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what makes bad media bad?
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Junior Member
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9. October 2005 @ 18:46 |
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Why does some media work better than others? What's the difference?
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AfterDawn Addict
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9. October 2005 @ 19:34 |
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the difference is in the QUALITY of dye that various manufacturers use to produce the discs~ the ones using the AZO dye, for instance, Taiyo Yuden and Verbatim, this dye is MUCH better as a recording surface than the other companies who just use a lesser quality dye. :)
while MOST manufacturers stick to the same PROCESS in manufacturing dvd media, the bottom line comes down to the DYE itself, and it's quality...secondly, you have to know the QUALITY CONTROL from various manufacturers, i know first hand that Taiyo Yuden has VERY high standards and are very strick on ALL the media they produce have to pass before they are sold on the market...these smaller/"shady" manufacturers only care about $$$ and don't really have such a stringent quality control center~
hope that clarifies a bit for you.
docTY~
Recommended Media:
Taiyo Yuden 4x dvd-r TYGO1/ 8x dvd-r TYGO2/ 8x dvd+r YUDEN000T02/ 16x dvd+r YUDEN000T03
Verbatim 8x dvd+r MCC003
Verbatim dvd+r DL (MKM001)= flawless no compression backups
"Do Yourself A Favor, Use The Good Stuff
TY & Verbs 4 Life~ :)" ~docTY~
"Its better to be quiet and appear stupid, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
I am always prepared to recognize that there can be two points of view - mine and one that is probably wrong - John Gorton
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AfterDawn Addict
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10. October 2005 @ 05:38 |
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Kivory666 covered the dye part. There's another thing about your question:
It usually comes down to firmware for dvd drives. This firmware is the programming for them to operate.
Each spindle/pack size of media has an MID code. This code is read by the burner's firmware and it tells that burner: How fast/how slow/what increments of burning/or it may be off the list entirely so it makes it unburnable.
Firmware is up to the manufacturers recommendations. They have media tested,usually newer media with faster speeds, and they go through those newer discs and recommend how fast to burn it.Some may perform so poorly,that they'll leave that MID code off for the next update.After gathering this info,each dvd drive manufacturer compiles a list of those codes to how to burn them,and issue updated firmware.Some not so quick as others,especially on older drives.
This is why you get the usual question: My buddy burns these discs perfect,but my burner won't burn them. It's all about firmware.
Some burners do favor the one format or another.They'll even prefer a certain brand name..You have to find the media[MID code} that your burner and stand alones like/stick with it/ and forget about what everybody else says.
I listed the usual firmware mumbo jumbo,but how does that come into play?
This is where the different manufacturers of media come in.You have brand names like maxell/memosux/TDK/sony/fuji/Taiyo yuden/verbatim/Phillips/and the brands go on endlessly. Majority of those brand names outsource their media to the lowest cost manufacturer.That's where the quality control comes in.Memosux is a great example for both plus and dash format on some crappy manufacturers like cmags. TDK uses some crappy ones on their plus format,but their dash is decent. Phillips,teon,imation,nex tech,majority of store brand names: Don't even bother. Usually complete crappola,with the exception of Office Depot brand media.The OD brand are riteks.
Take maxell.Their dash 4x yellowtops are made by: taiyo yuden/hitachi/ritek/and cmags.That's 4 different MID codes and a huge quality difference between the cmags and tys and they are in the exact same yellow top disc.Now cmags are being reported in the maxell dash 8x gold tops.Ritek and Hitachi also make the exact/identical gold tops.
Dvd burners should be able to play it's own backups using that drive on the pc that burned it.Where the media comes in is on your stand alone players/ps2/xbox/and pc drives.The crappy media will give those drive fits.You'll notice it on playback with the freezing/jumping/skipping/and no disc inserted errors.You can adjust some things for those issues,but the quality media prevents the majority of them.
If you purchase media over the net,get the verbatim data life plus/genuine tys/and genuine riteks.
Genuine? Yep,the good quality media can be faked. Lots of fake tys out there.Stick with a reputatable web site.
