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Modded Xbox 360s banned from XBL
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The following comments relate to this news article:
article published on 18 May, 2007
As many Afterdawn users found out the hard way this week, Microsoft has begun banning modified Xbox 360 consoles from being able to access Xbox Live. A Microsoft spokesperson described the move as "an important part of our efforts to try and maintain a fair gaming environment for the large majority of gamers that play by the rules".
Microsoft also said it was banning by unit rather than ... [ read the full article ]
Please read the original article before posting your comments.
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Mav2k
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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21. May 2007 @ 11:48 |
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This is the first time I have posted a comment on AfterDawn but I feel so strongly about this I decided to do so.
I own an Xbox 360 and have flashed the firmware so to play backups, backups which I OWN the original to. I do this for several reasons, one of which is, you may or may not be aware that xbox 360 drives can fatally scratch game discs whilst being played, as Microsoft decided not to put in any protection system like most drives have to prevent this from happening (basically the disc can tilt and come into physical contact with the read head, the drives should have a simple piece of rubber on each side which prevents this from happening should the disc be tilted for any reason whilst spinning at high revolutions). If this happens to your original game disc you can't prove with ease that the xbox 360 damaged it and so you have to go and BUY the game a second or even a third time if you have been very unlucky. So I use a backup in place of my original so to avoid any of these problems. There are many other legitimate reasons but this is the only one I wish to elaborate on at this time.
Also, in my country I am legally allowed to modify my Xbox 360 so to be able to play my legally made backups as the laws in my country allow this.
I hope Microsoft is reading this topic in this forum because I have legal insurance and I WILL take Microsoft to court if my system is banned from using XBL and if successful this will set a precedent which would force MS to unban all users who live in a country where modifcation and backup of your original owned games is LEGAL!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 21. May 2007 @ 11:51
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samuels
Suspended permanently
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21. May 2007 @ 14:05 |
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Originally posted by Mav2k:
This is the first time I have posted a comment on AfterDawn but I feel so strongly about this I decided to do so.
I own an Xbox 360 and have flashed the firmware so to play backups, backups which I OWN the original to. I do this for several reasons, one of which is, you may or may not be aware that xbox 360 drives can fatally scratch game discs whilst being played, as Microsoft decided not to put in any protection system like most drives have to prevent this from happening (basically the disc can tilt and come into physical contact with the read head, the drives should have a simple piece of rubber on each side which prevents this from happening should the disc be tilted for any reason whilst spinning at high revolutions). If this happens to your original game disc you can't prove with ease that the xbox 360 damaged it and so you have to go and BUY the game a second or even a third time if you have been very unlucky. So I use a backup in place of my original so to avoid any of these problems. There are many other legitimate reasons but this is the only one I wish to elaborate on at this time.
Also, in my country I am legally allowed to modify my Xbox 360 so to be able to play my legally made backups as the laws in my country allow this.
I hope Microsoft is reading this topic in this forum because I have legal insurance and I WILL take Microsoft to court if my system is banned from using XBL and if successful this will set a precedent which would force MS to unban all users who live in a country where modifcation and backup of your original owned games is LEGAL!
very well said,you summed it up better than what i did,(i also live in a country where modding is completely LEGAL)although i don't use live,so it doesn't phase me,but, it is a concern for millions of others that do,i have heard that even un modified 360's are even getting banned.
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Messaline
Newbie
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21. May 2007 @ 14:16 |
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Here in the US under teh revised DMCA tehy decided that self backups are legal however in the same breath they made circumvention illegal, so that leaves modding and modding tools and the actual software that makes the backup questionable. there hasn't been a test case yet, that I know of.
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Member
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21. May 2007 @ 17:10 |
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Many years ago, Nintendo brought a lawsuit against Tengen for making games for the NES console that were not licensed by Nintendo. I remember reading somewhere in this lawsuit the issues of ownership was brought up. It was decided that when a consumer was to buy a videogame, they could do whatever they wanted with it because they owned it.
This now with Microsoft sounds like leasing a car. You can use it, but you can not do anything with it.
