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Modded Xbox 360s banned from XBL
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The following comments relate to this news article:
article published on 18 May, 2007
As many Afterdawn users found out the hard way this week, Microsoft has begun banning modified Xbox 360 consoles from being able to access Xbox Live. A Microsoft spokesperson described the move as "an important part of our efforts to try and maintain a fair gaming environment for the large majority of gamers that play by the rules".
Microsoft also said it was banning by unit rather than ... [ read the full article ]
Please read the original article before posting your comments.
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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22. May 2007 @ 08:18 |
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I take Eulas with a grain of salt and generally don't give a crap what they have to say.
Moding has always been tricky and now consoles are on the ent,big brother is watching so get over it already *L*
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Mav2k
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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22. May 2007 @ 08:28 |
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eandtc, I really think you are an immature, arrogant person given the comments you have made and profanities you have used.
Have I used any profanities in my posts, have I even been offensive in any of my views posted here, the answer is NO I have not!
You state you have posted the MS jargon in their Terms and Conditions, this shows just how much attention you have paid to my posts (NONE), everyone knows and accepts that MS state clearly you cannot use a modified console on their network, this does not make it right, nor does it mean that in some countries around the world it is not in direct violation of their laws given the use of modifications to play backups of originals is LEGAL there.
I will say again for the LAST time, MS does not make the LAW and just because they make their own rules does not make them always LEGALLY enforceable.
I have never made out that I am a LEGAL expert, but in laws that I do know and have used in my country (i.e. The Sale of Goods Act) for situations similar to this but not quite the same, I feel very strongly that MS are in this case violating my LEGAL RIGHTS in my country if or when my system is banned, because at present it is NOT, thank you for your concern though!! ;)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. May 2007 @ 08:30
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eandtc
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22. May 2007 @ 08:42 |
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Your opinion of me doesn't change facts or improve your argument.
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this does not make it right
You've not shown how limiting access to a network is wrong. You think MS is the only one who has this kind of clause? AOL, MSN, Yahoo...ANY network is going to have these limitiations in regards to altering their hardware or software.
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nor does it mean that in some countries around the world it is not in direct violation of their laws given the use of modifications to play backups of originals is LEGAL there.
Again, you keep confusing back-ups with network access. Two completely different things.
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I will say again for the LAST time, MS does not make the LAW and just because they make their own rules does not make them always LEGALLY enforceable.
And as I said, rules limiting network access are not new, or even unique to XBL. You are missing the forest for the trees.
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but in laws that I do know and have used in my country (i.e. The Sale of Goods Act) for situations similar to this but not quite the same
More details, please. I'm waiting. I'm betting those differences you apparently know of but aren't addressing make all the difference in the world.
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morguex
Account closed as per user's own request
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22. May 2007 @ 09:18 |
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I don't understand why this is such a big debate, It clearly states in the XBL contract that you cannot use a modded xbox of any kind on MS networks.
If you don't like it, don't play XBL with your modded 360.
Just because you think your right, or you have certain rights, does not make you correct.
Cheers to Eandtc, no offense Mav2k, but I think it's time to give it up and just go buy yourself a new unmodded 360.
Peace all
P.S. The comment about the faceplate was just plain funny
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Mav2k
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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22. May 2007 @ 09:36 |
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No offense taken, everyone is entitled to express their own opinion, nothing wrong with that.
I must just say though, it seems in this day and age people seem to just sit back and take things up the rear, if a big global company like MS says jump, most people say how high?
If the UK and the US decided to just sit back and take it up the rear from Hitler in Germany, because it wasn't affecting them directly at that time, the world would be a very different place today and the freedoms most of us have and take for granted would not be a reality.
We have freedom, the freedom to question something we don't agree with, so lets use that freedom and not just take it up the rear from multi nationals like MS.
I'm not saying this makes me right and MS wrong, legally speaking, but unless it is questioned and contended in a court of law, no one will ever know!
I will now refrain from making any more posts on this subject here as I feel I am just going round in circles with those that totally disagree with me, and thats fine, its their own views / opinions but some people make out as if they know what they are saying is FACT but they do not know any more than I do who is right and who is wrong at this time.
