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Fake Media- Why cant they fake MID and all numbers?
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Senior Member
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18. September 2005 @ 13:59 |
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I was just wondering why the knock-off companies couldn't do a complete fake including the MID code on the hub? They could still use their cheap dyes. I don't know enough about DVD manufacturing, but I suspect that one part of the DVD making process is easier to fake and cheaper to do than the other. I noticed Doc says the only way to tell if media is fake, is to physically check the MID code found on the media side of the disk near the inner hub. Couldn't that number be easily faked also? Then the only way to tell good media would be to run PIF scans and other media quality tests.
Maybe i am being too paranoid. For example; You run DVD Identifier and the code comes back as real TYs. You check MID code on the disk, and it comes up with a genuine Ty media id (which is just a set of numbers). Numbers can be faked/duplicated in any media. Why wouldn't the knock off company, who knows they are going to be selling fakes, make their lasers burn in a fake good media manufacturers code? I am sure it is just a setting on the machine that has a numerical dial going from 0-9 and/or A-Z, or some software program controlling the DVD making machine. Kinda like sticking a R.R. emblem on your VW Bug.
I could go Google this but I wouldn't get the right answer unless i sifted thru a lot of garbage. The people here on this forum are the best Google for DVD media questions imho. I know there are some real media info experts here. Expert knowledge is the one thing that can't be faked very well, but you see people try it every day.. :)
Die CMC Mag!!! |
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Senior Member
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18. September 2005 @ 17:37 |
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I just noticed kivory666 response to someone in another earlier thread;
Quote:
to clarify what alkohol stated very nicely, to be MORE precise, look for TG00xxxx (where the xxxx represent the batch number of when it was actually made, the xxxx will be numerical values, NOT letters)coding on the inner hub when u flip it over to check~ :)
these are the 8x DVD+R Taiyo Yudens, but, the media ID coding can easily be faked as i have some 8x DVD-R with almost IDENTICAL coding other than the fact it's TYG02 rather than the YUDEN000T02 coding, the manufacturer/company description is IDENTICAL to the scan you have above
@kivory666 (i already feel like calling you doc) if the MID came back on those fake tys as genuine TYs, how did you know they were fake? Was it in the packaging? Source? Lower than going rate cost?
here is the link to that thread:
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/233418
Die CMC Mag!!!
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AfterDawn Addict
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18. September 2005 @ 21:59 |
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@maxburn
hehe, the reason i KNOW my Fake TYs are FAKE is i found out the SOURCE for them, "made in taiwan" AND also, the inner hub numbers were NOT genuine~ :)
that's why i do not rely on the MID coding from various dvd identifying programs...to fake the software coding is NOT difficult to do, but, to actually FAKE the inner hub coding on GENUINE Taiyo Yudens is much more difficult. from what i have gathered, the inner hub coding on GENUINE TYs is "stamped" on, or "pressed" (much like the dvd movies you purchase in stores...these are factory "pressed" and are NOT burned onto a "blank disc" when making a backup)
i guess the subtle differences in the actual MANUFACTURING process could vary, 2ndly, i think the machines that Taiyo Yuden (in JAPAN) uses to produce their GENUINE Taiyo Yuden discs are very expensive and probably hard to replicate by other companies (im not saying it's impossible, but for a company to go OUT OF THEIR WAY to ONLY counterfeit Taiyo Yuden discs is a little extreme if you ask me, while it COULD be done, i don't think any company really wants to invest in the machinery and extra expenses to COPY Taiyo Yudens production process, especially since they will be pumping out less-than quality blanks discs with crappy dyes~)
while all of this is VERY possible to do, i think for the best interest of these companies that produce the low quality blanks, it is just not financially efficient or WISE to do~ they would incurr so much overhead cost to perfect a "perfect clone" of a genuine TY disc and that would be BEFORE they even attempt to market the discs to the consumer and WHO KNOWS how well they will sell? will they make their money back on their "investment" of Taiyo Yuden copying equipment? i doubt it~ :)
after all is said and done, companies that manufacturer blank media is only out for 1 thing...PROFIT-$$$, why do you think a ONCE reputable company like Memorex (in terms of media quality) has gone down the toilet?? it's BECAUSE they CHOOSE to go with CMC MAG crap manufacturing company for their branded discs as im SURE they gave them the BEST/LOWEST price of production...