Since when did product ownership turn into product leasing? Is this written on the box that you can not do anything with it? Usually opening up a device will void your warranty, but in this case if you are paying for a service (I'm assuming Live is a pay service, I do not know for sure), what does it matter if your device is modded or not?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 25. May 2007 @ 16:59
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eandtc
Newbie
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21. May 2007 @ 17:29 |
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Quote:
I hope Microsoft is reading this topic in this forum because I have legal insurance and I WILL take Microsoft to court if my system is banned from using XBL and if successful this will set a precedent which would force MS to unban all users who live in a country where modifcation and backup of your original owned games is LEGAL!
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This now with Microsoft sounds like leasing a car. You can use it, but you can not do anything with it.
Since when did product ownership turn into product leasing? Is this written on the box that you can not do anything with it? Usually opening up a device will void your warranty, but in this case if you are paying for a service (I'm assuming Live is a pay service, I do not know for sure), what does it matter if your device is modded or not?
I really don't get the twisting of facts that's going on here. MS does not have to allow people with modded X-Boxes to hook up to their network. It's really quite simple. Now, if you signed a contract that did not mention what the state of your X-Box had to be before connecting to XBL, then you'd have a legal standing.
What you guys are talking about is tantamount to buying a car, and equiping it with third-party parts which, while legal to buy, can render your car illegal to drive on city streets, and now you are bitching because the police are preventing you from driving to work.
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what does it matter if your device is modded or not?
Modding your Box in the privacy of your home is one thing, but taking your modded Box onto MS's network is a whole different matter. For whatever reason, they don't want them there. Game over.
What you need to decide is what is more important to you: modding your Box, or playing on the network.
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AfterDawn Addict
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21. May 2007 @ 17:45 |
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MS does not have to allow people with modded X-Boxes to hook up to their network. It's really quite simple.
This is vry true, the problem is that people are paying for the service, and do have certain rights because of this. The poster who spoke about the legality of backups in his country proves this, M$ is offering this service globally, which means they need in the least refine their policies to respct the laws in the countries in which they offer their services. If this service was free you would be 100% accurate, but the fact people, pirates or not, are paying for the service, makes the whole situation complicated.
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eandtc
Newbie
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21. May 2007 @ 17:58 |
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This is vry true, the problem is that people are paying for the service, and do have certain rights because of this.
And where did they get the "right" to put a modded Xbox on MS's network? Just because I legally buy racing tires for my car doesn't mean I get to drive it on a public street. I'd really like to see the clause in the XBL contract where it states that a person can connect to XBL using a modded Box. If it ain't there, then it ain't your right. Period.
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If this service was free you would be 100% accurate
The hell? Just because you pay for a subscription service doesn't mean you can use it any way, shape or form that you want to without legal ramifications. ALL such services have limitions, one good example being satellite tv. If I fuck with my satellite receiver, and they find out, they can and will prevent me from receiving their signal.
Anyone here got the XBL contract, or got a link. Let's find out exactly what your rights really are, rather than pretending you can do something just because you think you can.
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lancha
Newbie
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21. May 2007 @ 17:59 |
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I was banned on the very first day MS started the bans, but the funny thing is it didn't bother me the slightest. On that day, i was FINALLY able to find a brand new Wii at EB games, last 1 at the store...i was sooo lucky...This system IS the SHIT ppl. Who cares about live. Play Wii Sports with 3 or 4 friends n u'll see how fast u forget about Xbox Live
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AfterDawn Addict
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21. May 2007 @ 18:12 |
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[quote]This is vry true, the problem is that people are paying for the service, and do have certain rights because of this.
And where did they get the "right" to put a modded Xbox on MS's network? Just because I legally buy racing tires for my car doesn't mean I get to drive it on a public street. I'd really like to see the clause in the XBL contract where it states that a person can connect to XBL using a modded Box. If it ain't there, then it ain't your right. Period.
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If this service was free you would be 100% accurate
The hell? Just because you pay for a subscription service doesn't mean you can use it any way, shape or form that you want to without legal ramifications. ALL such services have limitions, one good example being satellite tv. If I fuck with my satellite receiver, and they find out, they can and will prevent me from receiving their signal.
