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14. July 2012 @ 09:37 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Seems I may finally be getting to the bottom of why almost every Verbatim disc you can buy in the UK will coaster if you write on it (with a proper CD marker, we're not talking ballpoint here). They're all in fact manufactured by CMC, which from what I can recall, is a pretty lousy media brand?



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13
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14. July 2012 @ 15:48 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
CMC media varies. I've seen excellent results, to C- like results. Essentially, they're inconsistent. I suppose Verbatim as a whole seems to be now. Certainly employing CMC's media! Most burnable media fanboys stick with Taiyo Yuden, or Verbatim MCC dyes. They seem to suggest the best longevity, and reliable/consistent burns. (I'm a media fanboy)

Rich, I don't know if it's simply due to a fresh install, or what. But GTA IV runs very smooth on the SSD. Smoother than it ever has! The install was a pain in the butt, thanks to M$'s wonderful (NOT) Games for windows Live! I had to try signing in, and updating like 3 or four times to get it to take! It took over an hour to install. GTA V better not be a pain in the butt!!!

The SSD Is wonderful!!! Firefox is my only existing bug :p As well as adobe flash ;)



To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question!

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 14. July 2012 @ 15:48

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14. July 2012 @ 15:53 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by sammorris:
Seems I may finally be getting to the bottom of why almost every Verbatim disc you can buy in the UK will coaster if you write on it (with a proper CD marker, we're not talking ballpoint here). They're all in fact manufactured by CMC, which from what I can recall, is a pretty lousy media brand?
Maybe there no so here, the verbs here are doing just fine, plus I mark mine all the time with no problems, looks like you guys in the UK are getting ripped.
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14. July 2012 @ 18:56 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
If I'm correct your talking about CD's which Verbatim mainly are CMC and over the years I've had aboot a 20% success rate for longevity and flat out bad.Chris
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14. July 2012 @ 19:03 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
It seems to have only become an issue in recent years - I used to use Verbatim CDs for a long time without incident, but now, you can see right through the discs from the underside and see the reversed image of the Verbatim logo through it... My experience is when you write on them with CD markers, you can see that too from the other side, and the data becomes worthless :/



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13
harvardguy
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15. July 2012 @ 05:53 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Hey Jeff - thanks for the additional crossfire tips. I have had to put the cards aside and have been off my gaming machine for a day or so, but crossfire is coming up next week I think.

Kevin, yeah I read earlier about that hell you went through with MS live - haha. But I like that GTA4 is running really smooth for you now on the SSD. Congratulations once more.

I just am not sure that I need one that big - for crysis, all of them, I would think 120 gigs is enough for me.

Regarding GTA4 the game, now that I have played Mafia, I don't know if I'll go back to GTA4. I still didn't finish Mafia, but I'm near the end, but then I ran into the add-on exploits which were awesome.

-------------------

But let me get back to hardware, especially after tonight's adventure!

Guys, I have had the craziest experience, that peaked this evening, that somehow reminds me of the way that Intel has put an insulating thermal paste on the ivy bridge, as first discovered by some curious gamers over in Japan, to discourage dramatic overclocking, presumably in order to sell its higher priced chips.


As I had mentioned, last weekend, for Miles, the animator/modeler family member, I blew off the dust, and cleaned off a stock intel cooler, tied to a hot running i7 940, replacing the cheap Intel paste, or whatever the builder used, with Artic Silver 5, thereby dropping cpu temperature from 95 to 84, per the digital readout on an evga x58 sli motherboard, per speed fan, and per the bios "cpu temperature."

I had thought that the core temps, in the 70s, were way too high.

Then I opened up the tests, starting with speedfan, then core temp, and saw to my absolute consternation that all cores had climbed to 100, 98, 99, 99.

Over at Tom's I posted the question WHY ??????????????