If purchasing media locally like I do: Look for Made in Japan on those shrink wrappers and labels. You can get some great deals when the maxells/fuji/and sony go on sale.Usually many hitachi/tys are in those brands that are made in japan. 30 cents apiece for fuji tys on my last batch at staples last week!
HP a1118x-b/athlon 64-3300+/BenQ 1650 BCDC/LG 8163B/Modded Wii/Epson-R300 and Ty Watershields!!! |
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GregRod
Member
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10. October 2005 @ 09:18 |
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Imations use AZO Dye and many people have had good experiences with these even though they are made by CMC Mag.
I agree with teons, phillips, nexx texx, and memorex. Many bad stories with these.
Greg
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AfterDawn Addict
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10. October 2005 @ 10:19 |
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@Nastajus,
All you need to do is go with high quality media and remember to update your dvd burner's firmware when needed and you should be all square away. High quality media are genuine Taiyo Yuden (authentic Yuden media can be found on the 8X DVD+R Fuji & Sony "Made In Japan"), Verbatim (MCC003 & MCC004), Maxell "Made In Japan" and the Ritek. Other than what I've mentioned, all you got to do now is to stay far away from them.
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Senior Member
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10. October 2005 @ 11:15 |
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Some good points made here guys, I was also wondering the same questions!
Jin666
Proud Member of Afterdawn Forums..!
Current PSP Life: 2.50 > 3.03 > 3.03 HEN > 1.50 > 3.40 OE-A > 1.50 > 3.03 OE-C ! |
AfterDawn Addict
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10. October 2005 @ 16:46 |
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@gregrod
so, i assume YOU are one of those "many people" that have had good experiences with the Imations right? despite being manufactured by CMC MAG, YOU have had success with that brand that YOU purchased...?
well, i will never argue with someone's OWN choice of media and their success with them, but, to offer Imation as a suggestion for GOOD quality media, not a chance :) that is FAR from the truth...
docTY
Recommended Media:
Taiyo Yuden 4x dvd-r TYGO1/ 8x dvd-r TYGO2/ 8x dvd+r YUDEN000T02/ 16x dvd+r YUDEN000T03
Verbatim 8x dvd+r MCC003
Verbatim dvd+r DL (MKM001)= flawless no compression backups
"Do Yourself A Favor, Use The Good Stuff
TY & Verbs 4 Life~ :)" ~docTY~
"Its better to be quiet and appear stupid, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
I am always prepared to recognize that there can be two points of view - mine and one that is probably wrong - John Gorton
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Moderator
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10. October 2005 @ 23:40 |
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@kivory666, thanks; i was tempted to comment but i always get baited too easily so left it this time..
Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules *** |
AfterDawn Addict
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11. October 2005 @ 00:46 |
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people can try to "bait me" all they want, if they want to argue with me about how IMATION CMC MAGs are GOOD QUALITY MEDIA, i have PLENTY OF RESOURCES to prove how they are soooooo wrong~ :)
for one, i HAVE had experience with IMATION media, so, from PERSONAL usage, i can tell you that this crap is right there with the Memosux CMC MAG crap that i complain about so often :)
if people want proof, i can post that up ANYTIME...want Nero PI/PIF proof or would people like a K-probe reading? how about a dvdinfo pro reading? take your pick...i have FACTS to back up what i post here on AD for other members/readers to evaluate if need be...
ok, didn't mean to rant and i'm NOT directing ANY hostility towards you gregrod, i simply just wanted to reiterate that recommending CRAP media even as a suggestion to others is not a good idea~ :) i only offer my assistance and help to those that are willing to listen and to save a LOT of headache and unecessary stress/$$ in the future~ :)
good day to you all~
docHoliday~ :) (new name courtesy of ddp & darthnip) LOL
Recommended Media:
Taiyo Yuden 4x dvd-r TYGO1/ 8x dvd-r TYGO2/ 8x dvd+r YUDEN000T02/ 16x dvd+r YUDEN000T03
Verbatim 8x dvd+r MCC003
Verbatim dvd+r DL (MKM001)= flawless no compression backups
"Do Yourself A Favor, Use The Good Stuff
TY & Verbs 4 Life~ :)" ~docTY~
"Its better to be quiet and appear stupid, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
I am always prepared to recognize that there can be two points of view - mine and one that is probably wrong - John Gorton
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Senior Member
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11. October 2005 @ 10:54 |
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Hi there,
If you shop for Media like you shop for condoms, you will be OK.
