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Writing Strategy - Slower Better or Faster Better???
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Acextreme
Newbie
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2. December 2005 @ 11:08 |
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I have a question which I am very curious to know the answer to. Does burning below the media's rated speed produces better results or otherwise?
Say for example, I have an 8x TY DVD+R media. Would burning this media at 4x speed produce a better quality burn or would burning at 8x speed produce a better result? Or are they the same?
There's always this school of thought that burning at 4x speed is the best strategy but is this really so? I wonder...
Anyone? :)
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AfterDawn Addict
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2. December 2005 @ 11:27 |
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Usually 4x is par. The stand alone players decide how fast you should burn your backups.They will have more problems with the faster burn speed.
Slower-Better?
I'd disagree,because of my benqs.The slower 2.4x causes me the most problems and 4x is better. With these quality burners along with quality media,my PI/PO scans are way better with the faster 8x and 12x burn speed than my slower backups.It comes down to all those little errors that you'll have on your backups.Using a program like: K-probe/nero speed test/or dvdinfopro:Can help check your errors out.
HP a1118x-b/athlon 64-3300+/BenQ 1650 BCDC/LG 8163B/Modded Wii/Epson-R300 and Ty Watershields!!! |
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spacedust
Member
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2. December 2005 @ 14:16 |
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There is alot of factors it all starts with the brand of burner your using and brand of media. I would tell everyone go to the manufactor website of your burner and use what they recommend. The speed you will have to experiment with using something like Nero disk quality tests. From there you can see the diffrence in say 2X 4X 8X 12X 16X. Generally your going to see the errors go up as you burn faster. Saugman is right sometimes a 4X or 6X looks better than say 2.4X it all depends on brand of burner and media. I have done lots of tests with my sony dru710A drive burning maxell verbatum and tiyo yudens and with all of them the faster you burn the more errors your creating. This is also key does your standalone player like +R/-R or both. Your going to have to experiment with +R -R and booktyping +R to dvd-rom. I found an article once that said -R plays in about 89% of standalone players +R 80% and dvd-rom 100%. Basically you want to experiment and go with the brand of media and speed that works the best for your standalone player. I can tell ya this I've found that the apex dvd players will play any thing you throw at them. Sony dvd players like +R media. Xbox first generation drives like -R media.
Good Luck
Spacedust
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AfterDawn Addict
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2. December 2005 @ 19:23 |
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@spacedust
i will have to disagree with you here on your quote: Quote:
I have done lots of tests with my sony dru710A drive burning maxell verbatum and tiyo yudens and with all of them the faster you burn the more errors your creating.
i too have this same drive as my primary backup drive, and i've used THOUSANDS of the Taiyo Yudens and Verbatims, and about 200 of the Maxells~ perhaps i'm reading your statement incorrectly, but, my 8x burns on the 8x rated media are NOT creating more errors than burning @ 4x~ i PERSONALLY never burn @4x, unless it's using the 4x DVD-R TYG01 Taiyo Yudens...but, i digress...
while i agree with both you and saugmon in that 4x is usually "on par" with what people SHOULD burn at, but depending on YOUR OWN INDIVIDUAL setup and if your computer can HANDLE the higher speeds on GOOD QUALITY media, dropping EVERYTHING down to 4x burn speed is NOT going to guarantee you less errors or "better quality burns" :)
just wanted to point that out, i agree with you completely that Quote:
There is alot of factors it all starts with the brand of burner your using and brand of media
...but, IF you have a GOOD burner and GOOD media, then keeping ALL ur burns @4x is NOT going to give you better results and i'm sure that catfreak, the other Benq 1640 fan (saugmon is here on the Benq boat too), between those 2 guys, Benq is covered at every angle! :) will attest to what i said too~ :)
docTY~
Recommended Media:
Taiyo Yuden 4x dvd-r TYGO1/ 8x dvd-r TYGO2/ 8x dvd+r YUDEN000T02/ 16x dvd+r YUDEN000T03
Verbatim 8x dvd+r MCC003
Verbatim dvd+r DL (MKM001)= flawless no compression backups
"Do Yourself A Favor, Use The Good Stuff
TY & Verbs 4 Life~ :)" ~docTY~
"Its better to be quiet and appear stupid, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
I am always prepared to recognize that there can be two points of view - mine and one that is probably wrong - John Gorton
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AfterDawn Addict
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3. December 2005 @ 04:40 |
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Amen doc Ty!
It's all comes down to quality!