Anyone here got the XBL contract, or got a link. Let's find out exactly what your rights really are, rather than pretending you can do something just because you think you can.[/quote]Unless you are well versed in global law which im pretty confident you are not, you dont know what you are talking about. AND STOP WITH ALL THESE LAME ASS CAR ANALOGIES!
So, according to you, if I live in Sweden where it is 100% legal to backup your games, the rules shouldnt be refined? The government established the law, the members of the country are doing nothing wrong by using their backup on their console. Ok make sure you read this....M$ is a Piece of trash company....Sweden is a country. See the distinction?? Government > corporation, especially outside the US. If my government tells me that I can do something LEGALLY, and am then punished for doing this, that is horse shit. Plain and simple.
And stop thinking in the context of US law, my last post was in a global perspective. Although I am a US citizen, i disagree with many policies. If you are going to do business around the world, it might be worth the time to learn the governing laws in which you do business with....or you will find your arse sued.
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eandtc
Newbie
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21. May 2007 @ 18:20 |
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Unless you are well versed in global law which im pretty confident you are not, you dont know what you are talking about.
Just because I'm saying what you don't want to hear doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about, and saying what you want to be true over and over doesn't make it true, either.
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"So, according to you, if I live in Sweden where it is 100% legal to backup your games, the rules shouldnt be refined?"
As I said over and over again: there's a difference between modding your box at home for whatever purpose, and taking that same box onto XBL. Modding for backups and going onto XBL are mutually exclusive activities.
Here are some highlights from http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/legal/?WT.svl=nav
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3. HOW AND WHEN YOU MAY USE THE SERVICE
We provide the Service for your personal use. You may not use the Service for commercial purposes or in a way that is against the law. You also may not use it in a way that harms us or our affiliates, resellers, distributors, service providers, partners and/or suppliers (collectively, the "Microsoft Parties"), or any customer of a Microsoft Party. Some examples of harmful activity that we do not permit include: (i) trying to gain access to any account, computers, hardware or networks related to this Service without authorization; (ii) disrupting accounts, computers, hardware or networks related to the Service; (iii) obtaining or trying to obtain any data through any means from the Service, except if we intend to provide or make it available to you; (iv) using the Service or related hardware to obtain any data to design, develop or update unauthorized software that you use or provide to others to access or use in connection with the Service; (v) charging others to use the Service either directly or indirectly; (vi) using or distributing unauthorized cheats, macros or scripts; (vii) exploiting any bug, or making unauthorized modifications to any software or data, in the Service or particular game to gain unfair advantage in a game.
We may tell you about other specific harmful uses in a code of conduct or other notice available through the Service. We have, however, no duty to do so. You will obey any codes of conduct or other notices we provide.
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Use the Service or any material or information which is made available through the Service in any manner that infringes any copyright, trademark, patent, trade secret, or other proprietary right of any party.
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10. SOFTWARE; INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
We and our suppliers grant you a personal, non-exclusive, revocable license to use the software and associated content (e.g., text, images, video, graphics, music, sound) made available to you on this Service only for and during the authorized use of this Service and/or the game or other product to which the software and content relate. You may not copy, download, modify or create derivative works, publish, transmit, sell or attempt to sell or transfer, or otherwise use or exploit any software or associated content unless we or our suppliers have expressly allowed you to do so. Some software and associated content you may choose to download may be accompanied by an end user license agreement ("EULA") or may indicate specific authorized uses or restrictions (such as the Special Video Content described in Section 11 below), in which case the EULA or those other rights and restrictions will apply.
And here's the biggie:
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14. SERVICE OPERATION AND EQUIPMENT
The Service may only be accessed with an original Xbox, an Xbox 360 console, a personal computer or by logging into your account via Xbox.com. You agree that you are using authorized software and hardware to access the Service, and that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way (e.g., authorized repairs, upgrades and downloads). Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, modify, further sublicense, distribute, or use for other purposes either the hardware or software associated with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console or the Service, is strictly prohibited and may result in cancellation of your account and/or your ability to access the Service, and the pursuit of other legal remedies by Microsoft. Microsoft may take any legal action it deems appropriate against users who violate Microsoft's systems or network security or this contract or any additional terms as described in Section 2 above, and such users may also incur criminal and/or civil liability.