memorex purchases CHEAP, INEXPENSIVE discs from CMC MAG, turn around and sell it retail for the SAME price as other competing companies/brands that are actually GOOD, such as Sony/Fuji/Maxell/Verbatim, etc...but, make a KILLING in their profit margins as they purchased in BULK from crappy a$$ CMC MAG manufacturer and the general consumer doesn't know any better....
who will be the next company that outsources to crappy CMC MAG for their future discs? i have no idea...but, when that day comes...trust me, i will speak LOWLY of said company in the same manner as i speak of MEMOSUX at this point in time... ANY company that uses CMC MAG as their supplier, IN MY OPINION, isn't even worth the gas money it takes me to get to a retail store, let alone the $$ i will pay for their media~
stick with the good stuff (as in my sig) and you should have no problems, but, you did bring up an interesting point in this thread...we all live and learn from experience, glad you have seen the light before it gets any MORE confusing...hehe...
p.s. i don't mind you calling me Doc~ :) i AM a M.D., so, if the shoe fits... :) have a good one~
Recommended Media:
Taiyo Yuden 4x dvd-r TYGO1/ 8x dvd-r TYGO2/ 8x dvd+r YUDEN000T02/ 16x dvd+r YUDEN000T03
Verbatim 8x dvd+r MCC003
Verbatim dvd+r DL (MKM001)= flawless no compression backups
"Do Yourself A Favor, Use The Good Stuff
TY & Verbs 4 Life~ :)" ~docTY~
"Its better to be quiet and appear stupid, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
I am always prepared to recognize that there can be two points of view - mine and one that is probably wrong - John Gorton
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Senior Member
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19. September 2005 @ 00:25 |
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Thanks Doc you have educated me and any/all who read this once again. It is good to know there is a perfect way to check for fakes, and that the knock-off companies don't fake it for what ever reason (i suspect it is cost also). I didn't think any law was going to stop them. I didn't know the blanks were pressed on, I thought it might have been spun on and the resulting mix then laser burned to give a MID.
The machines they use is also a very logical conclusion, as good companies seem to use the best equipment to make things and cheap compaines only care about making top $ at any cost (usually quality), and will buy the cheapest equipment and materials, all with the intent of ripping us off from our hard earned money.
Hey if nothing else we could get a bunch of AD members to camp outside the Ty and Verbatim factories and tell us where the shipments are heading, so we can get ahead of the ignorent masses and grab the good stuff off the shelves. Let them have Memosux.. they seem to love it. :) I always trusted the opinions here over that of cdfreaks. You guys put forth a much more scientific and reasoned response as to why you think a particular brand of media is crap. And to all you memorex lovers out there who refuse to listen to the voice of wisdom spoken here, i really hope you got a good batch of crap media and your movies/data survives, but you are really stacking the deck against yourself in my opinion. So you saved .25 cents a disk compaired to using known good media. How much will it cost you when you loose that movie and have to replace it? or maybe can never replace it? Probably way much more than .25 cents.
Sorry to all the AD regulars. That last part was only ment for the bad media lovers lurking out there.. I can feel them. Ready to defend their brand of crap and trying to tell us all that they have gold at lead prices.. I will admit I have some CMC Mag media that seems to be ok for now, burnt well and everything, but I am backing them up to TYs faster than you can say burn baby burn.. well maybe not that fast, but you get the idea.
I will get my Tys from a reputable dealer and even then i am going to be looking closely at the packaging and checking out that MID on the disk before i loose the reciept. CMC-mag = instant return and refund in my mind. I think the companies that hide CMC mag under their label should pay us all for pain, suffering, and mental anguish!
Die CMC Mag!!!