Quality media/burner/and programs.You also don't have to pay more for quality.
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xtlee
Junior Member
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3. December 2005 @ 04:40 |
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Well, my tests conclude the burning at 4x produce better discs. But, the difference is marginal if you only look at PI Failures. I also have bad results burning at 2.4x. Here are the results:
4X Burn on Sony DVD-R media (MIT)
8X Burn on Sony DVD-R media (MIT)
16X Burn on Sony DVD-R media (MIT)
Just look at the PI Errors and Jitter, that's the main difference.
If you cant dazzle them with brillance, then baffle them with bullshit...
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 3. December 2005 @ 16:55
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spacedust
Member
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3. December 2005 @ 06:37 |
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Kivory666. The sony drive is rated and will burn at 16X if you do not beleive that burning faster creates more errors on the disk then you should start burning movies at 16X @16X rated media and come back and talk to me after the results. The point Im trying to make here is yes I have tested media using Nero disk quality test looking at the number of PI and PO errors, and with out a doubt the faster you burn the more errors you create. This drive does ok burning from 4X to 8X but when you go to 12X and 16X the errors go threw the roof. I have not tested any tiyo yuden disk at 8X but I have at 4X and it looked good. Most of my test have been with verbatum +R 8X(MCC003)4X having the least of amount of errors and 8X the most. I have also tested maxell from 4X to 8X with the same results. Now with that said Im not saying that the 8X burns will not play on your standalone dvd player, Im just simply stating the facts they have more PI and PO errors. But with out a dought burning verbatum 16X(MCC004) at 16X the errors went threw the roof and the movies started to skip,freeze and in some cases not play at all. I guess what Im trying to say is you have to experiment with diffrent media and speeds and go with what works the best for you and your standalone dvd player. I had the old sony dru510 burn 4X max and i never had a problem with movies freezing up skiping. When I bought this drive DRU710A I had not read much on the hype of 16X burners. I thought I could just buy 16X media and burn @16X right I mean that's how the powers at be push burners 16X is faster and better right WRONG!!!. The sony drive is a rebaged LITE-ON and is a decent drive as long as you do not try to burn over 8X. I have read may reviews and test on burners and In my opinion the Plextor,Pioneer,LG witch I think is a plextor drive look to be a bit better drives than the Lite-On drives. You can go here and see for your self cdrinfo.com.
Good Luck
Spacedust
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AfterDawn Addict
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3. December 2005 @ 08:04 |
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Here's a prime example of a quality burner with some quality verbatim +16x media and the various burn speeds:
12x burn speed:
Edit: For some reason,i can't get multiple pics to post!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 3. December 2005 @ 08:07
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AfterDawn Addict
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3. December 2005 @ 08:09 |
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Same verb 16x Mcc-004 burning at the safer 4x speed? Not!:
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paradyme
Suspended permanently
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3. December 2005 @ 13:13 |
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Stay with the burn speed on your blank media, i.e. 4x 8x etc. Alot of media is making 16x more readily available and I agree faster burn contributes to poorer quality and many read errors. I use 8x consistently SONY DVD-R media. I burn using Nero Recode2 "slow burn" option with great results. As DVD drives are improved they will be built better to suit say 16x and 24x but as of now I would stay within 8x and lower. I use SONY drives also and have not a single complaint.
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Acextreme
Newbie
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3. December 2005 @ 13:20 |
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@saugmon
Hmmm, this is really interesting. The 4x burns that you scanned has a much higher error than the one that was burned at 12x. I notice that you are using DVDInfoPro to scan. For consistency's sake, could you also scan them using Nero CD-DVD Speed?
xtlee's scans uses Nero and the scan results are generally the lower the burn speed the better the quaity. I am just trying to eliminate any inconsistencies and arrive to as fair a conclusion as possible.
@everyone
Is the phenomenon that saugmon experienced an isolated case of Benq burners? Does anyone with a different burner experiences the same thing as saugmon? xtlee doesn't seem to have such a case with his Sony burner...
*pondering* *pondering*
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paradyme
Suspended permanently
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3. December 2005 @ 13:43 |
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Ponder no more, SONY 8x DVD-R and + R media on sale $8.99 at your local "Circuit City". Look at it like this if you doubt me or my claims or believe I'm a brand name junkie, buy one spindle. What's $8.99 for 25 high quality disc made in Japan. You'll be back for more.
