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Burning DVD but DVD are bad disc
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smilecme
Newbie
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12. October 2004 @ 10:59 |
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I have been burning DVD for 8 months now. It seems as though lately when I burn a DVD shrink tells me everything burned correctly but when I take the DVD to a DVD player the player says bad disc. I go do three DVD in a row with it telling me it's a bad disk and then on the forth try it works. Why is this happening. I don;t think there is a problem with the DVD's. Has anyone been having this happen to them?
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ScubaPete
AfterDawn Addict
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12. October 2004 @ 17:34 |
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Hi smilecme,
Quote:
I don;t think there is a problem with the DVD's.
I think that's EXACTLY what it is -
For a little education, let's take Memorex as an excellent example as DVD media goes, 90% of Memorex is sub-standard as far as DVD backups are concerned, figures as high as 50% coasters have been reported (One member bought a stack of 50 and got 23 good burns.), not what I would call an impressive record. Memorex made a name for itself with their magnetic tapes (VHS and audio cassettes) and have been living off it ever since. There are 4 different companies that manufacture Memorex DVD's BTW and product quality varies widely as you might imagine. Only 10% of the Memorex out there, those discs manufactured by Mitsubishi in the 25 pack spindle are any good. It's easy to see now why the quality of a big-named company can't be trusted - " Who's making your Memorex tonight ?"
Is it just Memorex ? No ! I just used Memorex as an example, Princo, Orange Pack, Great AZO and most "store" discs aren't all that suitable as a DVD backup media - that's why we are specific in the type of media we are recommending.
1. * Cheap media freezes, skips, pixelats and may refuse to be recognized by both burners and players :-( Besides "Freezing", "skips" many times you'll get a "Cyclic Redundancy error" or an "I/O error". This message can mean that your discs are scratched or dirty, it can also mean that your burner won't accept your "cheap" media :-(
Another problem which, "Pops up" is a "*Power Calibration Error". This can stop you right in your tracks and most often is caused by, Yep, you guessed it, inexpensive media. *A "Power Calibration Error" can also be attributed to the Optical Components of a DVD Writer, though this isn't usually the case. Trying to shut down your software and ejecting your DVD then restarting your program and re-inserting the same media recently cleaned has been known to help in some cases.
Orange Pack, Princo, Great AZO and 90% of Memorex plus many others are just not that good for DVD burning. Those same discs however, are quite good for your MP3 music, picture archives, Spread sheets and Data..Even DataSafe G04's made by Ritek have been reported as an inferior quality media and are evoking that "Oh no, I shouldn't have gotten those."
What we are suggesting is to download this DVD Identifier to find out who manufactured your DVD and if it's a decent quality.
http://dvd.identifier.cdfreaks.com/
Once you have your disc identified, click the "More information" icon and see what information you're given. if you're not sure of the quality, come on back and we'll check it out for you -
2. A good grade, Hi-quality media is needed for DVD reproduction ! RiData, Sony, TDK, "Branded" Ritek G04's or "Branded" Verbatim Data Life, Verbatim DataLife plus, Taiyo Yuden's and generally, almost any discs manufactured by Mitsubishi are excellent bets. Among the better discs we're looking for, any media boasting "Advanced Metal AZO" - BUT it must say "METAL" AZO !, this indicates a superior dye and dye application on a good composite disc, while they are sometimes a bit "pricey" they are just the type of media we're looking for to do our DVD backups, Prices online from Meritline.com OR Newegg.com have gotten Ritek G04 starting at about a $ .45 (USD) a disc -
For DVD backups, purchasing inexpensive media or even average media is a gamble, some people win BUT the majority lose, they lose varying amounts true but, they still lose :-(
Using good grade media can guarantee you one thing to an absolute certainty; it surely cannot hurt.
In an effort to clear the air, when I speak of "Cheap" or "Inexpensive" media, I'm not referring to the price you pay at the counter - I'm referring to poor quality control used during manufacturing and the quality of the dye, dye application or composite type used. I'm not saying it won't burn - Some may burn, some may not. It's quality is inconsistent, meaning it's not dependable.
When I say "Branded" that means that when you pick up a disc in your hand, it says "Ritek" or "RiData" on the disc itself. The monetary cost of the media we recommend many times is cheaper than what you are purchasing now.