Many thanks to all who have taken part in this debate and those who agree with me and showed their support, much appreciated.
eandtc, I don't hold any grudge against you nor do I wish to fall out over this, I only would like you to acknowledge that you MAY not be right in everything you have stated and that it is like me, your OWN opinion.
Peace. :)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. May 2007 @ 10:01
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AfterDawn Addict
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22. May 2007 @ 10:03 |
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Mav2k finally had to quit, just as I did. I understand everything people are saying, and I also understand eandtc is right. Sucks to say, but it is the truth. Although he is right, it doesnt make M$ right. We are the people that bay the big bucks and keep them in business, I hope they take a hit from doing this.
In the end, I learned more here then I did in my last semester of college :)
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eandtc
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22. May 2007 @ 10:14 |
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Well, I'm glad some good came out of this. ;)
I would like to say, also, that I agree that this sucks for you guys, but using modded Boxes potentially creates a lot of problems which can cause MS and you a lot of hassles down the road. I've no love for MS (I'll give up W2K when they pry it from my dead, cold computer), but it's really not worth it for them to allow that kind of access.
Oh, and...
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If the UK and the US decided to just sit back and take it up the rear from Hitler in Germany...
I call Godwin! XD
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. May 2007 @ 11:41
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samuels
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22. May 2007 @ 15:52 |
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[quote]countries that are allowed to modify the consoles and make back up of their originals,M$ technically cannot ban that console,until they can personally verify that the person does, in actual fact own an original copy,of the backup that they are using on live.
Bullshit. Where's the law saying so?
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sure theres "pirates" but not everyone does this,there are many reasons why people back up their originals.
See, the problem isn't just about "backing up", which is why I keep saying over and over that this excuse is moot.
XBL was set up to work a certain way with Xboxes, and it assumes the Xbox will do certain things. If an Xbox does something other than what it is intended to do, then the network is in danger.
What if an Xbox was modified to making cheating on the net easier? What if an Xbox was modified to find and record personal data? What if an Xbox was modified to download credit card numbers? What if an Xbox was modified to bring down the whole network?
See, you are so focused on your own little world of needs, that you are missing the big picture. There are many ways to modify an Xbox, and to say that MS needs to keep track of all kinds of mods, and determine which are good and which are bad is simply not in their best interests. It's much easier more economical to just ban any Xbox that is not an original product, rather than risk damages incurred to the network by hackers, or by lawsuits from you guys because someone with a hacked box caused you damages.
Think about it - someone pays you to use your network, and insists that they be allowed to do anything they want because they are paying for it. You must consider the fact that the damages they could cause by using the network without limitations could create a higher monetary cost than what they are currently paying you. Is that worth the risk?
No, it isn't. MS wants to keep their network safe and secure, and they have every right to do so. Don't want to play ball by their clearly explained rules in this regard? Then you don't play XBL, and you don't have a legal leg to stand on.
"To end I will just say that I think most of the people here have heard of court cases regarding unfair and illegal wording of contracts which end users have to sign or have signed in order to use their property or paid for service, this is not a clear cut case and MS are NOT always in the RIGHT! "
I never said MS was always right, and in fact while I've been using an MS OS since DOS 6, I've never bought an MS OS since DOS 6. However, in this case, they are right, and to be honest, I completely agree with their choice to prevent moded XBoxes from their network. Considering the hacking going on around the world in general, they really can't afford the risk. And please, by all means, show me the law in any country that says a company in another country MUST let you use whatever equipment you want to get onto their network if you pay a subscription, even if the agreement you agreed to says you won't and can't.
I'll wait....[/quote]
i gave a link,regarding the legalities of our consoles,see previous posts,and you say backing up is "moot" how did you come to that conclusion? so you are saying you have never backed anything up,on your computer,recorded a TV show on your old VCR or DVD recorder?