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Moderator
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19. September 2005 @ 00:48 |
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Great thread, as someone's who is always in the thick of "pain, suffering and mental anguish", well endless logfiles anyway, I'd often wondered about the hub codes..
I don't hang out on cdfreaks too often but whenever I do I see very different opinions re CMC, I do think that's due to us here seeing so many problems with CMC in the thick of things. I myself trawl (seemingly endlessly - I've been thru literally 1000s in my time here) thru ppl's system setups/logfiles and nearly everytime we've done that, the only thing left are the CMC discs, which sit there (the discs I mean) shuffling their little 'CMC Mag' codes saying it's not me guvner!..
Strange how we don't see endless logfiles with decent quality media being the culprit after all the proverbial firmware etc tweaks have been done. Ah well, keeps us all busy, I think the longest I've gone without seeing bad media was two, maybe three days. Good day all, may the burn be with you :)
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AfterDawn Addict
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19. September 2005 @ 00:59 |
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:)
very nicely spoken once again Maxburn~ :) i really do appreciate your input as well and i think ALL the others that read this thread of yours should follow your advice as well~
in terms of HOW dvd media is manufactured, i think my wording on it was a little vague, you are right in HOW it is produced...first the plastic is laid down, 2ndly the metal reflective foil, 3rdly the actual "dye" is poured over ontop of the foil layer. next, a 2nd layer of plastic is laid on top of THAT, then as you said, the disc is spun at VERY high speeds to spread out the actual DYE layer~ :)
but, with companies like CMC MAG producing/duplicating this seemingly "simple straight-forward" procedure, this is where they go horribly wrong, CMC MAG is NOTORIOUSLY KNOWN for their "bad-inner disc spread" (which means dye thinning) and for using a lesser quality based "dye" itself...i mean c'mon now, how many different quality "plastic layers" and "foil layers" can the companies have? the DYE portion of the dvd media is the IMPORTANT aspect of good, reliable media~ :)
i think my explanation of how a dvd blank is produced was unclear in my above post, i did not mean that a blank disc was "pressed" like the hollywood movies are today, the structure of a blank disc and a "hollywood movie" dvd are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. what i mean to get across was that the inner hub coding that you asked me about...only THAT coding is pressed on (which i believe is machine specific, i have spoken briefly with my Taiyo Yuden rep. and they told me that the genuine TY coding (ie. GG001234, GD001234, TG001234, etc.) was actually done by a MACHINE, as if it was laser inscribed specifically by the machine they used at the Taiyo Yuden factory. (this process was AUTOMATIC with the TY machines, this inscription was to help determine WHEN and HOW these particular batches were made- ie. the batch number the lower the number, the older it is and the same holds true if the number is higher, they are more recently manufactured. this helps TY "keep track" of their manufacturing as they could sort things out by batch number if a lot of consumers reported a "bad batch", TY could then go back and get the machines specifications/dye settings/manufacturing details of said batch and take necessary action there if there were a batch of discs produced that were not up to Taiyo Yuden standards)
as with all the coding on GENUINE TY discs, i've always told people that they ALL begin with either the GG, GD, TG, etc as the first 2 letters ( this signifies the rated speed and FORMAT of the disc whether it be 4x DVD-R for the GD, 8x DVD-R for the GG, and 8x DVD+R for the TG and so on and so on)...the numbers that follow the 2 letter beginning is the batch number, most TY discs people get today were produced a little earlier this year or last year, heck or even the year before that and they are STILL being sold at various online and retail outlets. for example, on my 4x DVD-R "VALUE DISCS" TYs from supermediastore that i purchased thousands of, my batch number reads like this: GD000267 (notice the GD beginning is there followed by the batch number, which in THIS case, would be 267; members that have purchased a newer batch of the more recently produced 4x DVD-R TY discs may have something along the lines of GD001234, where 1234 would be the batch number)
this holds true also for the 8x rated Taiyo Yudens, the only difference is the "batch number" that follows the GG or the TG (in the DVD-R and DVD+R format respectively)
whew~ anyways, hope that clarifies a little what i had stated earlier, i wanted to make CLEAR that the hollywood "pressed" movies are NOT MADE THE SAME WAY, structurally, to that of blank dvd media~ :)
you've been a great member here on AD Maxburn and i thank YOU for your contributions you have made here~
docTY out for tonight~ may the TY force be with you~!