We like to verify our information prior to recommending things. There are certain things we look at. For instance, when their dye and dye application are listed as unknown, this almost guarantees us they are using whatever they can get at a cheap price. Companies that use quality materials like to BRAG about it, naming names and staying with quality manufacturers who produce their media.
Using DVD identifier and MediaMatch can help you find out a lot about what you're using. Purchasing your DVD media online can insure that you're getting quality merchandise at a good price. Shopping wisely will save you time, aggravation and money.
Cheers,
Pete
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jake180
Junior Member
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13. October 2004 @ 08:44 |
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Hi,
This happens to be my first post but i have been reading this site for a few months now. This happens to be the exact topic i was looking for today only problem is that I'm pretty sure this problem isn't being caused by poor quality dvd's.(yet I appreciate all that info that ScubaPete posted!!)
First a little background...
Before today i was using(and still am) DVDXCOPY Platinum and the trial of Anydvd ... unfortunatly my 21 days ran out and i can't afford to buy a license key nor do i want to since i know i can accomplish this without Anydvd by using Shrink/Decrypter etc. which i have been reading so much about on this site.
...oh and the media I'm using are DVD+R Verbatim.
Well ...to make it short and sweet I read the guide for DVD Shrink off this site and others(doom9.orG)I followed them step by step and everything is wonderful and works perfectly ... right up until i got to put my dvd into my dvd player or dvd-rom in which case it can't be read... I'm stumped ... all the people on this site are using this program with ease yet i can't get it to work for me (i wish i could go back in time or download another Anydvd cause it worked GREAT)
I'm trying to think of what else i can tell you ... not much other than the discs i've tried to use have worked flawlessly for me in other programs and also that i have Nero (i believe it's 6.0) so i don't understand what the issue is... other than the fact that i'm probably a dumbass and doing something completely wrong? :(
Any help would be greatly appreciated... Thanks!!
...Just another stupid question with a simple answer...that's me!
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jake180
Junior Member
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13. October 2004 @ 12:37 |
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*takes a bow in ScubaPete's direction*
I carefully followed one of your lovely guides from a different thread and successfully backed up "the day after tomorrow" which was giving me a hard time ... I don't understand why Decrypter burned it fine yet Nero ate up three of my dvd's (sigh) ... ahhh well .. just wanted to say this ...
ScubaPete IS THE MAN !! lol thanks for all your great informative/humourous posts!
...Just another stupid question with a simple answer...that's me!
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ScubaPete
AfterDawn Addict
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15. October 2004 @ 19:26 |
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Well there jake180,
For being so nice and friendly like you've been I guess if I could fix it so that you and your XCopy (Platinum) were working again you'd be pretty happy, well would ya ?
See that, I knew you would - Well one of our esteem members here has the thing that will do it for you and here it is -
It's called 321RIP and it puts the rip back in your XCopy. Just download it anywhere on your PC and like Hawk, it will seek out and activate your XCopy and the world will be at peace once again :)
http://321rip.tripod.com/
I've also "tweaked" my guide so maybe you should try it again.
AFA Nero ? Nero does get "Flaky" at times and should be reinstalled.
First, it must be properly uninstalled.
Use the "Add and Remove programs" in your Control Panel to remove all Nero components.
THIS IS IMPORTANT:
You MUSTuse;
Nero's General Clean Tool
Registry Checker and DriverClean Tool
InCD Clean Tool
The above MUST be used to totally eradicate Nero from your PC.
The above MUST be used to totally eradicate Nero. THEN like all proper un-installations, we need to reboot our PC to "Flush out" the program.
Your "Tool" Link:
Nero.com/us/631940828445001.html" class="korostus" target="_blank">http://www.Nero.com/us/631940828445001.html
When you reinstall Nero 6 DO NOT INSTALL InCD OR if you do, turn it off in msconfig (Better not to install it). It can and does cause problems with other programs.
I hope that helps,
Pete
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jake180
Junior Member
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20. October 2004 @ 05:29 |
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Pete,
Thanks again ... but what i really want to know now is ...what do you reccomend ...
1) staying with the combination that i am currently using which hasn't gave me any serious trouble yet. (making me think...hey if it's not broke don't fix it!)
or...
2) grabbin' that 321rip and going back to using DVDXCOPY Platinum.
Which would you prefer / reccomend?