now from what i am understanding from the M$ site and various other forums,they are banning randomly and modded xbox's,i fail to understand how a modded box can allow you to cheat,that seems to be M$ main legal standing(remember this is only from what i am understanding)now as stated by someone else,a modded box or even any other console,allows the playing of backed up disc's,OK fair enough "pirated" and legally owned back ups.so please enlighten me as to how you can cheat,even with a backed up copy?this is M$'s only answer to stop what they term as "illegal" ....modded consoles,now the people that have modded consoles,and play on live,may well have signed up in ignorance,knowing they had a modded box,but hey,at the end of the day,they are STILL paying CUSTOMERS,theres no denying that. IMO M$ are/will lose out in the end big time,whether it be legal procceedings or multi million dollar loses due to customers cancelling their subscriptions,and there aint no law from preventing them from doing that...well not here anyrate..so i believe half of your statement to be incorrect,in regards to people modding their boxes,and going online,just because you have a modded box in a legal country,and you play on live,M$ have to prove that you are playing with a backup,i can actually see this going to court if it arises here...don't hold me to this,but i have not heard of any one in oz land being banned as yet,i'm sure someone on here will inform me if they have,as i would find this very interesting,because of the way our laws on this is set up.
PS keep your eye out in various other places,for you cheaters out there,there sounds like i fix coming out very soon.J/K about all you cheaters,i just had to re-itterate,however the rest of the statement is true "wink"
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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22. May 2007 @ 15:57 |
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samuels
a few countries in Europe do allow backing up and the play of backed up stuff however the list is shrinking as the might of the media mafia spreads.
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eandtc
Newbie
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22. May 2007 @ 16:21 |
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and you say backing up is "moot" how did you come to that conclusion? so you are saying you have never backed anything up,on your computer,recorded a TV show on your old VCR or DVD recorder?
No. I did not say that.
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i fail to understand how a modded box can allow you to cheat,that seems to be M$ main legal standing
No. The main legal standing is that MS is limiting access to THEIR NETWORK solely to unmodded Xboxes, as is their right. It doesn't matter what the purpose of the mod was. This is why I said the reasons for modding the Box are moot. Get it now?
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"so please enlighten me as to how you can cheat,even with a backed up copy?
The purpose of the mod doesn't matter. What MS is saying is that, for whatever reason you chose to mod your box, doing so will prevent you from going onto their network, just like doing do voids your warranty. While they cannot physically restrain you from opening your Xbox, they can prevent you from using the modded Xbox on their network. Again, no one has cited the case law from the US or any other country saying that MS cannot limit access to THEIR NETWORK.
Your box and their network are two different things. Get to know the difference. Many others here have come to this understanding.
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samuels
Suspended permanently
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23. May 2007 @ 04:16 |
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[quote]and you say backing up is "moot" how did you come to that conclusion? so you are saying you have never backed anything up,on your computer,recorded a TV show on your old VCR or DVD recorder?
No. I did not say that.
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i fail to understand how a modded box can allow you to cheat,that seems to be M$ main legal standing
No. The main legal standing is that MS is limiting access to THEIR NETWORK solely to unmodded Xboxes, as is their right. It doesn't matter what the purpose of the mod was. This is why I said the reasons for modding the Box are moot. Get it now?
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"so please enlighten me as to how you can cheat,even with a backed up copy?
The purpose of the mod doesn't matter. What MS is saying is that, for whatever reason you chose to mod your box, doing so will prevent you from going onto their network, just like doing do voids your warranty. While they cannot physically restrain you from opening your Xbox, they can prevent you from using the modded Xbox on their network. Again, no one has cited the case law from the US or any other country saying that MS cannot limit access to THEIR NETWORK.
Your box and their network are two different things. Get to know the difference. Many others here have come to this understanding.[/quote]
no.. no....you seem to be missing or not comprehending what people are trying to say.....in actual fact it states on their own site and is spoken on many a forums,they are banning modded boxes as they are detected,but in this whole proccess they are banning innocent people with legit 360's also.so what if someones console is modded,they are still paying for a service provided by M$,they aren't cheating,any in some instances they are not violating any laws,OK maybe laws made up by M$,themselves ,but, hey i bet you have broken a law or two :)
so seriously whats the problem apart from a verbal consent,they are still receiving subscritions from "pirates" and countries like mine that allow modding,bottom line is they just want modded consoles out of the scene,but luckily for other countries that are allowed to mod their consoles,would have a hard time in court,as i seriously doubt any infringements could be found,because a subscription fee has been payed by these so called cheaters,iv'e been told it's something like $10-$12(AUD)per month,payed quite happily by what M$ calls illegal 360's and the so called "pirates" of the world
your explanation for "moot" still doesn't hold up,not with me anyrate.
since no one has corrected me,i'm still under the assumption no-one has been banned from oz land,maybe there is something in that for you,to ponder,or chew on...
no offence is intended towards you,this is just my opinion on the matter.
why carry on (M$) when their revenue from live is still being payed by EVERYONE,well was, until they went silly,because they can't get their own way globally?