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AfterDawn Addict
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3. December 2005 @ 16:52 |
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@spacedust
not trying to start a "flame war" here as with the number of burns i have under my belt, i seriously doubt that i need "more experience" in burning and then Quote:
come back and talk to me after the results
:)
if you have read ANY of my other posts in different threads regarding 16x media, you would already KNOW that i recommend people to keep 16x rated media speeds @8x~ yes, i HAVE tried burning 16x rated media @16x, and HAVE stated that the errors were QUITE HIGH from the Nero dvd-quality tests, something that i WILL NOT try again as my results are probably VERY CLOSE to your own on 16x rated media :)
anyways, i am not familiar with Plextor drives, as i've never owned one, but MANY trusted collegues of mine DO use Plextor everyday and i do not doubt the superior quality of the drives; i have Pioneers, Necs, Liteons, and various Sonys, all of which do the job just fine~ :) besides, this thread isn't a comparison of who has a better burner, we're talking about what Acextreme stated earlier initially, Quote:
I have an 8x TY DVD+R media. Would burning this media at 4x speed produce a better quality burn or would burning at 8x speed produce a better result? Or are they the same?
he's SPECIFICALLY talking about 8x Taiyo Yuden media...and with Taiyo Yuden media, on the drives i DID mention, it's BETTER to burn @ 8x... :) with the higher rated speed 16x TYs, i WILL agree with you it's NOT a good idea to burn @ 16x, and recommend 8x for the 16x rated TYs also...
anyways, this is not worth arguing about, you made a very good point; we all have our own ways to make backups at whatever speed we see fit, who am i to argue with "what works best for you"? i most certainly will not argue your PERSONAL preferences in dvd burning...
i was just somewhat offended by the fact you feel you have "MORE" experience than i do in regards to Taiyo Yuden media, i can assure you that is NOT the case...while you MAY have more experience than i do in regards to 16x rated media, i've only use about 300 thus far (Verbatim MCC004 16x dvd+r), so, i admit, i'm limited to what i have on hand...but, the point Acextreme made by starting this thread was about TAIYO YUDEN 8x media and what the burn speed should be for best results~ i simply answered his query about THAT question alone~
no harm, no foul, do what you must...have a good one
docTY~
Recommended Media:
Taiyo Yuden 4x dvd-r TYGO1/ 8x dvd-r TYGO2/ 8x dvd+r YUDEN000T02/ 16x dvd+r YUDEN000T03
Verbatim 8x dvd+r MCC003
Verbatim dvd+r DL (MKM001)= flawless no compression backups
"Do Yourself A Favor, Use The Good Stuff
TY & Verbs 4 Life~ :)" ~docTY~
"Its better to be quiet and appear stupid, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
I am always prepared to recognize that there can be two points of view - mine and one that is probably wrong - John Gorton
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xtlee
Junior Member
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4. December 2005 @ 08:42 |
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Here are some more tests, this time with 8x Verbatim MCC 003 media.
All these burns are done with the BSMB firmware and read in the same drive. Drive QSuite settings are at defaults.
@Acextreme
I think you mixed up the fact that I burned with a Sony burner when in fact I burned on Sony media. My burner is not a Sony, it's a BENQ DW1640. If you look closely at the nero scan, it says right on it!
4X Burn on Verbatim DVD+R media (MIT)
8X Burn on Verbatim DVD+R media (MIT)
8X Burn rate on Verbatim DVD+R media (MIT)
Notes: As you can see, the PI Errors and Jitter are lower with a 8x burn this time. As for the PIF spike on the 4x burn, this could have been the media in that particular spot. Media and firmware play a key role in how the discs turn out. I always run a test to see which media works best at which speed. I will run another test as soon as I have a chance for the 4x burn.
All these burns are well within specs. Here is a DVD-ROM to compare.
If you cant dazzle them with brillance, then baffle them with bullshit...