And furthermore if you could enlighten me with your vast knowledge of this topic... lol .. I was curious if it is possible to make a back-up dvd of a burned dvd ( using the same program(s) ) ... i hope that makes sense... only reason i ask you Pete is because I tried already ... and it kept freezing up on me before i got to the analyzing stage. wierd. I have successfully backed-up a dvd that was previously burned using dvdxcopy by using dvddecrypter/shrink.
...does this mean that if a dvd is burnt ...in order to back up that burnt copy you'd need to use a program other than the original program you used?
...man it's early and i think i'm rambling but try and make some sense out of it... lol
Any help would be appreciated.
*bow*
Ok... now i am off to grab that 321rip to just check it out... ((thanks btw))
...Just another stupid question with a simple answer...that's me!
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Omikse
Newbie
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20. October 2004 @ 15:16 |
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I have read all of these post and I have found the information very interesting and helpful. But one thing I am looking for is how to optimize the ripper I use which is the latest version of DVDShrink which I downloaded last week. What are the optimal setting for DVDShrink if anyone knows. Thanks for the help
The Worlds First Backwards Eskimo
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ScubaPete
AfterDawn Addict
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20. October 2004 @ 16:30 |
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Hey Jake,
Using the 321RIP is fine, if you like DVD XCopy, which I don't care for all that much - primarily because of its limitations and inability to improve the final product like DVD Shrink's Deep Analysis and Quality Enhancements. Backing up the same 7GB + DVD, DVD Shrink will win, easily. It will take longer but it will be Ooohhh, sooo much better.
Iffin ya want fast times, DVD Shrink, without using the extra tools will be within a minute or 2 of DVD XCopy.
DVD XCopy cannot backup a copied DVD.
DVD Shrink can do it and DVD Decrypter can do it faster.
Shrink can edit the "Heck" out of a DVD - can join 1,2,3 or more DVD's together it's a pretty Kweel proggy ESPECIALLY it's price :)
Jake, the backup recipe is, DVD Decrypter, Mode, ISO, Read, then Mode, ISO, Write - and you'll have a perfect backup :)
I hope that helped,
Cheers
Howdy there Omikse, welcome to aD,
It's not possible to "Optimize" DVD Shrinks "ripping" ability. It is however possible to do so with DVD Decrypter. DVD Decrypter can also find faulty files and "fix" them so they don't show up on your copy. I have never seen a DVD that DVD Decrypter couldn't rip. On mine, the settings are set to remove RC, RCE's and POU's and on the CSS, if a DVD gives any trouble, I "tick" "Brute force --> I/O Key Exchange", that does it every time :)
For free, I just can't imagine how you could be without it -
Cheers,
Pete
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jake180
Junior Member
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20. October 2004 @ 19:27 |
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Pete, aka guru of burning lol
Thanks again... you have been most helpful BUT what fun would i be if i didn't pick your brain once more so here goes nuttin :P
To my knowledge i haven't changed ANY setting with shrink or decrypter YET all of a sudden i am getting an error which may or may not be important so i will confirm that with you before i preceed to ignore it (especially since it's never appeared before oddly enough).
here it is ... and i quote :
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DeviceIoControl(FSCTL_LOCK_VOLUME) Failed!
Device[0:1:0] HL-DT-ST DVDRAM GSA-4040B A300(F:)(SCSI)
Unable to lock volume for exlusive access.
Reason: Access is denied.
'ABORT' 'RETRY' 'IGNORE'
------------------------------------------------------
Obviously i have screwed something up .... hopefully it's a simple solution ... if you know the answer it would be greatly appreciated (as always)
p,s this appears after the encoding but before the burn.
Jake aka noob...soon to be expert lol
Cheers.
...Just another stupid question with a simple answer...that's me!
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ScubaPete
AfterDawn Addict
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20. October 2004 @ 21:15 |
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Open and close your DVD tray and give a second to be read and the error message should go away :)
If it doesn't work, reinstall your drive to make it clean and happy -
Cheers,
Pete
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Omikse
Newbie
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21. October 2004 @ 02:27 |
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Unfortunately I wish I could say the same. I do have DVD Decrypter for those DVD's that DVD Shrink could not rip, but I have had a few that DVD Decrypter could not. I have tried cleaning the DVD and cleaning the Player/Ripper but I still get some errors on a very few DVD's but what can I say other than that.