Microsoft reserves complete and sole discretion with respect to the operation of the Service. Microsoft may, among other things: (a) restrict or limit access to the Service; (b) retrieve information from the original Xbox, Xbox 360 console, personal computer and any connected peripheral device used to log onto the Service as necessary to operate and protect the security of the Service, and to enforce this Agreement; and (c) upgrade, modify, withdraw, suspend, or discontinue any functionality or feature of the Service or any game from time to time without notice, which may involve the automatic download of related software directly to your original Xbox, Xbox 360 console or personal computer, and which software may prevent you from accessing the Service, playing pirated games, or using unauthorized peripheral devices.
This is what you agreed to when you signed onto XBL. If you don't think this is right, then you shouldn't have paid for it. If you didn't read the contract before you signed it, then that's your fault.
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If you are going to do business around the world, it might be worth the time to learn the governing laws in which you do business with....or you will find your arse sued.
Yeah, good luck winning this one, Clarence Darrow.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 21. May 2007 @ 18:20
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AfterDawn Addict
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21. May 2007 @ 18:35 |
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Ill give this to you, you are persistant and a hell of a lot more intelligent then the average poster. I wont continue this argument, because the legality of all this is more then even i know. Yes, in America, it is copyright infringement to make a backup....while in other nations where it is legal to backup media you purchase, would you consider it infringement? That is my point.
You know as well as I do that 90% of people are ignorant, when they are told something is legit they do no question the judgement. What we are talking about is extremely complicated, and we are not completely on the same length. In America, you are right. We are not allowed to circumvent copy protection regardless, thus M$ has every right to ban. As I have pointed out, this doesnt hold true in other countries. If the typical moron in Sweden or wherever backups their games which is legal, and then plays on Live, there is a major conflict when he gets banned. The dude scratched up his disk to no fault of his own (any 360 owner knows it scratches disk's badly), so he played his backup...30 minutes later gets banned. Where is the justice in that? He did nothing wrong according to his govenment. We both know the average person doesnt read the rules of usage, and im not saying that they have legal precedence because of their ignorance.
Bottom line is that it is bad business, and will bite M$ on the ass. I do have a flashed 360 but never have subscriber to Live, and would not bitch when I got banned, because I understand the policy.
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Mav2k
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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21. May 2007 @ 18:37 |
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What always surprises me is how people take what a company dictates or puts in writing as the LAW or as the TRUTH.
The amount of times I see signs and contracts which state things like, "if you buy this item from our store you are NOT entitled to a cash refund if faulty, ONLY a credit voucher or replacement", now this is just an example, but just because someone makes you sign something to do something you want to do or purchase something you want, does NOT make it LEGAL or CORRECT! (To people who do not live in my country, this is against the law, if any item is found to be faulty within a given time you are ENTITLED to a full CASH refund, no questions asked!)
When Microsoft or any other company supply a paid for service or commodity, it does NOT give them the right to break the LAWS in a particular country if they happen NOT to fit into MS's way of doing things.
In effect MS is dictating to me what I can do with my OWN console and if I do not abide they remove some of its functionality as a consequence, I believe this to be ILLEGAL in my country!
Here in Europe MS has been fined many times for not abiding by our LAWS in various areas, this MAY be another GREY area which IS going to be addressed sooner or later and MAY NOT go in MS's favour!
Watch this space!!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 21. May 2007 @ 18:45
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AfterDawn Addict
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21. May 2007 @ 18:39 |
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^^^^
/me applaudes you!
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eandtc
Newbie
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21. May 2007 @ 18:55 |
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Yes, in America, it is copyright infringement to make a backup....while in other nations where it is legal to backup media you purchase, would you consider it infringement? That is my point.
I understand, but your point is beside the point. This is not about whether or not you can modify your Box and make copies. This is about whether or not you can take the Xbox that was modified for whatever reason and go onto MS's network. Apples and oranges.
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What always surprises me is how people take what a company dictates or puts in writing as the LAW or as the TRUTH.