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 4. December 2005 @ 08:43
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AfterDawn Addict
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4. December 2005 @ 09:58 |
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@xtlee
thank you for verifying w/ PROOF about what i had said earlier, when i use my Benq 1640, i too get better results at the rated speed~ i have used many of those MCC003 8x dvd+r Verbs myself~ :)
even when comparing my Sony burner w/ my Benq burner, actually, the same holds true w/ quality media~ the only time i burn @4x is on Taiyo Yuden 4x dvd-r TYGO1s; all other Taiyo Yudens in either format remain @8x burns w/ quality scores 95+~ :)
anyways, not trying to continue this debate w/ spacedust, just wanted to make a point and thank you xtlee for PROVING this point, catfreak is another member w/ the Benq 1640 and i KNOW that he's VERY knowledgeable about this drive with a LOT of experience burning on this drive...i don't mean to speak on his behalf, but i'm pretty sure he would agree with both you and i here, xtlee~ burning @ rated speed on 8x dvd-r/dvd+r Verbatims/Taiyo Yudens for outstanding results :)
docTY~
Recommended Media:
Taiyo Yuden 4x dvd-r TYGO1/ 8x dvd-r TYGO2/ 8x dvd+r YUDEN000T02/ 16x dvd+r YUDEN000T03
Verbatim 8x dvd+r MCC003
Verbatim dvd+r DL (MKM001)= flawless no compression backups
"Do Yourself A Favor, Use The Good Stuff
TY & Verbs 4 Life~ :)" ~docTY~
"Its better to be quiet and appear stupid, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
I am always prepared to recognize that there can be two points of view - mine and one that is probably wrong - John Gorton
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 4. December 2005 @ 10:01
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Senior Member
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4. December 2005 @ 11:46 |
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I will speak for 8X TY media and 8x TY media only... Using my setup (pioneer DVR-109 FW 8.57 and LiteOn SOHW 1693S FW KSOA), I get the best results burning at 8X in both -R and +R...
Dropbox: http://db.tt/p5P9bH1d
System 1: Core2Quad Q6600 O/Ced @ 3.15 GHz, Gigabyte GA EP35 DS4 mobo, Zalman 9700, 4GB PC6400 RAM, Sapphire Radeon 2600HD Pro, Samsung 920BW 19" Widescreen LCD, Hauppauge! PVR-350.
System 2: Core2Duo E6400 O/Ced @ 3.2 GHz, Gigabyte GA 965P S3 mobo, Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro, 2GB PC6400 RAM, PNY GeForce 6600, Hyundai B70A 17" LCD.This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 4. December 2005 @ 11:47
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Acextreme
Newbie
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4. December 2005 @ 17:42 |
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@teflonmyk
I am very interested in your setup because you are using the Pioneer DVR-109 as I am. Could you post some quality scans on the TY 8x DVD+R media burned at 4x and 8x?
I can't scan because my other DVD-ROM drive is an MSI and it always gives very VERY horrible result in Nero CD-DVD speed quality test. And Pioneer drives are never reliable for their scans so could you post some scan results, please? Thank you...
@everyone
So it seems that burning 8x speed on 8x rated quality media like TY/Verbatims will produce better quality scan results than burning at 4x on the same kind of media, right?
Then I am now wondering about all those past advice where people claim that for burning DVDs, 4x should be the best speed to burn. If burning at 8x on 8x rated quality media produces better results, then the past advice of burning no more than 4x won't hold true anymore.
More interestingly, why is this the case? Is it just isolated to some drives like Benq (maybe the Benq firmware writers focus more on achieving better quality burns at high speed and neglected slower speeds) or to other drives as well? So far, we have only seen scans burned with the Benq 1640 drive. I would love to see some from Pioneers, Plextor, Liteon and Sony drives if possible.
Anyway, from a logical point of view, burning a media at 8x will have more chances for errors so burning slower at a speed of 4x should have better results than at 8x. But that is clearly not the case here so far. What is the reason for this? Anyone?
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milviel
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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4. December 2005 @ 22:45 |
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So whats the verdict? Is it better to burn at the rated speed of the disk or at 4x, which is the speed that a large number of users prefer and recommend? The reason I ask is becuase when I burn my TY's at the rated speed of 8x it seems as if I get far fewer errors than I recieve when I burn at 4x.
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AfterDawn Addict
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5. December 2005 @ 00:28 |
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as i said earlier, Quote:
burning @ rated speed on 8x dvd-r/dvd+r Verbatims/Taiyo Yudens for outstanding results :)
while, in part, it DOES come down to which burner you are using, but, if you have a good quality burner and an authentic TY/Verb. disc, burn it at rated speed...