The Worlds First Backwards Eskimo
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ScubaPete
AfterDawn Addict
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21. October 2004 @ 12:23 |
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Welcome to aD Omikse,
It's not a case of being unable to break an encryption, it's a case of a bad DVD -
If you set DVD Decrypter to remove PUO's from IFO's and BUP's and under the CSS change the Break setting to Brute force - -> I/O Key exchange, there's nothing that cannot be ripped.
Having a disc with scratches or corrupt files is totally a different thing.
Actually, for corrupt files, if you rip in the IFO mode, by resting your curser on files you can rip "around" corrupt files -
For bad scratches, try toothpaste
Pete
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smilecme
Newbie
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21. October 2004 @ 12:50 |
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OK pete, Let's see if you can help me out. Why it is my HP will only allow me to use Memorex +r DVD in my burner and when ever I use other + R DVD, there is nothing on the DVD. IS there something I am doing wrong. Has my burner been taken over by Memorex? Anyone have the Answer?
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ScubaPete
AfterDawn Addict
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21. October 2004 @ 13:48 |
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Howdy smilecme, welcome to aD,
Ooohh Boy, Ooohhh Boy do I just LOVE HP burners -
I had an HP 200j, and getting it to work at all was a chore. So, yea - I know what you're sayin' -
After a firmware upgrade mine would finally burn decent media - You might try some Sony +R media, they should work -
My suggestion, "Goggle" for some firmware for your burner and if you can, shop for a new burner -
Me, I bought a Pioneer 107 - If I were you, I'd shop for a Dual layer burner - most are under a $100.00(USD).
Cheers,
Pete
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. October 2004 @ 11:14
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smilecme
Newbie
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21. October 2004 @ 14:18 |
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I believe that is the problem. The DVD burner die after owning the computer for three months. Now it's three month later and I think the burner is dying again. UGh! Guess I will be shopping for a better Burner soon.
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ScubaPete
AfterDawn Addict
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21. October 2004 @ 14:43 |
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Every cloud has a silver lining, they do install Pioneer drives in many of their PC, you should be under warrantee, see if you can get the Pioneer -
Cheers -
Pete
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Omikse
Newbie
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21. October 2004 @ 17:20 |
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Does Toothpaste really work on scratched DVD's if so I need to try that. As for the other suggestion you made about DVD Decrypter could you be more specific because I do not use it that often so I do not know much about it.
The Worlds First Backwards Eskimo
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jfa22
Newbie
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22. October 2004 @ 11:59 |
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hello everyone,
I woulf first like to say that all of your past posts have been an enormous help. Special thanks to ScubaPete, solving this one might be up to you yet again.
Anyway - like many others, I praise the DVDDecrypter and DVDShrinkr as a powerful and effective combo. I've had many successful burns until now. The Decrypter seems to work fine "operation success". I then burn with the decrypter, with Nero, and with Shrink wich uses Nero. So far everything seems fine. I put the disc into the DVD player and it just spins "loading". I then put it (the burnt copy) back into the decrypter and immediately get this message:
I/O error
Device:[3:0:0] HL-DT-ST DVDRAM 4040B A106 (D:)(ATA)
Scsi Status: 0X02
Interpretation: Check Condidtion
CDB: AD 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 08 04 00 00
Interpretation: Read DVD Structure - disk key (0)
Sense area: 70 00 05 00 00 00 10 AD 02 00 0E 24 00 00 C0 00 07 00 00 00 00 00 00
Then I close this message and get another:
Disc authorization failed!
Device: [3:0:0] HL-DT-ST DVDRAM 4040B A106 (D:)(ATA)
Reason: Failed to get disk key.
I've tried several different settings on the Decrypter, different blank DVD+R media brands, different originol DVDs and still no change with alot of money down the drain in wasted media (and time!). I thought it would be the DVD drive hardware but I can still read everything and burn CD's without a problem.
Anyone.....?
Thanks again all
-jfa22
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ScubaPete
AfterDawn Addict
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22. October 2004 @ 12:28 |
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Omikse,
"Dr. ScubaPete's, too cheap to buy the professional stuff, Recipe Book for Scratch Repair."
To help with those small "Kiddie Scratches" on your DVD's -
As a final resort to retrieve scratched DVD's.