The amount of times I see signs and contracts which state things like, "if you buy this item from our store you are NOT entitled to a cash refund if faulty, ONLY a credit voucher or replacement", now this is just an example but just because someone makes you sign something to do something you want to do, does NOT make it LEGAL or CORRECT!
When Microsoft or any other company supply a paid for service or commodity, it does NOT give them the right to break the LAWS in a particular country if they happen NOT to fit into MS's way of doing things.
This makes no point whatsoever, unless of course you are saying that, despite signing this contract, MS is as legally bound to following their contract as you think you are. Since you feel it is within your rights to agree to this contract and yet not be bound to it, then you wouldn't have a problem with MS doing the same thing?
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In effect MS is dictating to me what I can do with my OWN console and if I do not abide they remove some of its functionality as a consequence, I believe this to be ILLEGAL in my country!
No, you want it to be illegal. Care to bring up the appropriate law? (BTW, I love how you talk about law and truth in a negative manner when it goes against you, and yet in a positive manner when you think it will benefit you. Pretty funny.)
In a nutshell:
Modding console in privacy of home = okay
Taking modded console onto XBL = not okay.
Do you see the difference?
They are not required to accept your modded console on their network. How and why you modded your console aren't even part of this argument. To presume that they must allow a paying customer to access their network with modded hardware, when that paying customer agreed prior to paying that they would not use modded hardware, makes no sense, regardless of whether or not you think it's a good or bad business decision. Good luck finding a country that will support you in this legal endeavor.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 21. May 2007 @ 19:00
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AfterDawn Addict
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21. May 2007 @ 19:06 |
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Some good points presented there aswell, I see this going on for days :/
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Messaline
Newbie
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21. May 2007 @ 19:58 |
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Originally posted by Mav2k:
What always surprises me is how people take what a company dictates or puts in writing as the LAW or as the TRUTH.
The amount of times I see signs and contracts which state things like, "if you buy this item from our store you are NOT entitled to a cash refund if faulty, ONLY a credit voucher or replacement", now this is just an example, but just because someone makes you sign something to do something you want to do or purchase something you want, does NOT make it LEGAL or CORRECT! (To people who do not live in my country, this is against the law, if any item is found to be faulty within a given time you are ENTITLED to a full CASH refund, no questions asked!)
When Microsoft or any other company supply a paid for service or commodity, it does NOT give them the right to break the LAWS in a particular country if they happen NOT to fit into MS's way of doing things.
In effect MS is dictating to me what I can do with my OWN console and if I do not abide they remove some of its functionality as a consequence, I believe this to be ILLEGAL in my country!
Here in Europe MS has been fined many times for not abiding by our LAWS in various areas, this MAY be another GREY area which IS going to be addressed sooner or later and MAY NOT go in MS's favour!
Watch this space!!
Microsoft IS NOT impairing the functionality of the XB360 that you own; they're just inserting a tag to allow their servers to disallow it; if there was another service from another provider, theoretically you'd still be able to access THAT network , assuming they didn't share the ban list with microsoft.
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samuels
Suspended permanently
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21. May 2007 @ 22:03 |
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[quote]Yes, in America, it is copyright infringement to make a backup....while in other nations where it is legal to backup media you purchase, would you consider it infringement? That is my point.
I understand, but your point is beside the point. This is not about whether or not you can modify your Box and make copies. This is about whether or not you can take the Xbox that was modified for whatever reason and go onto MS's network. Apples and oranges.
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What always surprises me is how people take what a company dictates or puts in writing as the LAW or as the TRUTH.
The amount of times I see signs and contracts which state things like, "if you buy this item from our store you are NOT entitled to a cash refund if faulty, ONLY a credit voucher or replacement", now this is just an example but just because someone makes you sign something to do something you want to do, does NOT make it LEGAL or CORRECT!
When Microsoft or any other company supply a paid for service or commodity, it does NOT give them the right to break the LAWS in a particular country if they happen NOT to fit into MS's way of doing things.