i am not even going to comment on the "what everyone has believed and advised in the past about burning @4x for "best" results"...i have long since disregarded that for over a year now...am i "correct" in advising everyone to speed up their burn speeds now on TY media, maybe NOT, but i'm not going to argue with MY oWN results burning @8x vs @4x; however limited the few members that DO AGREE WIth ME are, so be it...everyone has their own way of burning...if they see burning @4x is the "best" so be it...just don't waste your time trying to CONVINCE and CHANGE ME into doing what you believe is "engraved in stone"...just cuz YOU do it one way, does NOT mean everyone else should follow ur lead...u aren't ALwAYS right, just biased in your OWN PROCEDURE/SPEED of burning, that's all~
i only advise others here on "what has worked for ME PErSONALLY", im not going to waste my time on someone who won't even lend an ear to listen to what i and many OTHERS have to say...if they believe that's it's only "THEIR WAY or the HIGhwAY", i am not even going to bother getting thru to those kind of stubborn ass people, waste of time and space in my eyes~
the people that seem to proclaim, "they know the BEST way" to go about doing anything in life are usually the biggest losers that have no actual CLUE as to what they are doing...they just mimic what others have said and just follow along like dumb sheep to the slaughter...
anyways, sorry for taking this thread on a slight detour...this initial question by Acextreme will NEVER be fully answered due to the varying opinions with the people here on AfterDawn...to all those reading this thread, try out various speeds and see what works FOR YOU PErSONALLY...and then come to your OWN conclusions as to what is "best" for your setup...
the only reason i am even IN this thread is because of the question concerning 8x DVD+R Taiyo Yudens, i burn them @8x with BETTER results than @4x...i'm DONE.
docTY
Recommended Media:
Taiyo Yuden 4x dvd-r TYGO1/ 8x dvd-r TYGO2/ 8x dvd+r YUDEN000T02/ 16x dvd+r YUDEN000T03
Verbatim 8x dvd+r MCC003
Verbatim dvd+r DL (MKM001)= flawless no compression backups
"Do Yourself A Favor, Use The Good Stuff
TY & Verbs 4 Life~ :)" ~docTY~
"Its better to be quiet and appear stupid, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
I am always prepared to recognize that there can be two points of view - mine and one that is probably wrong - John Gorton
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Acextreme
Newbie
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5. December 2005 @ 05:17 |
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Maybe I should try the experiment myself too after I get myself a Benq 1640 burner. I want that extra burner for the sake of scanning as well as using it if it turns out better than my Pioneer DVR-A09XLB burner. The price of the Benq 1640 is about the same as a DVD-ROM drive here, so I might as well get the burner instead and the Benq 1640 seems like a really good choice too...
Anyway, if anyone here owns a Pioneer burner, could you pls post some scan results for 4x and 8x burn speed on TY/Verbatim 8x medias? It will be some time before I get my Benq 1640 though. Also I would like them as reference to find out if burning at 8x speed on 8x rated media is indeed better than burning at 4x on the same media and to put an end to the myth once and for all.
I believe it will be for the best of everyone's interest if burning with the best quality concerns them. Unless of course you don't bother about quality at all...
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spacedust
Member
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5. December 2005 @ 15:23 |
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I just updated my firmware to latest version on sony DRU710A I must admit the verbatum media MCC003 buned at 8X looks really good much better than before. But Im still scared to waste my money on Verbatum Mcc04 16X media. If any one has any I would love to see some scans on it burned at 16X or 12X. My sony scans still do not compare to those benq scans though nice drive. Kivory sorry for blasting you!!. I need to try some of that taiyo yuden 8X media now. I've seen the shiny silver which is the cheapest and silver printable and white face printable which do you recommend. Is there any diffrence in those 3 as far as quality becouse I do not plan on printing on them just want the best quality. I found those at meritline and supermediastore.
Spacedust
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xtlee
Junior Member
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6. December 2005 @ 13:09 |
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As Promised!
Here is that second 4x burn on Verbatim MCC 003 media. The 1st graph shows the burn rate and the 2nd is the PIE/PIF scan. The 3rd is the same disc scanned with the latest version of DVDInfo.
If you cant dazzle them with brillance, then baffle them with bullshit...
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xtlee
Junior Member
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6. December 2005 @ 15:04 |
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I wonder what's up with that previous disc in the speed test. Anyone have any idea why it's like this?
If you cant dazzle them with brillance, then baffle them with bullshit...
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Acextreme
Newbie
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7. December 2005 @ 04:41 |
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@xtlee
Everything seems perfect from the quality scans so what gives the weird drop in the transfer graph towards the last quarter of the disc, I have absolutely no idea. Maybe it's just the drive. Did you try doing the transfer on another drive?
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xtlee
Junior Member
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7. December 2005 @ 05:07 |
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In other drives, as soon as it goes over 8x after the 3.8 Gig mark...the transfer rate drops.
If you cant dazzle them with brillance, then baffle them with bullshit...
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