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eandtc
Newbie
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23. May 2007 @ 06:34 |
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they are banning modded boxes as they are detected,but in this whole proccess they are banning innocent people with legit 360's also
Not on purpose. Networks aren't perfect. Such is life.
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so what if someones console is modded,they are still paying for a service provided by M$,they aren't cheating,any in some instances they are not violating any laws,OK maybe laws made up by M$,themselves
Why do people keep believing that MS is the only one that does this?
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but, hey i bet you have broken a law or two :)
Irrelevant to this discussion.
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your explanation for "moot" still doesn't hold up,not with me anyrate.
Everyone else understood it well enough.
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i'm still under the assumption no-one has been banned from oz land
Yet in this very same post, you said people with legitimate Xboxes are being banned. Interesting.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 23. May 2007 @ 06:35
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Senior Member
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23. May 2007 @ 12:49 |
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I totally understand that what MS puts in their contract, doesn't make it right or necessarily legal. However, like any business, Microsoft has the right to refuse their network service to anyone. It's ridiculous to think otherwise. (Btw, MS did not disable the network connection feature of your xbox, so IF there is another service provider, you will be able to connect to it).
About laws that make modding legal or whatever. Even if there is a law in some country that requires microsoft to allow modded xbox to xbl for whatever reason, why would microsoft agree to that? If any legal issue arises from that country, I'd imagine MS just back off and retract any service to that country.
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Junior Member
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23. May 2007 @ 12:51 |
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They really just banned the mac addy of the 360 nic card. So your 360 cant access their network.
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robtwilk
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23. May 2007 @ 16:29 |
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That was an exhausting read through this thread...
Service providers have many limitations on their service - which covers all types of services (cellular, cable, satellite, ISPs, etc.)
Are some of you suggesting that cell companies must allow you to use a modded cell phone - getting minutes for free or using someone else's account? Should the cable or dish provider allow you to use a modded cable box? Does your ISP allow you to modify your modem so you can share with all your neighbors? We have free speech here in America - should forums not be allowed to ban users? On a Toll Road, should you be able to drive thru without paying, just because you believe that roads should be a God given right?
With all of the private personal information passing through these services, I can't imagine companies risking exposure of that data to hackers. It is bad enough that identity fraud and theft is already out of control.
I am not accusing modded Xbox owners or anything, but it makes sense that a service provider can make rules that protect their network.
I remember the days when cable companies would come after people with modded cable boxes. They would shut off their service, no problem. They also changed the encryption, so modifed boxes would no longer work. What if you paid $500 for a modded box - can you force the cable company to keep the original encryption so you can use their service?
Service is something extended to you - not an inalienable right. If you choose to live by their rules and pay for the service, you get the service. If not, then no service.
It is true that contracts can be illegal and many people pursue these things in court. In many cases laws or rules are created for the greater good of all.
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samuels
Suspended permanently
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23. May 2007 @ 16:31 |
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[quote]they are banning modded boxes as they are detected,but in this whole proccess they are banning innocent people with legit 360's also
Not on purpose. Networks aren't perfect. Such is life.
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so what if someones console is modded,they are still paying for a service provided by M$,they aren't cheating,any in some instances they are not violating any laws,OK maybe laws made up by M$,themselves
Why do people keep believing that MS is the only one that does this?
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but, hey i bet you have broken a law or two :)
Irrelevant to this discussion.
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your explanation for "moot" still doesn't hold up,not with me anyrate.
Everyone else understood it well enough.