Would you buy the cheapest condoms you could find ?
NO, then don't buy MEMOSUX Media (CMC Mags) period :)
VSO Software Golden Membership Proud Owner / VSO Software Beta Tester
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Moderator
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11. October 2005 @ 11:19 |
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Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 11. October 2005 @ 11:29
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Junior Member
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13. October 2005 @ 21:59 |
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I'm sitting here, trying to figure out how horrible media can possibly continue to sell. The only conclusion I can come to is they all must at least work for data when used in computer drives. And stand alone video players are just a lot more stringent. Does that sound right?
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Moderator
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13. October 2005 @ 22:16 |
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'fraid it's all about greed/competition, big companies making enough money to not give a ****.
Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***
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Monster18
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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13. October 2005 @ 22:30 |
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kivory666,
Imations are bad for dvd movies and data???/ Or only dvd movies only?
Sunny
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Moderator
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13. October 2005 @ 22:49 |
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@Monster18 - at risk of further debates from others re Imation media, some Imation may be fine for data, however in my own personal experience, i have this snippet from here - http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/195438 -
Quote:
Oh and Imation are crap too, really crap. I'v been 'burnt' by them and so has a colleague for work-related data burns. Due to errors on the discs, he always CRC checks them on one or 2 of our Unix servers which generates loads and loads of errors on the syslogs. To get around this he makes 2 or more likely 3 exact copies of each dataset (all done at 1x or 2x), and all give different errors. I think he's only made one or 2 error-free discs on Imation and he's been doing this a year or 2 over untold 100s of Imation discs.. Which reminds me, i gave him a Verb 8x disc to try to prove to the boss that they need to stop putting our customers' data at risk on those Imation discs. Must chase him to use it so i can PIF scan the resultant burn.
EDIT- i updated the first link in my signature with a PIF scan of the Verbatim disc that he used, but the Imation disc was unreadble in both of my drives so it got binned.
- now this would appear to generalise ALL Imation, which is't the intention.
here's an example of what you can get with the lower speed Imations -
Imation DVD+R 2.4x (RICOHJPNR00)
Imation DVD+R 4x (CMC MAG.F01)
Imation DVD+R 4x (RICOHJPNR01)
Imation DVD+RW 2.4x (CMC MAG.W01)
Imation DVD+RW 2.4x (RICOHJPNW01)
Imation DVD+RW 4x (RICOHJPNW11)
Imation DVD-R 1x (RITEKG03....)
Imation DVD-RW 1x (OPTODISCK001)
see especially this bit -
Imation DVD+R 4x (CMC MAG.F01)
Imation DVD+R 4x (RICOHJPNR01)
- with those 4x +R you would either get decent (RicohJPN which i believe are Maxell made in Taiwan) or atrocious (CMC).
the higher speed discs are the same as to differing quality manufacturers. in fact just did a quick check -
for the 8x discs -
DVD-R 4.7GB CMC MAG. AE1
DVD-R 4.7GB FUJIFILM03..