Materials needed:
A soft cotton cloth
Toothpaste w/Borax
(Brasso metal polish may be used as a substitute for toothpaste)
Isopropanol Alcohol
Pledge
Glass
Ice
Orange Juice and Vodka
Method: "If this doesn't work it's into the "Circular File" (an Americanism meaning "The Garbage can") with you -
START:
1. Place the disc on a firm soft surface.
2.Apply a small amount of toothpaste with a small amount of Arm & Hammer Baking Soda to a clean, soft cotton cloth and apply to your DVD. Rubbing very firmly in even strokes from the center outwards towards the edge. Repeat 10 to 15 times. Do this over the entire disc turning the disc slowly in a circular manner, always going from the inside to the outer edge.
When Finished ?
3. clean it either with a commercial unit (available at "Radio Shack" OR your local electronics store) OR clean the disc thoroughly with a clean cotton cloth moistened with Isopropanol Alcohol, Contact lens cleaner OR in a bind, you may use some Windex (Windex has some additives, coloring and the like). Clean by using a firm even rubbing motion from the center outwards towards the edgeClean the disc thoroughly with a clean cotton cloth moistened with Isopropanol Alcohol, Contact lens cleaner OR in a bind use some Windex, using a firm even rubbing motion from the center outwards towards the edge.
NEXT:
4. Using a clean piece of cotton cloth, apply Pledge to the entire disc in the same manner as the toothpaste was applied above.
Attempt to play disc.
5. If the disc refuses to play, take 1 large 12oz. glass, add just 3 Ice cubes, too many ice cubes will "water down" the mixture rendering it unsuitable for usage, then add 70% Orange Juice and 30% Vodka. The contents are to be shaken, NOT STIRED. The glass's contents are to be liberally applied internally.
Steps 2 through 5 may be repeated as required to recover disc.
After 2 complete passes, step 5. may be repeated PRN. (PRN is medical lingo for "As needed" OR "Whenever you want.) :P)
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jfa22
Newbie
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22. October 2004 @ 14:40 |
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ScubaPete, how do you do it! How do you deal with all of our issues so professionally and patiently?
I'm new to the site and as I surf through many of the other threads, there you are, divining the problem and expertly guiding the reader to the end all "Burn, baby Burn". (I've printed off several already!)
I just wanted to recognize you for the time , effort and energy you put into this site.
Thanks- jfa22
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ScubaPete
AfterDawn Addict
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22. October 2004 @ 17:17 |
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Hi there jfa22 and welcome to AD,
(and thanks for the thanks, Lol)
One quick question - (and you know it's coming don't you ?) What kind of media are you using ? I/O errors are usually caused by poor OR dirty discs -
What DVD's have you been ripping and how have you been going about it ?
Let's see if we can find your problem and get it solved -
Pete
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jfa22
Newbie
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22. October 2004 @ 19:37 |
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Pete,
Thanks for the responce.
I was using Memorex fairly successfully about 80%. Until... the last 6 of one 50 pack and 20 discs into the next. Of the 26 only seven have been successful. So I bought a 5 pack of Imation and tested the first two with no success and the third worked. After reading some of the other posts, I'll track down some Verbatum or Ritek. I was concerned about the error message refering to my burner hardware and the forum talk about "picky" DVD players.
My process was a simple one. I would decrypt with DVD Decrypter into a preset file on my hard drive. I'm not sur why but it would end up as one NTI.iso file (Blue and Yellow Icon). If you could explain that too it would help. I would then have to extract the files with "Stuffit". Then I would open up DVD Shrink, find the Vidio TS files and let it do all the compression automatically under full disk backup then burn automatically with Nero. The whole process only took about an hour.
I only now found out that that Shrink can do it all. Anyway, If it is the discs I'll be mad and never buy them again. But it would be the easy fix. If its my drive, software or player then I'm worried...
And what the scoop with labels? are some better than others or NO all the way around? What about a Sharpie? and lastly, if you dont mind, what is the difference between the DVD+ vs. the DVD-
Thanks again Pete!
-James
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ScubaPete
AfterDawn Addict
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23. October 2004 @ 16:28 |
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James,
Quote:
I would decrypt with DVD Decrypter into a preset file on my hard drive. I'm not sur why but it would end up as one NTI.iso file (Blue and Yellow Icon).
It should be a mds / ISO file - I don't know what you did to your settings, go back and set them to default.
As you've found out, DVD Shrink can do most of it -
Quote:
I would then have to extract the files with "Stuffit".