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i'm still under the assumption no-one has been banned from oz land
Yet in this very same post, you said people with legitimate Xboxes are being banned. Interesting.[/quote]you are still skimming over the top mate...banning legit consoles is NO EXSCUSE,if they are going to perform these actions,for lawsuit reasons,they need to make sure their NETWORK is functioning CORRECTLY,thats one downside for a lawsuit.
secondly,M$ is the only one doing this,Sony has been there and done that with our high courts,they have remied their problems to avoid another high court procceding.
thirdly,my comment about you breaking a law or two is relevant,because this is what the whole discussion/debate is about...isn't it??
"moot" don't think anyone understood that,and i still don't,so if you wouldn't mind,please explain more clearly "moot"
and finally you say in my statement Quote:
i'm still under the assumption no-one has been banned from oz land
Yet in this very same post, you said people with legitimate Xboxes are being banned. Interesting.[/quote]
what don't you understand about that,i was speaking in USA terms not my countries terms,to my belief NO-ONE has been banned in australia,modded or by mistake,to which should never happen in the first place for any COUNTRY..leaves M$wide open for a lawsuit,banning legit owners of 360's
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samuels
Suspended permanently
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23. May 2007 @ 16:41 |
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Originally posted by robtwilk:
That was an exhausting read through this thread...
Service providers have many limitations on their service - which covers all types of services (cellular, cable, satellite, ISPs, etc.)
Are some of you suggesting that cell companies must allow you to use a modded cell phone - getting minutes for free or using someone else's account? Should the cable or dish provider allow you to use a modded cable box? Does your ISP allow you to modify your modem so you can share with all your neighbors? We have free speech here in America - should forums not be allowed to ban users? On a Toll Road, should you be able to drive thru without paying, just because you believe that roads should be a God given right?
With all of the private personal information passing through these services, I can't imagine companies risking exposure of that data to hackers. It is bad enough that identity fraud and theft is already out of control.
I am not accusing modded Xbox owners or anything, but it makes sense that a service provider can make rules that protect their network.
I remember the days when cable companies would come after people with modded cable boxes. They would shut off their service, no problem. They also changed the encryption, so modifed boxes would no longer work. What if you paid $500 for a modded box - can you force the cable company to keep the original encryption so you can use their service?
Service is something extended to you - not an inalienable right. If you choose to live by their rules and pay for the service, you get the service. If not, then no service.
It is true that contracts can be illegal and many people pursue these things in court. In many cases laws or rules are created for the greater good of all.
we all know why M$ is doing it...plain and simple,to get rid of modded systems,their statement on their website ,said ...to get rid of "cheaters"and "modded" systems,i still can't work out how a person can cheat in a game,wheter it be a legit or modded system,call me dumb if you wish,but this is my understanding of M$ stance on all this banning
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samuels
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23. May 2007 @ 16:59 |
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this is from our live service
13. SERVICE OPERATION AND EQUIPMENT
"The Service may only be accessed with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console or by logging into your account via Xbox.com. If you are accessing the Service via an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console, you agree that you are using authorized software and hardware, and that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way (e.g., authorized repairs, upgrades and downloads). Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, modify, further sublicense, distribute or use for other purposes either the hardware or software associated with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console or the Service, is strictly prohibited and may result in cancellation of your account and/or your ability to access the Service via your original Xbox or Xbox 360 console, and the pursuit of other legal remedies by Microsoft. Microsoft may take any legal action it deems appropriate against users who violate Microsoft?s systems or network security or this contract or any additional terms as described in Section 2 above, and such users may also incur criminal and/or civil liability.
Microsoft reserves complete and sole discretion with respect to the operation of the Service. Microsoft may, among other things: (a) restrict or limit access to the Service; (b) retrieve information from the original Xbox or Xbox 360 console and any connected peripheral device used to log onto the Service as necessary to operate and protect the security of the Service, and to enforce this Agreement; and (c) upgrade, modify, withdraw, suspend, or discontinue any functionality or feature of the Service or any game from time to time without notice, which may involve the automatic download of related software directly to your original Xbox or Xbox 360 console, and which software may prevent your original Xbox or Xbox 360 console from accessing the Service, playing pirated games, or using unauthorized peripheral devices."
here we are authorized to modify our consoles by law,not by M$...so this can be very questionable in a court of law,as all live subcribers are playing legit(even with a modded console)they are still paying for a service.
now i haven't looked on any other M$ sites(country relevant) to see if the wording is the same,i'll get round to it sometime.