Earlier today the situation turned from dreadful, to drastic, the machine over the last couple of days moving from shutting off twice a day, to as of this afternoon, shutting off every two minutes and therefore becoming totally unusable.

So an hour ago, I talked Miles through a dramatic underclock:

1. turning every case fan to max (probably minimal impact)
2. turning off HT (in my mind eliminating half of the heat-producing engines)
3. reducing vcore from 1.1 to 1.0 (probably major impact) and
4. reducing clock multiple from 22, to the minimum of 12 (biggest impact of all.)

The goal was to stop the shutting off, by reducing core temps below 90 under full load. We accomplished that, with core at 85 at full load. The machine still seems plenty powerful for what he does with it, which is not gaming.

I invite you guys to go over to the thread and comment - or comment over here. Especially you, Blaze, since you're a Tom's regular.

Nobody has explained how cpu temp could drop 11 degrees C, resulting in core temp climbing 30 degrees C.


My theory is similar to what Blaze suggests I should do in removing the IHS on an ivy bridge next year - replacing with a superior thermal paste, allowing it to overclock like crazy as well as sandy bridge.


Per my theory: the artic silver 5 did just that for the 940, according to my thinking, allowing the computer to overclock itself, beyond the realistic operating temperature of the cores on that chip, even for hot-running nehalem, pushing core temps to the ridiculous 100 degree range. "Great power management at play" on a non-overclocked cpu (but which never should have been binned as a 940 in my opinion) resulting in total shutdowns.

Tonight's solution: major underclock. Now the machine runs "cool" and does not shut down. I think as long as core temps never pass 95, he will never see a shutdown.

Right now, at idle, cpu temp is 59, core temps are in the 70s. At 50% load, cpu temp is 65, and core temps are in the mid 80s. I ordered a push-pin arctic cooling freezer 7 pro that I can slap on without removing the motherboard, and maybe we can move some of those clocks back up again. But it seems plenty fast still for what he does. LOL


But I am still looking for an explanation, unless you buy my "wacky" theory.

Why would cpu temperature drop 11 degrees C, but core temps climb 30 degrees C?

Rich

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 28. July 2012 @ 17:32

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15. July 2012 @ 06:11 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Even ignoring the core temps, you shouldn't be seeing anything like those CPU temps after having redone the thermal paste. It sounds like the paste job has been interfered with, whether the surface was dirty, the paste is no good, or something along those lines, the idle temperature is too high for a start. I'd say try doing the thermal paste again, and if that fails get another cooler.



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13
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15. July 2012 @ 14:31 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
I'm sure I could have gotten by with a smaller drive. But hey, just call me money bags! LOL!!! Nah, I simply like flexibility. Plus I could comfortably afford the drive, so I said go for it ;) A bit upset about the huge price drop, but hey, what are you gonna do...

Played mafia, and dirt 3 at a buddies house yesterday. Both were impressive. Don't know that I'm into the whole storyline of Mafia, but then, I could barely hear anything with all the talking going on behind me.



To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question!

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 15. July 2012 @ 14:35

harvardguy
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16. July 2012 @ 00:38 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by sam:
Even ignoring the core temps, you shouldn't be seeing anything like those CPU temps after having redone the thermal paste. It sounds like the paste job has been interfered with, whether the surface was dirty, the paste is no good, or something along those lines, the idle temperature is too high for a start. I'd say try doing the thermal paste again, and if that fails get another cooler.
Thanks Sam - well I'm scatching my head. I used the cleaning solution, and am sure the arctic went on okay, and the heat sink seated. You're saying it's still running super hot. Yes, I guess so, but cpu temp before I messed with it was 95, dropped to 84 after new paste and blowing off hsf, and now after underclock is 58 idle, and 70 under load.

At the same time I have a freezer 7 coming, AND a freezer 13 coming that will handle 200 watts, specifically for hot i7s, and similar push pin mounting without mobo removal. It comes with thermal paste but I'll remove and use the arctic silver 5 again.