This makes no point whatsoever, unless of course you are saying that, despite signing this contract, MS is as legally bound to following their contract as you think you are. Since you feel it is within your rights to agree to this contract and yet not be bound to it, then you wouldn't have a problem with MS doing the same thing?
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In effect MS is dictating to me what I can do with my OWN console and if I do not abide they remove some of its functionality as a consequence, I believe this to be ILLEGAL in my country!
No, you want it to be illegal. Care to bring up the appropriate law? (BTW, I love how you talk about law and truth in a negative manner when it goes against you, and yet in a positive manner when you think it will benefit you. Pretty funny.)
In a nutshell:
Modding console in privacy of home = okay
Taking modded console onto XBL = not okay.
Do you see the difference?
They are not required to accept your modded console on their network. How and why you modded your console aren't even part of this argument. To presume that they must allow a paying customer to access their network with modded hardware, when that paying customer agreed prior to paying that they would not use modded hardware, makes no sense, regardless of whether or not you think it's a good or bad business decision. Good luck finding a country that will support you in this legal endeavor.[/quote]
while your statement may be quite true,i don't know how live works,so i can't really go commenting to much about it,as i don't have a clue,what you have to do,i understand that people agree by M$ agreement,to use the service,however,countries that are allowed to modify the consoles and make back up of their originals,M$ technically cannot ban that console,until they can personally verify that the person does, in actual fact own an original copy,of the backup that they are using on live.in this scenorio i don't think it would hold up very well in a court case for M$.
also when everyone bought their 360,there is no signing of contracts,to prevent anyone from modifying the consoles,while it may be illegal in one country it's not in another,as i have stated...sure theres "pirates" but not everyone does this,there are many reasons why people back up their originals.
we could all argue that even the internet is illegal,we have the feds watching us,we have hackers watching us,etc,etc
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 21. May 2007 @ 22:05
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Senior Member
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22. May 2007 @ 00:56 |
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eandtc has it right, regardless of the legal factors around game backups and modding etc when you sign up to LIVE you agree to their Terms and Conditions before your allowed to use the service. As shown it is in those terms and conditions that you are not allowed to use backups or a modified console, and in doing so you break the contract (legal?) you agreed to and run the risk of being permanently denied the use of that service. The only people able to complain about this are the people who got caught with no reason, half the people on xbox.com claiming to have a non-modded console are obviously just trying to get a free fix as several of them have games that arent released (only available by DL'ing) in there recently played list (pirates of the Caribbean being the main one), so they are full of crap.
EDIT: They are only banning people from LIVE, its not like they are bricking peoples consoles (which they could probably legally do if they wanted). Even if people are using legally backed-up games it still breaks the agreement the user signed on first use of LIVE, the LIVE agreement is like a global law.
"This is how it works. Whatever you sink, we build back up. Whomever you sue, ten new pirates are recruited. Wherever you go, we are already ahead of you. You are the past and the forgotten, we are the internet and the future."-Brokep
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. May 2007 @ 01:04
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Mav2k
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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22. May 2007 @ 02:36 |
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It is obvious that everyone has differing opinions on what is ok and what is not.
I will say this one last time. I want to use XBL, in order to use this service that I pay for, I have to agree to MS's terms and conditions or I am unable to use the online FUNCTION which MY Xbox 360 offers.
Now just because MS FORCE me to agree to these terms and conditions, does NOT make it LEGALLY enforceable by them in a court of law in a country like mine where modification and backup is totally LEGAL. Not so I can CHEAT whilst playing games on XBL, this is not part of the modification / backup, it simply allows the use of my LEGALLY backed up up game of my ORIGINAL.
Now to that person who says I used the words LAW and TRUTH when it suits me, how have I demonstrated differences in any of my statements. If I had copied a game I do not own then that would be illegal and fair cop if I was caught out, but this is NOT the case nor have I changed my views or used selective wording, I suggest you read my statements more clearly next time before making a wrong judgment!
To end I will just say that I think most of the people here have heard of court cases regarding unfair and illegal wording of contracts which end users have to sign or have signed in order to use their property or paid for service, this is not a clear cut case and MS are NOT always in the RIGHT!