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samuels
Suspended permanently
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23. May 2007 @ 17:02 |
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Originally posted by samuels:
this is from our live service
13. SERVICE OPERATION AND EQUIPMENT
"The Service may only be accessed with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console or by logging into your account via Xbox.com. If you are accessing the Service via an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console, you agree that you are using authorized software and hardware, and that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way (e.g., authorized repairs, upgrades and downloads). Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse engineer, modify, further sublicense, distribute or use for other purposes either the hardware or software associated with an original Xbox or Xbox 360 console or the Service, is strictly prohibited and may result in cancellation of your account and/or your ability to access the Service via your original Xbox or Xbox 360 console, and the pursuit of other legal remedies by Microsoft. Microsoft may take any legal action it deems appropriate against users who violate Microsoft?s systems or network security or this contract or any additional terms as described in Section 2 above, and such users may also incur criminal and/or civil liability.
Microsoft reserves complete and sole discretion with respect to the operation of the Service. Microsoft may, among other things: (a) restrict or limit access to the Service; (b) retrieve information from the original Xbox or Xbox 360 console and any connected peripheral device used to log onto the Service as necessary to operate and protect the security of the Service, and to enforce this Agreement; and (c) upgrade, modify, withdraw, suspend, or discontinue any functionality or feature of the Service or any game from time to time without notice, which may involve the automatic download of related software directly to your original Xbox or Xbox 360 console, and which software may prevent your original Xbox or Xbox 360 console from accessing the Service, playing pirated games, or using unauthorized peripheral devices."
here we are authorized to modify our consoles by law,not by M$...so this can be very questionable in a court of law,especially if a person is using original games on live,even though the 360 has been modified,sure if people go taking games and sublicencing them out,etc,etc,they deserve to get banned,but in reality,who is really going to do this?as all live subcribers are playing legit(even with a modded console)they are still paying for a service.
now i haven't looked on any other M$ sites(country relevant) to see if the wording is the same,i'll get round to it sometime.
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samuels
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23. May 2007 @ 17:05 |
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sorry for the double post....i meant to hit edit tab,but instead hit qoute tab....once again my apoligies
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AfterDawn Addict
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23. May 2007 @ 17:16 |
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double post o.O
More like quintuple post! LOL :P
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robtwilk
Member
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24. May 2007 @ 09:07 |
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Is it really possible to cheat on a game using a modified Xbox 360?
I have always thought that some people in Halo 2 and now Halo 3 were a little tougher than I expected. Shoot a guy ten times and he doesn't die - they shoot you once and you're dead.
It's possible I'm just horrible at Halo, but my son is awesome and he has the same problems. He asks me if they're cheating and I tell him you can't cheat online. Maybe you can...
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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24. May 2007 @ 11:09 |
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Originally posted by robtwilk:
Is it really possible to cheat on a game using a modified Xbox 360?
I have always thought that some people in Halo 2 and now Halo 3 were a little tougher than I expected. Shoot a guy ten times and he doesn't die - they shoot you once and you're dead.
It's possible I'm just horrible at Halo, but my son is awesome and he has the same problems. He asks me if they're cheating and I tell him you can't cheat online. Maybe you can...
Cheating on MP games is not new and since the Xbox and 360 use MS products as a base to run its "easy" to hack it to cheat,I find MPing almost pointless so cheating on a MP game is beyond stupid IMO
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eandtc
Newbie
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24. May 2007 @ 12:10 |
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so this can be very questionable in a court of law,as all live subcribers are playing legit(even with a modded console)they are still paying for a service.
You go right on ahead and keep thinking that. I'm tired of talking past you.
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AfterDawn Addict
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24. May 2007 @ 12:30 |
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so this can be very questionable in a court of law,as all live subcribers are playing legit(even with a modded console)they are still paying for a service.
Not really you break the rules of the EULA and you can be tossed ,ever play wow? they are nazistic on abuse warnings and temp ban people for days just because of reports.
you can lose a months worth of play time just for ticking off some people,I do not know if its better now adays but...meh.
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