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what makes bad media bad?
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Junior Member
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20. April 2006 @ 17:40 |
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I feel like I'm making excellent progress in understanding the analogy. I think the following question is the last step:
Quote:
You are correct!
Data is easier on media.no compression that I know of!
When I'm encoding it's like zipping. Both are terms for compressing data. The only thing that's different is the DVD players plays this data directly from a compressed state; NOT like .zip files, which are unzipped and then used.
Is THAT correct?
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Member
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21. April 2006 @ 07:28 |
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Quote:
I'm sitting here, trying to figure out how horrible media can possibly continue to sell. The only conclusion I can come to is they all must at least work for data when used in computer drives. And stand alone video players are just a lot more stringent. Does that sound right?
brands like memorex continue to sell because its a well known brand...and you can get it almost anywhere, and its almost always on sale...most people don't really scan their media and check the quality. So people just keep buying them because it works? Or they keep buying memosux till they start having problems.
BENQ 1620 / 1650
Pioneer 111L
Vobblanker/DVDRebuilder
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daman1
Senior Member
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21. April 2006 @ 08:07 |
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Quote:
man, if condoms had the failure rate of CMC MAG produced discs, there would be a LOT more babies in the world...UNPLANNED ones~ :) LOL
QUALITY CONTROL guys~!! it's all about the QUALITY CONTROL
So Doc we just need to figure out how to use TY's for condoms
then we'll be all set....LOL!!!!
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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24. April 2006 @ 13:28 |
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Dye is the first thing people offer as a quality criterion. It is not. Dyes can be azo-cyanine, cyanine, metal chelate, or oxonol and still work very well as long as the dye is uniform, consistent, precisely the right thickness with the exact load factor (ratio of dye to solvent). Firmware has NOTHING to do with disc quality. It has a great deal to do with the quality of the recording and its compatibility with the dye, and many people (particularly those who castigate certain brands) get the two confused. More important than the dye is the substrate(s). The plastic has to be free of birefringence and perfectly bowed so that when the bonding agent cures it contracts the DVD disc to perfect flatness. There are over 70 different test parameters for DVDs, and all are part of the quality of the disc. Discs that play best in most equipment generally have low PIE (parity inner errors on the error correction matrix), few if any POF (parity errors on the outer grid of the error correction matrix that lead to the player's extrapolating data), and low jitter. Jitter is directly related to dye; the other types of problems can be due to any of the other test parameters.
There are scores of web sites that discuss optical discs. Most of them are commercially misleading, erroneous, incomplete, or just plain goofy. There are a few that are worthwhile if you truly want to learn more about optical discs. Some of the best I've found are:
http://www.mscience.com/
For discussions about the importance of quality, how to test for it, and interpreting the test data.
http://eta-optik.com/fix/index-company.htm
For great white papers on manufacturing of optical media and the importance of the test factors.
http://www.memorex.com/html/white_papers_one.php?WP_SID=1
No matter what you think about Memorex, their Reference Guide to Optical Media is the most complete coverage of discs. It should be required reading for all members of AfterDawn.
There is a reference to NIST's "Care and Handling" of optical discs on this web site, but even that has a lot of mistakes in it. ("A couple of decades of life for magnetic tape data" doesn't explain how the 3M master from the 1950's are in perfect shape or how BASF's first tape 70 years ago still plays. And only DVD-RAM discs have dielectric layers although the diagram NIST shows appears to apply to all rewritable discs. Reading through just two of the above three sites will make you an "expert" in disc technology.
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AfterDawn Addict
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24. April 2006 @ 13:57 |
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@JoeRyan
while i am not here to argue with you and admit you have a LOT more TECHNICAL knowledge about dvd production and optical media and such than me, but i can assure you i have much MORE EXPERIENCE in burning than you with various drives/media~
we are ALL welcome to anyone's OPINION about whichever media, brand, or manufacturer; just curious as to WHY you consistently INSIST that it's NEVER/RARELY the media that is at fault? but rather a compatibility problem with the drives people have? be it the firmware does not have the proper MID tables to recognize such media...etc..etc..