But Sam - tell me how I could drop the cpu temp from 95 to 84 - as confirmed by led readout, bios cpu temp, and speedfan cpu temp, in other words an 11 degree drop in cpu temp, and then see the core temps climb 30 degrees to 99 and 100. Is this power management gone crazy or did we all eat some mushrooms the other night?

--------------------

Kevin - ok, not Kevin, I meant "Moneybags." LOL Well maybe you're right, I should just cough up the extra $100 and go 256gb on the ssd.

So you're not sure if you liked Mafia or not - what's the diff from GTA4? - he's a thug too! I think Mafia is awesome, and it makes it hard for me to go back to GTA4. But maybe call me "retarded" haha. (I hope that was not politically incorrect.)

Rich
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16. July 2012 @ 00:49 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
The action seems fine and good, and I may just try it again(wink wink), before I buy it.



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harvardguy
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16. July 2012 @ 01:29 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Yeah, try it again at your friend's house, (wink wink) before you buy it! LOL

And don't just think that the Mafia 2 action is only in the game. Go to the extras - and play the first extra for his buddy, his cousin - you play the cousin who has to tail an fbi informant, then shoot his way through an fbi safe house, and then that section culminates in an amazing car chase on a frozen river. One of the most awesome chase sequences I have ever been a part of !!!
Rich
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16. July 2012 @ 01:44 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by harvardguy:
Yeah, try it again at your friend's house, (wink wink) before you buy it! LOL

And don't just think that the Mafia 2 action is only in the game. Go to the extras - and play the first extra for his buddy, his cousin - you play the cousin who has to tail an fbi informant, then shoot his way through an fbi safe house, and then that section culminates in an amazing car chase on a frozen river. One of the most awesome chase sequences I have ever been a part of !!!
Rich
That does sound interesting! :)



To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question!
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16. July 2012 @ 13:20 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by harvardguy:
Originally posted by sam:
Even ignoring the core temps, you shouldn't be seeing anything like those CPU temps after having redone the thermal paste. It sounds like the paste job has been interfered with, whether the surface was dirty, the paste is no good, or something along those lines, the idle temperature is too high for a start. I'd say try doing the thermal paste again, and if that fails get another cooler.
Thanks Sam - well I'm scatching my head. I used the cleaning solution, and am sure the arctic went on okay, and the heat sink seated. You're saying it's still running super hot. Yes, I guess so, but cpu temp before I messed with it was 95, dropped to 84 after new paste and blowing off hsf, and now after underclock is 58 idle, and 70 under load.

At the same time I have a freezer 7 coming, AND a freezer 13 coming that will handle 200 watts, specifically for hot i7s, and similar push pin mounting without mobo removal. It comes with thermal paste but I'll remove and use the arctic silver 5 again.

But Sam - tell me how I could drop the cpu temp from 95 to 84 - as confirmed by led readout, bios cpu temp, and speedfan cpu temp, in other words an 11 degree drop in cpu temp, and then see the core temps climb 30 degrees to 99 and 100. Is this power management gone crazy or did we all eat some mushrooms the other night?

--------------------

Kevin - ok, not Kevin, I meant "Moneybags." LOL Well maybe you're right, I should just cough up the extra $100 and go 256gb on the ssd.

So you're not sure if you liked Mafia or not - what's the diff from GTA4? - he's a thug too! I think Mafia is awesome, and it makes it hard for me to go back to GTA4. But maybe call me "retarded" haha. (I hope that was not politically incorrect.)

Rich

Rich,

Don't be in such a rush to clean off the paste that comes on the new cooler. They come with Arctic MX2 applied, and MX2 is slightly better than AS-5. Big Bonus for AMD Fans is, it doesn't dry out, so it's much easier to change coolers!

Best,
Russ


GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor


This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 16. July 2012 @ 13:58

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16. July 2012 @ 14:24 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Agreed, MX-2 is good paste.