Why on earth would you do that ? Why not use "File", "Open Image" in DVD Shrink ? When you start using too many proggys you only cause yourself headaches.
Quote:
burn automatically with Nero
No problem with that BUT you have to decide what type of files you wish to work with to keep your life a bit simpler.
Recipe 1.
Use DVD Shrink to "Open disc" let DVD Shrink do all the work then burn with Nero. Make sure that in "Edit" "Preferences" you "tick" Burn with Nero" under the" I/O tab'.
Recipe 2.
Use DVD Shrink as above except "un-tick" the "Burn with Nero" and when in "Backup", click "Create ISO and burn with DVD Decrypter.
Either of the above should work fine -
Quote:
And what the scoop with labels
I use labels and don't see anything wrong with it AS LONG AS YOU USE AN APPLICATOR. Attempting to apply a label by hand will only lead to probable unbalancing and possible damage to your drive and may render your DVD unplayable. If you don't mind writting upon your disc, Great! I like my discs to look like the original. The best way is a printable disc with a disc printer :) Second way, write the titles on wih a felt market and my way, I use NEATO labels and a Neato applicator.
Quote:
what is the difference between the DVD+ vs. the DVD-
a general explanation -
DVD-R-RW
Although some of this refers to the eraserable features it describes in full the type of recording format used in DVD (dash) R media.
DVD-R (which is pronounced "dash R" not "minus R") uses organic dye technology, like CD-R, and is compatible with most DVD drives and players. DVD -RW (formerly DVD-R/W and also briefly known as DVD-ER) is a phase-change erasable format. Developed by Pioneer based on DVD-R, using similar track pitch, mark length, and rotation control, DVD-RW is playable in many DVD drives and players.
DVD+R+RW,
Although some of this refers to the eraserable features it describes in full the type of recording format used in DVD (plus) R media.
DVD+RW backers claimed in 1997 that the format would be used only for computer data, not home video, but this was apparently a smokescreen intended to placate the DVD Forum and competitors.
The DVD+RW format uses phase-change media with a high-frequency wobbled groove that allows it to eliminate linking sectors. This, plus the option of no defect management, allows DVD+RW discs to be written in a way that is compatible with many existing DVD readers.
Which should you buy ?
There are two main formats: "dash" (DVD-R/RW) and "plus" (DVD+R/RW). There's not much difference between them. They both record data and video, and they both read back data and play back video. Both formats are available as recordable drives for computers and as home video recorders. In spite of claims that one format is more compatible with players and drives, both formats are similarly compatible. There are speed differences, but it's a game of leapfrog. One format will come out with faster write speeds, then the other one will match it or surpass it. In 2003, drives reached 8x speeds. 16x is the theoretical maximum, so both formats will soon hit the limit.
The DVD-RW and DVD+RW formats are both good for making DVD movies but are essentially engaged in a Beta versus VHS-type battle. The consumer market will ultimately determine which format wins or they end up combining into a single standard, but it is important to understand that neither is yet a universal standard. Another thing to note is that many DVD players won't play any kind of re-writable disk. Most of the newer players will play these kinds of disks, but if you have an older DVD player it may not. In general, the newer your DVD player, the more likely it is to play all the recordable formats. There are web sites like http://Apple.com, http://HomeMovie.com and http://DVDplusRW.org that list compatible players and formats, but these are not unabridged resources either. Use them as a general guide.
Source: http://dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#4.3
Cheers,
Pete
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Omikse
Newbie
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25. October 2004 @ 04:43 |
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Well Scuba in that case I have a DVD+R Burner and I need a good DVD+R Media and is hard to find. Could you give me some suggestions.
The Worlds First Backwards Eskimo
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ScubaPete
AfterDawn Addict
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25. October 2004 @ 16:51 |
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Omikse,
Quote:
I need a good DVD+R Media and is hard to find
Yep, there's Sony Verbatim DataLife, Verbatim DataLife Plus, RiData, Mawell, Phillips, TDK and Samsung - they shouldn't be all that hard to find -
Look in -
NewEgg, MertLine, SuperMediaStore -
Cheers,
Pete
Didn't want to mention it BUT at the beginning of this thread I wrote an entire post on DVD media but perhaps you never read this thread, maybe you just jumped in at the end - Ooohhh well, Go Figure - maybe I should order for you ?
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