while i respect your contributions here regarding the TECHNICAL aspect of optical media, are you seriously going to tell EVERYONE that has a problem here that needs to have issues resolved that it's NOT the media, but rather an "incompatibility" with the drive they are currently using or a lack of updated firmware?
both creaky and i have had NUMEROUS experiences here on AfterDawn where we HAVE been able to resolve burning issues on people's setups after a few "tweaks" and "fixes" in the burning application and setup process...ONLY to change media and they were back up and running again...what does this prove you may ask? well, for the avg. person who is NOW back to burning again it proves a LOT...honestly, people could care less HOW the optical media is made and what expensive 1/2 million dollar equipment is needed to ACCURATELY test an optical disc's integrity/quality~ and MOST people don't have the patience NOR the money to go out and buy what you would refer to as a "compatible drive" just so they can use CMC-MAG or other media that is NOT touted as being "good quality" around here~
as i mentioned earlier, i respect your DEEP knowledge about every detail about the dvd manufacturing process, but for the avg. person who comes here looking for a "fix" to their current burning dilemna; i among MANY others who DO HAVE A LOT of EXPERIENCE under our belts with MANY various medias available to us will continue to recommend "good quality media" as a POSSIBLE inexpensive fix to their burning woes, however deluded MY perspective on this might be to you, i've gotten people back to burning again COUNTLESS times in the past, with simple-anybody-can-follow-directions with their setup and CHANGE of media~ :)
good day to you, much like you, we ALL have our own reasons to help and contribute to this site...my reward is getting people back up and burning again...what is your agenda if i may ask?
docTY~
Recommended Media:
Taiyo Yuden 4x dvd-r TYGO1/ 8x dvd-r TYGO2/ 8x dvd+r YUDEN000T02/ 16x dvd+r YUDEN000T03
Verbatim 8x dvd+r MCC003
Verbatim dvd+r DL (MKM001)= flawless no compression backups
"Do Yourself A Favor, Use The Good Stuff
TY & Verbs 4 Life~ :)" ~docTY~
"Its better to be quiet and appear stupid, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
I am always prepared to recognize that there can be two points of view - mine and one that is probably wrong - John Gorton
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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24. April 2006 @ 16:11 |
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Hi Doc,
In the last ten years I suspect I have recorded 60,000 discs starting with a Kodak 6X burner ($25,000 with the automatic loading arm) and now with about 70 different models of drives, including an HD-DVD prototype. I do not insist that is "never/rarely the media that" are at fault; I simply state that it is often that problem. That's why I would not "tell everyone who has a problem" that it's not the fault of the medium he or she is using, but that it's a good possibility that ought to be considered. You have helped people who have problems by suggesting they use Taiyo Yuden and Verbatim. Those are the most compatible media, and that solution works. What I object to on this site is: 1) people who have no problems with certain discs are told that either they will have problems or that they are fools; 2) people who defend certain discs because they have had no problems are shouted down and maybe chased away from an otherwise helpful website; 3) that discs that don't work are "bad quality" when quality is actually quantifiable and not based on opinion; 4) no one offers any data about quality other than scans that merely show the quality of the recording, not necessarily the quality of the disc; and 5) conclusions about discs that do not follow logic. You say that recommending "good quality media" fixes a lot of problems inexpensively for many people. That is true about Taiyo Yuden and Verbatim. I think you are doing a great job doing that. Drawing the conclusion that discs that do not work are "bad quality," however, is not necessarily true. Many people on this site have had no problems with "problem discs"; and many more people on other websites even find them to be excellent quality. A few people have mentioned that difference and questioned it. The response has been that the other sites must host idiots.
Check out the links in the response I sent earlier. There is a wealth of information in them that someone like you would not only enjoy but find useful in helping people further. I know you take pride in helping people, and pointing them to the most compatible discs in the market does work. The information in the links will expand your ability to help by seeing the possibilities other than black and white.
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daman1
Senior Member
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24. April 2006 @ 16:17 |
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Quote:
Hi Doc,
In the last ten years I suspect I have recorded 60,000 discs
Holy sh*t man,, how does sombody burn 60k in disks??
all DVD's ???