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13
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16. July 2012 @ 16:47 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by sammorris:
It seems to have only become an issue in recent years - I used to use Verbatim CDs for a long time without incident, but now, you can see right through the discs from the underside and see the reversed image of the Verbatim logo through it... My experience is when you write on them with CD markers, you can see that too from the other side, and the data becomes worthless :/
I did some more research on the verb's, sammy is right about them being transparent when I turn it over under the light after I mark my dvd verb's, do not know if that's a bad thing or not, because so far I have never had a problem buying here in the Philadelphia area anyway, they are and always have been MCC (Mitsubishi Chemical Corp.), now my JVC Ty's after marking them they are not transparent under the light.

So like I said no problem with my verb's so far, have been using them for years now, the JVC 's I started using early this year, so take that and use your own judgement.

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 16. July 2012 @ 16:50

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16. July 2012 @ 17:01 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
There's nothing wrong with transparency per se. I see commercial pressed transparent discs all the time. I rather despise them though. My first couple of disc drives had trouble with them. Go figure! Light tends to pass through something that's transparent! I've seen transparent BD's as well. Guess they're continuing to be dumb!
If the felt marker is Causing transparency though, I would certainly consider buying something else ;) TY's have a 99.9% success rate here :p Verbatim MCC's are good as well. Giveaway discs, I'll use just about anything though, and burn them at 25 - 50% of their rated maximum. Generally 8X Dvds, and 16 - 24X Cd's. Though TY's I comfortably burn at 12 - 16X.



To delete, or not to delete. THAT is the question!
harvardguy
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16. July 2012 @ 18:59 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Are you guys kidding! MX-2 is better the Arctic Silver 5. I didn't think there was anything better!!!

Rich
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16. July 2012 @ 19:29 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by harvardguy:
Are you guys kidding! MX-2 is better the Arctic Silver 5. I didn't think there was anything better!!!

Rich

Rich,

It's marginally better than AS-5, and is totally non conductive. Here I am more than a year and a half later and I still haven't cleaned the CPU cooler as of yet.

Temps at time of original install of the Coolit LCS




Temps over 1 1/2 year later. Cooler still has not been cleaned




If you clean off the pre applied paste on any Arctic Cooler, you are just throwing away one perfectly good application of MX-2! I know some here tried a diamond paste, but never heard very much about how good it was. One of it's drawbacks, is it polishes the numbers off of the CPU, and with Intel being such miserable SOB's about CPU return policies, costing about $6.50 to ship because of Intel's insistence that you return their crappy stock cooler with the CPU. With AMD you only need to send the CPU, for less than $2, and they never hassle you!

Best Regards,
Russ

GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor


This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 17. July 2012 @ 10:08

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17. July 2012 @ 02:46 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
I have never had to send an Intel CPU back. (Nor an AMD CPU for that matter).
For how rarely you'd need to RMA CPUs, I don't think the return policy is much to complain about :P



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13
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17. July 2012 @ 03:36 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Only ever had to return one CPU which was a Q9450 with stuck thermistors. Intel were very accommodating and got me fixed up with a Q6600 as per my request(which turned out to be a very good one). Both CPUs were OEM so no stock cooler was involved.



AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 4GHz(20 x 200) 1.5v 3000NB 2000HT, Corsair Hydro H110 w/ 4 x 140mm 1500RPM fans Push/Pull, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD5, 8GB(2 x 4GB) G.Skill RipJaws DDR3-1600 @ 1600MHz CL9 1.55v, Gigabyte GTX760 OC 4GB(1170/1700), Corsair 750HX
Detailed PC Specs: http://my.afterdawn.com/estuansis/blog_entry.cfm/11388

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 17. July 2012 @ 03:37

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17. July 2012 @ 06:03 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Returning a Q9450 to swap for a Q6600, I doubt that's a request they get often. Profit for them really be giving you an older CPU in exchange :P



Afterdawn Addict // Silent PC enthusiast // PC Build advisor // LANGamer Alias:Ratmanscoop
PC Specs page -- http://my.afterdawn.com/sammorris/blog_entry.cfm/11247
updated 10-Dec-13
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17. July 2012 @ 11:28 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
An OEM is normally only handled by the re-seller and typically they don't trade up/down as it is exact replacement. Also the warranty period is much less, something like 90 days to a year. That goes for Intel or AMD.