To Andrew691: Microsoft has NO LEGAL right in ANY country to brick anyones console just because they do not agree with how it is being used! Finally, Microsoft do NOT make the LAWS in ANY country, so your reference to the LIVE agreement being a global law does not stand up!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. May 2007 @ 03:29
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eandtc
Newbie
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22. May 2007 @ 05:24 |
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countries that are allowed to modify the consoles and make back up of their originals,M$ technically cannot ban that console,until they can personally verify that the person does, in actual fact own an original copy,of the backup that they are using on live.
Bullshit. Where's the law saying so?
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sure theres "pirates" but not everyone does this,there are many reasons why people back up their originals.
See, the problem isn't just about "backing up", which is why I keep saying over and over that this excuse is moot.
XBL was set up to work a certain way with Xboxes, and it assumes the Xbox will do certain things. If an Xbox does something other than what it is intended to do, then the network is in danger.
What if an Xbox was modified to making cheating on the net easier? What if an Xbox was modified to find and record personal data? What if an Xbox was modified to download credit card numbers? What if an Xbox was modified to bring down the whole network?
See, you are so focused on your own little world of needs, that you are missing the big picture. There are many ways to modify an Xbox, and to say that MS needs to keep track of all kinds of mods, and determine which are good and which are bad is simply not in their best interests. It's much easier more economical to just ban any Xbox that is not an original product, rather than risk damages incurred to the network by hackers, or by lawsuits from you guys because someone with a hacked box caused you damages.
Think about it - someone pays you to use your network, and insists that they be allowed to do anything they want because they are paying for it. You must consider the fact that the damages they could cause by using the network without limitations could create a higher monetary cost than what they are currently paying you. Is that worth the risk?
No, it isn't. MS wants to keep their network safe and secure, and they have every right to do so. Don't want to play ball by their clearly explained rules in this regard? Then you don't play XBL, and you don't have a legal leg to stand on.
"To end I will just say that I think most of the people here have heard of court cases regarding unfair and illegal wording of contracts which end users have to sign or have signed in order to use their property or paid for service, this is not a clear cut case and MS are NOT always in the RIGHT! "
I never said MS was always right, and in fact while I've been using an MS OS since DOS 6, I've never bought an MS OS since DOS 6. However, in this case, they are right, and to be honest, I completely agree with their choice to prevent moded XBoxes from their network. Considering the hacking going on around the world in general, they really can't afford the risk. And please, by all means, show me the law in any country that says a company in another country MUST let you use whatever equipment you want to get onto their network if you pay a subscription, even if the agreement you agreed to says you won't and can't.
I'll wait....
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. May 2007 @ 06:19
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Mav2k
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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22. May 2007 @ 07:14 |
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Please show me where I said that companies should allow anyone to use any equipment to access their networks?
What I said is if Microsoft want to sell a console and offer as part of that console online game play through a network, I should be able to access that network through their console Which I paid for and for which I pay an annual subscription to access their network.
I think you are fixated on the fact that modded or hacked means BAD or ILLEGAL, used to cheat on games or spy on others. This is NOT what the firmware modification allows and not what anyone is talking about, it simply allows the play back of backed up games on your console and nothing else, it won't even allow a region protected game to play backed up or not, so it even abides by specific region lockouts where applicable, how exactly is that a BAD thing or indeed an ILLEGAL thing, where as discussed the country laws allow!
Quote: "No, it isn't. MS wants to keep their network safe and secure, and they have every right to do so. Don't want to play ball by their clearly explained rules in this regard? Then you don't play XBL, and you don't have a legal leg to stand on."
I didn't realize you were a legal expert in every country on the planet, so please do tell how you can make such a vast statement like that?
Please share your wisdom with us all!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. May 2007 @ 07:20
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eandtc
Newbie
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22. May 2007 @ 07:22 |
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What I said is if Microsoft want to sell a console and offer as part of that console online game play through a network, I should be able to access that network through their console Which I paid for and for which I pay an annual subscription to access their network.
Interesting that you glossed over the part where the Xbox is modded. At that point, the Xbox you want to use is not the Xbox that MS sold to you. Difference.