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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24. April 2006 @ 16:22 |
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Almost 50,000 were CD-Rs in duplication, testing, analysis; the other 11,000 or so were DVD+/-R/RW/-RAM for the same purposes.
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daman1
Senior Member
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24. April 2006 @ 16:34 |
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Wow thats cool......
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AfterDawn Addict
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24. April 2006 @ 16:58 |
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@JoeRyan
well, in this particular case IN TOTAL, i stand corrected, i haven't been burning for 10 years and i only have maybe a hundred CDs under my belt, however, with your dvd count (in all the various formats) i am equal to you in sheer numbers~ :)
without getting into the specifics of "testing" or whatnot, i just wanted to clarify that i admit i am not nearly as knowledgeable as you are in terms of optical media quality, production, details, etc...my only reason to be regarded highly on this site is due to the MANY people i have gotten back up and running again...the same holds true for my friend creaky...we both tackle problems/issues once presented to us and try to correct them in the easiest way possible, without the need for more "trial and error" and excess spending...a lot of the members having issues are very young, so you have to take that into consideration...you can't present them with a detailed/lengthy article that more than likely they will not understand or even begin to comprehend while reading...they want SIMPLE solutions that MAY or MAY NOT resolve the issue... :)
anyways, like i mentioned earlier, i did not post to argue with you but i DO agree with your outstanding points as to what DOES happen around this site regarding one's "preference" to certain media...if you ever do a search on MY past posts here, i have personally never belittled someone for their choice in media, i may have given them MY SUGGESTIONS as to what other media to TRY to see if it helps, but i have never called anyone a "fool" or flamed anyone personally for their choice...
yes, you see a lot of "regurgitation" of "i like this media, that media sucks, blah blah blah" all the time in the media forums; people will be people and that is human nature...you've probably picked up on my HATRED towards TDK's own "TT" coded media in my other posts, but once again, it's only MY opinion...and others that have had BAD EXPERIENCES with TDK also jump aboard to tout it as being "crappy"...everyone is entitled to their OWN media preferences and as you will see, their OPINIONS are posted sometimes in a derogatory manner...whether that means they "flame" someone who has had GREAT success with what the "majority" of people consider "poor quality media" or just bash someone who's views are not in accord with their own :)
i DO agree with your stance and your views about how some members seem to "team up" and bash someone to no end based solely on their choice in media that has worked well for them on their setup, we could all benefit if some maturity were taken into account sometimes within these forums, but with such a large forum population, it's going to be near impossible to implement such a change unfortunately...
that's the "internet" for ya~ :)
as i respect YOUR opinion on such matters, it might be worthwhile for you to respect MY opinions on media...whether we agree or disagree on certain topics, that's life...no harm, no foul~
just putting into words regarding MY perspective in the whole scheme of things~ have a good one
docTY~
Recommended Media:
Taiyo Yuden 4x dvd-r TYGO1/ 8x dvd-r TYGO2/ 8x dvd+r YUDEN000T02/ 16x dvd+r YUDEN000T03
Verbatim 8x dvd+r MCC003
Verbatim dvd+r DL (MKM001)= flawless no compression backups
"Do Yourself A Favor, Use The Good Stuff
TY & Verbs 4 Life~ :)" ~docTY~
"Its better to be quiet and appear stupid, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
I am always prepared to recognize that there can be two points of view - mine and one that is probably wrong - John Gorton
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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25. April 2006 @ 10:12 |
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Doc,
I do respect your opinion and the way you handle questions and problems, particularly from new visitors to the forum. I only wish everyone on this site showed the same courtesy.
Do check out the links I sent. Media Sciences has most of the documentation simply written on the site, but it is worthwhile reading through it. Jerry Hartke is a bit conservative on writing speeds, and he is far more thorough on CD-R than on DVD. His findings show that illegal file structure is a major problem with duplicated discs, something I've only rarely seen except when a video backup file does not match an IFO file because data were extrapolated in one or the other. If I remember correctly, both the Memorex site and the Steag site had downloadable pdf files. The Steag information gets pretty deep into engineering, but the Memorex reference guide is written for non-engineers and has the technical stuff marked in green so people can skip it if they like. As a TY expert, you ought to recommend that people at least use it as a reference guide to learn more about discs. Even though it comes from Memorex, the info is non-commercial and applies to all optical media, including MiniDisc, DL, and the blue laser nonsense.