Recommended Media:
Taiyo Yuden 4x dvd-r TYGO1/ 8x dvd-r TYGO2/ 8x dvd+r YUDEN000T02/ 16x dvd+r YUDEN000T03
Verbatim 8x dvd+r MCC003
Verbatim dvd+r DL (MKM001)= flawless no compression backups
"Do Yourself A Favor, Use The Good Stuff
TY & Verbs 4 Life~ :)" ~docTY~
"Its better to be quiet and appear stupid, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
I am always prepared to recognize that there can be two points of view - mine and one that is probably wrong - John Gorton
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Senior Member
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19. September 2005 @ 20:32 |
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@kivory666
Once again doc you are a wealth of information. But really you and the other greats here, too many to list all, are the ones who educated/inspired me. I read way too many posts where someone came on and said how they were having problems which turned out to be media. and you guys would finally get your point across to the bad media lover.. (except that one who knew he bought fake tys and still wouldn't listen to reason, ) It is almost like going thru a root canal operation with no pain killers.. I really don't know how you do it day after day and week after week. But, it really does feel good to get a new convert to the good media side.
Die CMC Mag!!!
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AfterDawn Addict
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20. September 2005 @ 00:52 |
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@ Maxburn
thank you so much for your kind words, it's people like you that actually keep me going and continue to help here on AfterDawn~ :)
the bad media lovers, as you stated, will NEVER admit that it's the media being the problem, no matter how we ALL try to "convert" them, it's sometimes a very formidable task, i've seen people go out and buy a new drive, buy a new computer even!, JUST to satisfy their stance that media is NOT the culprit~ :)
it's funny how some people can be so stubborn and will not just simply admit that their choice of media (purchased and used) is THE ONLY problem that they NEED to concern themselves with; they will find excuses for everything else in the book to try to remedy the problem...why spend $40-$130 for a new burner? why spend a few hundred to a few THOUSAND dollars for a new computer? all it takes sometimes is $20, to get yourself a 50 pack spindle of "the good stuff" ie. Taiyo Yuden/Verbatim and that will be the end of your burning issues and playback problems. most people that are "new" to burning pick up very quickly as to the process of burning, what steps are required, and after reading all the great guides here on AD, can usually get a good grasp of HOW to use programs such as dvd shrink, dvd decrypter, nero, etc.etc.
a few "tweaking" hints here and there (updated firmware, burn @ 4x for less chance of errors, booktype if possible dvd+r to dvd-rom) will usually get a person off on the right foot once they know the steps it takes to use the above mentioned programs. this is just fine tuning your computer/drive for the actual burning process.
and the FINAL step (which is VERY important to the end resulting dvd backup) is CHOICE OF MEDIA~ use good media and things should be a breeze, use crap media- read as CMC MAG manufactured crap and that is where the problems begin...
i personally feel very blessed to have you join the AD community, i've become friends with quite a few of the "regulars" in this dvd-media forum and i trust their judgements and opinions; i too learn something new from time to time...
welcome to the family Maxburn and i hope you will enjoy your daily visits and stay here, you have earned MY respect and i wish you a good day~ :)
Recommended Media:
Taiyo Yuden 4x dvd-r TYGO1/ 8x dvd-r TYGO2/ 8x dvd+r YUDEN000T02/ 16x dvd+r YUDEN000T03
Verbatim 8x dvd+r MCC003
Verbatim dvd+r DL (MKM001)= flawless no compression backups
"Do Yourself A Favor, Use The Good Stuff
TY & Verbs 4 Life~ :)" ~docTY~
"Its better to be quiet and appear stupid, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
I am always prepared to recognize that there can be two points of view - mine and one that is probably wrong - John Gorton
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 20. September 2005 @ 00:54
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