DVD-R 4.7GB ProdiscS04
- only Fuji are the decent ones there, 2 out of those 3 are subpar
DVD+R 4.7GB CMC MAG.E01
DVD+R 4.7GB MBIPG101R04
DVD+R 4.7GB PRODISC.R03
DVD+R 4.7GB RICOHJPNR02
- only Ricoh are the decent ones there, 3 out of those 4 are subpar
- My point (as always) with companies such as Imation, is they use widely differing quality in disc manufacturer, by just picking up a pack of discs of a particular speed/format, ie 8x +R you have a 1 in 4 chance of getting decent media, the other 3 are bad, but you most likely won't be able to tell just by looking at the packaging of the discs
Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. October 2005 @ 00:02
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AfterDawn Addict
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14. October 2005 @ 00:48 |
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@monster18
well, looks like my buddy creaky actually answered on my behalf~ well stated my friend~ :)
due to the various manufacturers that Imation uses, it's a "luck-of-the-draw" as to which you will actually get when you take it home and open it up~ creaky's recommendations for media is right on the money for those Imations~ he's a fast lil bugger isn't he? LOL
docTY~
Recommended Media:
Taiyo Yuden 4x dvd-r TYGO1/ 8x dvd-r TYGO2/ 8x dvd+r YUDEN000T02/ 16x dvd+r YUDEN000T03
Verbatim 8x dvd+r MCC003
Verbatim dvd+r DL (MKM001)= flawless no compression backups
"Do Yourself A Favor, Use The Good Stuff
TY & Verbs 4 Life~ :)" ~docTY~
"Its better to be quiet and appear stupid, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
I am always prepared to recognize that there can be two points of view - mine and one that is probably wrong - John Gorton
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Moderator
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14. October 2005 @ 00:58 |
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cheers, i was just on a bad media roll, collating some evidence for 'that other' thread. Thought this one was in need of a balanced view re Imation while it was on my mind..
Main PC ~ Intel C2Q Q6600 (G0 Stepping)/Gigabyte GA-EP45-DS3/2GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec 900/Corsair HX 620W
Network ~ DD-WRT ~ 2node WDS-WPA2/AES ~ Buffalo WHR-G54S. 3node WPA2/AES ~ WRT54GS v6 (inc. WEP BSSID), WRT54G v2, WRT54G2 v1. *** Forum Rules ***
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AfterDawn Addict
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14. October 2005 @ 01:03 |
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Quote:
If you shop for Media like you shop for condoms, you will be OK.
Would you buy the cheapest condoms you could find ?
Lol, I like this one.
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AfterDawn Addict
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14. October 2005 @ 01:21 |
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man, if condoms had the failure rate of CMC MAG produced discs, there would be a LOT more babies in the world...UNPLANNED ones~ :) LOL
QUALITY CONTROL guys~!! it's all about the QUALITY CONTROL!
docTY~
my analogy of CMC MAG discs to condoms would be like comparing Grade A factory fresh certified discs Taiyo Yuden/Trojans to Grade C, "bad batch" factory rejects, "you know you gonna get pregnant if you use these" CMC MAG/condoms~ :)
Recommended Media:
Taiyo Yuden 4x dvd-r TYGO1/ 8x dvd-r TYGO2/ 8x dvd+r YUDEN000T02/ 16x dvd+r YUDEN000T03
Verbatim 8x dvd+r MCC003
Verbatim dvd+r DL (MKM001)= flawless no compression backups
"Do Yourself A Favor, Use The Good Stuff
TY & Verbs 4 Life~ :)" ~docTY~
"Its better to be quiet and appear stupid, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
I am always prepared to recognize that there can be two points of view - mine and one that is probably wrong - John Gorton
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Senior Member
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14. October 2005 @ 01:27 |
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lol great analogy, kivory666
My DVD Arsenal: BenQ DW1650 Drive, Plextor DVDRW PX-740A Drive, Nero 6.6.0.13, AnyDVD 6.1.8.4, CloneDVD2 2.9.1.2, DVD Shrink 3.2, DVD Decrypter 3.5.4.0, DVDFab HD Decrypter 3.2.1.0, VobBlanker 2.1.3.0, RipIt4Me 1.7.1.0, FixVTS 1.6.0.3
Proud PS3 owner! PS3 games currently owned: Fight Night Round 3, Heavenly Sword, Madden 07, Marvel Ultimate Alliance, Motorstorm, NHL 07, Resistance: Fall Of Man, Tony Hawk's Project 8 |
Junior Member
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14. October 2005 @ 08:51 |
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Not to detract from the Imation conversation, but, I was wondering if we could talk a little more about my question. :) (substituting Smiley for lack of precise words)
Do the discs that don't play (bad disc, skipping, freezing) in stand-alone players usually work in computers?
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AfterDawn Addict
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14. October 2005 @ 11:26 |
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Quote:
I can come to is they all must at least work for data when used in computer drives. And stand alone video players are just a lot more stringent. Does that sound right?
You are correct!
Data is easier on media.no compression that I know of!