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AfterDawn Addict
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25. April 2006 @ 10:21 |
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As the DOC stated in the second post,
You cant get any better than AZO metal dye.
I only USE AZO dye media,
And these are the only ones I recommend,
Al-beit here or to my own friends and family.
If you want to konw what makes BAD media BAD look
at this image here.
On the flip side as to why AZO dye is superior,
Examine the image below taken from Verbatim's dvd media PDF guide.
The media DOC is suggesting IS the best media on the market.
But dont take our word for it.
Goto the digitalfaq website and read for yourself.
http://www.digitalfaq.com/media/dvdmedia.htm
The following list is in preference order. The best discs are near the top of the list. The discs at
the bottom of the list are suitable only for a landfill.
Almost flawless burns with 95-100% reliable results:
PVC = Pioneer = (-R)(-RW)
MXLRG01, MXLRG02 = Maxell = (-R) ... be aware of unbranded fakes
MCC = Mitsubishi Chemicals = (-R)<-----------------VERBATIM MY CHOICE #1
TDKG02 = TDK Corp = (-R) ... be aware of unbranded fakes
TAIYOYUDEN or YUDEN = Taiyo Yuden = (-R)<--------------FUJIFILM (made in japan) MY CHOICE #2
Decent discs, though not perfect, about 85-95%
success rate:
RICOHJPN = Ritek or Ricoh = (+R)
SONYD04 = Sony = (-R) ... be aware of unbranded fakes
PRODISC = Prodisc Media = (+RW)
INFODISC = Infodisc Media = (+RW)
RITEKG04 = Ritek = (-R)
RITEKG03 = Ritek = (-R)
OPTODISC = Optodisc = (-R)
Quality can be very questionable, about 50-80% success rate:
LEADDATA or LD01 or LD or LEDA = Lead Data = (-R)(-RW)
PRINCO = Princo = (-R)(-RW)
RITEK = Ritek = (-RW)
ONIDTECH = OnidTech = (-R)
Pathetic garbage media, landfill material, about 0-50% success rate:
RITEKG01, RITEKG02 = Ritek = (-R)
PIODATA = Lead Data = (-R) ... often sold as "Pioneer OEM" but that's false
Unbranded PIO = Fake Pioneer = (-R) ... often sold as "Pioneer OEM" but that's false
Unbranded SONY = Fake Sony = (-R)
Unbranded MXL = Fake MXL = (-R)
ACCU = Unknown OEM = (-R)
LONGTEN = Unknown OEM = (-R)
AN31, AN32, ANWELL, AN30 = Unknown OEM = (-R)
OPTODISC = Optodisc = (+R)(+RW)
MATRIX = Unknown OEM = (-R)
CMC = CMC Magnetics = (+R)(-R)
ANYTHING ELSE = Unknown OEM or NEW
Possunt Quia Posse Videntur. This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 25. April 2006 @ 10:28
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AfterDawn Addict
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25. April 2006 @ 13:38 |
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@JoeRyan
Quote:
As a TY expert, you ought to recommend that people at least use it as a reference guide to learn more about discs.
point taken, i do appreciate your input and will refer others to your links for further information about media; we're all here to learn more and absorb as much knowledge as we can (well, at least I am):)
your links DO provide valuable information and i thank you for that. have a good one, it's nice to have a friendly conversation for a change, rather than some of the downright silly "flamewars" we've seen over the past few months~ :) you have earned MY respect
docTY~
Recommended Media:
Taiyo Yuden 4x dvd-r TYGO1/ 8x dvd-r TYGO2/ 8x dvd+r YUDEN000T02/ 16x dvd+r YUDEN000T03
Verbatim 8x dvd+r MCC003
Verbatim dvd+r DL (MKM001)= flawless no compression backups
"Do Yourself A Favor, Use The Good Stuff
TY & Verbs 4 Life~ :)" ~docTY~
"Its better to be quiet and appear stupid, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
I am always prepared to recognize that there can be two points of view - mine and one that is probably wrong - John Gorton
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