That Q6600 sure was a nice Intel cpu, you done well getting that one for sure!

Since I've built so many computers I've seen many CPU's go bad, some right away and others a year or so out. The ones that aren't bad right off the start seem to fail right around the year mark +/- a couple of months. OEM's use to be the processors that would fail more often at least with AMD's, Intels were all made at the same plants years ago. I'm sure that has changed since.

As to paste I don't find a big difference in cooling between old ceramic professional paste and the newer diamond pastes. Is diamond pastes coefficient better, sure but it is very close to the old pastes. What I don't like diamond paste? It holds the heatsink more to the cpu and you can pull the processor right out of the socket when removing the heatsink. I haven't had a problem persay with the etching wearing off of my cpu's but that could happen especially if you are constantly re-pasting or twisting the heatsink a lot to get the cpu off it.
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17. July 2012 @ 16:43 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
For some reason or another this CPU still had a manufacturer warranty. I spoke to the customer service rep form Intel and asked if I could get a Q6600 sent out in return. He said it was unusual but they could help me out.

It was an almost cherry picked G0 that's still holding 3.7GHz to this day.

Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600(G0) @ 3.708GHz 9 x 412MHz 1.45v w/ Tuniq Tower 120(lapped)
Gigabyte GA-X38-DS4
2 x 2GB Mushkin XP Ascent PC2-6400 @ DDR2 825 CL 4-4-4-12 w/ 2.1v

That was and still is a fast system. Every bit the machine my gaming rig is. Idles cooler too.

I use Arctic Silver Ceramique and have had more than agreeable results for years. Totally non-conductive as well. Has the added bonus of actually curing hard by design and not drying out.'

EDIT: BTW a liberal re-application of the ole' Ceramique about 10 minutes ago has dropped my temps by ~3 degrees. Turns out the corners are high spots on my 955, and it benefited from using more than usual. Funny! Even funnier is the temp sensor updates more frequently now. More efficient thermal exchange? It cools down a lot faster. Load temps are about the same under IBT ie about 55 after several hours, but idles are improved greatly.



AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 4GHz(20 x 200) 1.5v 3000NB 2000HT, Corsair Hydro H110 w/ 4 x 140mm 1500RPM fans Push/Pull, Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD5, 8GB(2 x 4GB) G.Skill RipJaws DDR3-1600 @ 1600MHz CL9 1.55v, Gigabyte GTX760 OC 4GB(1170/1700), Corsair 750HX
Detailed PC Specs: http://my.afterdawn.com/estuansis/blog_entry.cfm/11388

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 17. July 2012 @ 17:49

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17. July 2012 @ 20:41 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by sammorris:
I have never had to send an Intel CPU back. (Nor an AMD CPU for that matter).
For how rarely you'd need to RMA CPUs, I don't think the return policy is much to complain about :P

Sam,

It's not just the return policy, it's the attitude of the people you are forced to deal with, such as deciding that since I wasn't willing to use the piece of crap stock cooler, the guy voided my warranty on my last E6750, right then and there! Sure, I got it back, but my whole point was, I shouldn't have had to!\

Russ

GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor


Advertisement
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18. July 2012 @ 14:16 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
SSD Special


Mushkin Chronos 120GB SSD $89.99

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820226236

AData 120GB SSD $79.99

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211588

I've used both with no complaints. The Mushkin comes with a 3.5" bay adapter.

Russ

GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor


 
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