Now when you backup original dvds, taking 6-7 gigs and compressing it to 4.38 gigs is excruciating on the media.That is just 1 part of what media quality does.The poorer stuff will have problems when given extreme compression along with trying to burn too much onto the disc and also too fast.Burning too much on that media means the outer edge of the disc is burned.A reduced burn speed/and/or a reduced backup target may be needed.Uneven dye is the blame.
Quote:
Do the discs that don't play (bad disc, skipping, freezing) in stand-alone players usually work in computers?
Every burner should be able to play it's own backups.If they don't,media quality is usually the problem. Those backups when viewed on your pc using powerdvd or windvd,when played on the DVD-RW drive that burned them,should look near perfect.No skipping,pausing,jumping.They must play their own backups!!!!!!
Not many peeps view those backups on their pc,that is where the stand alone players/game consoles/and other pc drives come in.They are all different when it comes to reading and playing backups on plus or dash media.Some can be picky and may play the plus/dash/both/or none of your backups. Some prefer a slower burn speed. Again,media quality comes in.Those stand alones are also sensitive to all the different burners.Every laser is different between every dvd drive regardless if it is a pc dvd-rom/dvd-rw/or a regular stand alone dvd-rom drive. Some of these drives are stronger and some are weeker.That's why some media is better on certain drives,while horrible in other drives.
Just search these forums for members having trouble playing backups in their stand alones. There's literally dozens of new posts of them every day!
Quality media can rule out many of those issues.It's the first thing to change when you run into problems.It's the first thing we ask!
I ran into freezing on my sony dvp-ns325,and after reviewing those backups on my benq,they looked flawless.I verified them by playing on other drives and they were perfect.
Result:I cleaned that stand alones laser and it helped some,but not 100%.This was taiyo yuden media.I replaced that player and issue resolved!
Freezing/skipping/jumping are just playback problems and usually easy to take care of.Now when you get the No Disc Inserted errors,that's another ball game. Media quality again is the first thing to change.These no disc errors for me,using quality media,means I have a compatability issue.My stand alone just does not like a certain format of some of my burners.It plays anything off my benqs,but those other burners no so fortunant.
Again,quality media was ruled out,backups played flawless on the pc using that burner to play it.Ended up replacing that DVD-RW drive for another benq 1620 and no more compatability or playback issues!
I fixed that no disc inserted errors that I got from 3 other burners very easily-By pulling them and putting them in their original boxes! New benq burner,and booktyping the plus format to dvd-rom:compatability issue resolved. Stand alones have an easier time with dvd-rom because it is the universal format for all dvd-drives!
Sorry for the long post.When it comes to quality media and all the many/many issues of backing up dvds and all the variations among lasers: quality media along with a quality burner is a must.
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Junior Member
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15. October 2005 @ 15:14 |
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Data is easier on media.no compression that I know of! Wait hold on. When data is compressed, it's still one's and zero's, or depressions and flat surfaces left by the laser. A highly compressed ZIP file should still be read just as redily as uncompressed files. I think I'm right.
Or, do you mean as there's less data, it's more difficult for the device to work around missing pieces? The more you compress it, the less chance there is of recovering from a skip or freeze because of a scratch or dust?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 15. October 2005 @ 15:27
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AfterDawn Addict
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15. October 2005 @ 16:08 |
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I don't do a whole of data backups.Mainly backing up my original dvds, my OS, and cds. None of them were compressed.
Many people get the crappy media, It may not work for dvd backups,but data backups is usually ok.You still have the longevity factor of the dye.
Critical data like my OS, I wouldn't even dare to use crappy media.I'm very anal when it comes to playback.I even pulled out the original hp640c lightscribe and replaced it with my benq 1620 just to make sure I had the best burned backups possible.That hp writer had too many errors for me to keep it on my pc.
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Junior Member
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20. April 2006 @ 17:30 |
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Thankyou everyone for your specific clear details that exactly answered my question. I keep coming back to this thread to read it in pieces until I understand it (sigh, je suis lę newb)
saugmon, I wanted to let you know I found this helpful too for explaining the MID code http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Identification_Code . While your explanation is precise, it was too many words for me back then. :)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 20. April 2006 @ 17:31
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