supported mechanically in order to prevent tilt or scratching). The next spindle of the same discs will require new confirmation tests just to be on the safe side. The best producers will show little variation in results. (Different numbers at the end of the MID codes signify changes in dye formulation, and one can expect some differences there if the numbers change.)
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AfterDawn Addict
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28. January 2009 @ 16:24 |
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Originally posted by bryston:
Originally posted by bratcher:
Originally posted by iluvendo:
JoeRyan says the laser power output for burning is the square root of the burn speed x 50 mw.
So at 4x laser output = 100 mw
8x " " = 140 mw
12x " " = 175 mw
16x " " = 200 mw
At higher diode laser outputs and fast modulation of the laser, laser wear is greatly acellerated.
So you burn everything at 4x right?
Hi,
endo taught me to burn my Taiyo Yuden 8x discs at 4x :)
Jo
Unfortunately these 'rules of thumb' can sometimes lead to horrible results.
I've posted this a few times, but I think it bears repeating.
Here's an example of a well reviewed LG burner ?LG GH22LP20 is a solid performer and an excellent choice for reliable CD and DVD burning at record speeds. It effortlessly produces quality burns faster than most other drives to date. We highly recommend it.? paired with Taiyo Yuden discs.
SONY DVD-R 16X ( TYG03 )
Batch #GH000073 - 0909
LG GH22NP20 1.00 ...Nero CD/DVD Speed 4.7.7.15
Burn Speed 4X
Note the quality score of this 4X burn.
Let's move up a few notches.
SONY DVD-R 16X ( TYG03 )
Batch #GH000073 - 0909
LG GH22NP20 1.00 ...Nero CD/DVD Speed 4.7.7.15
Burn Speed 12X
Now note the quality score whan burned at 12X.
The thing is it's easy to find the right combination of burner/media/speed. The insane folks at CDFreaks are allways testing and posting Quality scans. You don't have to do any testing youself, just peruse their forums.
When considering a new burner check out CDFreak's reviews. They always test various media and post the results for each burner. Making it simple to get a nice burner media match.
I like TYG02 (8X -R) discs. They are priced right and tend to work well in most burners and players, new and old. The reviews showed that the Pioneer 115D did well with these.
Here's 2 of my Pioneer burned scans (I use my BenQ for scanning).
These discs were both burned at 12X... over the rated speed of 8X.
Needless to say I'm pleased. Usually when folks have to slow down the burn it denotes a less than ideal media/burner match.
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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28. January 2009 @ 16:31 |
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Graphic support of exactly the point I was making. Thanks!
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bratcher
Senior Member
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29. January 2009 @ 10:07 |
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Originally posted by MysticE:
Needless to say I'm pleased. Usually when folks have to slow down the burn it denotes a less than ideal media/burner match.
So how do you burn TY 8x media at 12x? Hacked firmware or something? My Samsung with it's latest factory firmware won't do it but then it won't burn Prodisc F01 (8x media) over 4x either.
The fastest I can go with 8x TY is 8x & no more.
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Moderator
1 product review
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29. January 2009 @ 11:20 |
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You can use MCSE to alter the media speed values which in turn allows you to set the recongized speeds of the media. It's not really a tool for the faint of heart and can screw up a drive if you don't know what you are doing.
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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29. January 2009 @ 11:30 |
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Your drive has no firmware settings that allow Taiyo Yuden 8X media to be recorded beyond 8X. You must wait until Samsung engineers release a firmware update that will allow recording at a faster speed. There are often firmware hacks that will allow faster speeds, but unless that hackers have half a million dollars in test equipment to determine how a faster speed affects jitter, error rates, and the other 70+ specifications that define a good recording, I would avoid any firmware changes that do not come from the factory producing the drive.
As for Prodisc F01, those media use Fuji's Oxonol dye that requires more laser power at any given speed. Slower recording speeds use less laser diode power, so the Samsung engineers left 4X as the recommended speed for good burns on this dye. (Somewhat analogous to magnetic tape coercivity, higher required power sometimes means greater stability at fine delineations. Initial tests implied that the Oxonol dye was notably more stable in environmental tests that azo-cyanine or cyanine dyes; but as far as I know, no one is testing environmental stability any longer because sales/marketing departments are convinced consumers will not pay any more for media with good results.)
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AfterDawn Addict
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29. January 2009 @ 13:18 |
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Originally posted by LOCOENG:
You can use MCSE to alter the media speed values which in turn allows you to set the recongized speeds of the media. It's not really a tool for the faint of heart and can screw up a drive if you don't know what you are doing.
In my case with the TYG02's and the Pioneer 115D, 12X was one of the available, offered speeds. No altered firmware involved. From perusing the scans at CDFreaks I saw many good results at this speed. My own tests were near perfect. I don't chase sales at brick and mortar shops. I wait till either SupermediaMedia store or Meritline have specials on the TYG02's (Premium line) and stock up. No tax, no shipping, no driving or waiting in lines.
@ bratcher
My point is to find the ideal media for your burner, and stick with it. 12X works great with the Pioneer 115D, your mileage will vary.
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bratcher
Senior Member
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29. January 2009 @ 21:04 |
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Well I'm not complaining folks. My drive is happy with any good quality media. I usually feed it the following 16x media. Verbatim, Tayio Yuden, Ritek & Prodisc & get good burns with all of these at either 8 or 16x. The 8x TY valueline gives pretty good results too BTW. Didn't know about the Prodisc F01 dye being different, I won't buy any more of them as 4x is way too slow for me.
Thanks for the input. I'll follow the thread for awhile if anyone wishes to continue with it. While the 8x speed is good I think I'll start burning at 16x for awhile. Even my DVD recorder can play a 16x burned disc without problems & the data siscs read back fine.
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