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I think you are fixated on the fact that modded or hacked means BAD or ILLEGAL
No. Actually, you are fixated on it. Fact is, XBL is MS's network, and they can and set the rules in regards to who can access it and how. They don't have to let a modded Xbox access their network anymore than they have to allow a PS3, PC, or Mac to access their network.
You keep putting the horse before the cart. It's not a question of legality of the mod. It's a question of the integrity of the network. To presume that MS has to believe you or anyone else as to the true nature of the mod is absolutely ridiculous on so many fronts, and legally, they don't have to believe you.
MS doesn't want anything other than unmodified Xboxes on their network. You agreed to this when you signed up. There's no way you can make them do otherwise.
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I didn't realize you were a legal expert in every country on the planet, so please do tell how you can make such a vast statement like that?
That's a retarded response that doesn't make your case at all. You are clearly clutching at straws.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. May 2007 @ 07:39
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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22. May 2007 @ 07:53 |
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meh in the end a chiped system or even one with questionable firmware will be kicked off live, so get use to it already and get a 2nd system for "online play".
Copyright infringement is nothing more than civil disobedience to a bad set of laws. Lets renegotiate them.
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Mav2k
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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22. May 2007 @ 08:00 |
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Quote:- Quote:What I said is if Microsoft want to sell a console and offer as part of that console online game play through a network, I should be able to access that network through their console Which I paid for and for which I pay an annual subscription to access their network.
Interesting that you glossed over the part where the Xbox is modded. At that point, the Xbox you want to use is not the Xbox that MS sold to you. Difference.
Ok if you want to get bitty about this, in your way of thinking, if I purchase a new faceplate to change the front of my xbox, does that mean I no longer have the xbox MS sold to me and so have no right to access their network in order to play online?
Oh and another thing, I have never glossed over the part where I have a modified firmware or use backed games of my originals in any of my posts, you are the one being selective and only selecting the parts of my posts that suit you, to try and backup your claims not me!
The point I am trying to make is that it is not as simple as you are trying to make out, if the law were a simple thing you wouldn't need a lawyer or solicitor to fight your case for you, nothing in life is black and white, just different shades of grey!
Quote:- Quote:I didn't realize you were a legal expert in every country on the planet, so please do tell how you can make such a vast statement like that?
That's a retarded response that doesn't make your case at all. You are clearly clutching at straws.
Please explain how that is a retarded response, you made a specific claim about not having a legal leg to stand on, you cannot make such a claim as you obviously are not a legal expert in any country, never mind around the globe, you are the one with the retarded response not me, and as such I believe you are the one without an answer to back up your claims!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. May 2007 @ 08:16
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eandtc
Newbie
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22. May 2007 @ 08:14 |
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"in your way of thinking, if I purchase a new faceplate to change the front of my xbox, does that mean I no longer have the xbox MS sold to me and so have no right to access their network in order to play online?
1. A comestic change does not affect the workings of the console. Apparently this is not clear to you.
2. A change to the Xbox that does not affect the inner workings is not detectable by Xbox anyways, so, like most other things you've said, it's a moot point.
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The point I am trying to make is that it is not as simple as you are trying to make out, if the law were a simple thing you wouldn't need a lawyer or solicitor to fight your case for you
And what, exactly, has your lawyer told you about this? Nothing? Oh my...
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I believe you are the one without an answer to back up your claims!
You also believe what MS is doing is illegal, posting nothing more than opinions. Just goes to show. Anyways:
1. I've posted the appropriate legal verbage from the MS contract which you would have agreed to.
2. You've not provided any evidence of any law of any country that says MS cannot limit access of their network to a person of another country.
3. You won't find such a law, because any country with a computer network understands that such open, unrestrained access to any network is a bad thing, and the monetary risks clearly exceed any potential gain to be had from allowing it.
But, again, I throw down the gauntlet (and I'm running out of them, too.) Where is this law that you feel gives you the right to put a modded Box on MS's network regardless of their conditions? I'm just dying to see it. ;)
Until you can truly demonstrate otherwise, you are just pissing up a rope, and even more importantly, you cannot access XBL. Congratulations. :)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. May 2007 @ 08:19
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