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Streaming format: Subs in M2TS or Divx, or am I screwed?
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i8beef
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16. April 2008 @ 14:59 |
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When I bought my PS3, one of the three main reasons I bought it was the ability to stream video to it. For the last two months, I have been beating my head against that wall. So after asking on numerous forums, I come here to humbly ask for assistance.
I have researched this extensively, and have narrowed my choices down. The REASONS for narrowing them to these are the following:
1. Video quality - I want DVD quality and space is not an issue
2. AC3 5.1 - I want the closest to the original audio stream as possible
3. Subtitles - I need to have subtitles. I'd prefer to not burn them in, as I want to avoid re-encoding if possible. If this ISN'T possible, then I need recommendations on the best way to do this to avoid any degradation of video quality
And as a nice to have:
4. FF/RW capability. I'd love chaptering, but don't think its an option.
Now GIVEN that, I am converting FROM .IFO/.VOB's. I am (mostly) agnostic on the choice of container / codec. Because of these needs I have decided:
.VOB - No subtitles and poor FF/REW capabilities = No go
.MP4 - Basically the same as .VOB
.AVI (Xvid) - If you have actually gotten one to work, I will bow to you now...
.AVI (Divx) - I got a black screen once. Closest I ever got
.M2TS - I am interested, but I have yet to have anyone answer the subtitles question for me: Can I embed them and turn them on and off?
I THINK DivX will come CLOSE to doing what I want, but I have NEVER found a way to make it work. Xvid I wrote off as a lost cause as well.
I have actually made an M2TS file with AutoMKV that played the video and the audio (AC3), but I could never select any subtitles. Also, the video was about half the size of the screen. I am assuming this is because I was converting a 720x480 video to 1280x720 or whatever 720p is.
So can someone answer THESE questions for me?
1. Can you embed subtitles in an M2TS file and have the PS3 select them and play them?
2. Can you convert a regular DVD VOB (non-hd) to M2TS at full screen, or is that a lost cause?
That should settle M2TS...
1. Is there a way to copy a video stream into a DivX file without compression, or at least very, very close?
2. Has ANYONE gotten a DivX movie to play with these features (subtitles, AC3), and if so can you point me at a guide?
And that should handle DivX
1. What is the best way to burn subtitles into an MP4 (As a last resort).
Please help. My head hurts...
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ProxxiM
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17. April 2008 @ 11:49 |
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I'd love to know this too, guys!
so if you know how to create .m2ts files with subs in it, burned-in of selectable, please let us know!
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Senior Member
3 product reviews
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17. April 2008 @ 12:21 |
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I'm in the same boat as both of you unfortunately. I've got a 1080P anime with only Japanese audio and overlayed subs.
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i8beef
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17. April 2008 @ 12:36 |
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Well, my main question is more than just method. I'll gladly move to the DivX or Bluray forum once I have the answer I want, which is basically, What is the best format to do this with?
M2TS looks promising, but can I (a) Do selectable subtitles, and (b) use a DVD resolution (480p) video stream in it?
Maybe no one really knows. I'd just be surprised that NO ONE has thought "Oh yea, I can't watch movie X because it has translation (forced) subs and I can't understand half of it" and has come up with a solution.
I was hoping that Ryu would hop in (as he wrote the M2TS thread sticky) and answer my M2TS questions... But I'm not picky, I'll take a good answer from anyone! :-)
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Senior Member
3 product reviews
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18. April 2008 @ 13:53 |
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Originally posted by i8beef:
Well, my main question is more than just method. I'll gladly move to the DivX or Bluray forum once I have the answer I want, which is basically, What is the best format to do this with?
M2TS looks promising, but can I (a) Do selectable subtitles, and (b) use a DVD resolution (480p) video stream in it?
Maybe no one really knows. I'd just be surprised that NO ONE has thought "Oh yea, I can't watch movie X because it has translation (forced) subs and I can't understand half of it" and has come up with a solution.
I was hoping that Ryu would hop in (as he wrote the M2TS thread sticky) and answer my M2TS questions... But I'm not picky, I'll take a good answer from anyone! :-)
A.) no unfortunately it dosent yet at this time support subtitles but the person behind it stated that he is currently working on giving it that capability.
B.) Its a nearly lossless converter so it should have any problems with any quality video.
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i8beef
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18. April 2008 @ 13:59 |
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Well, erg, I guess I asked the wrong question. A DVD is 720x480 or something like that. "Does an M2TS file HAVE to be at 1280x780" should have been my question. In which case, you would have to sort of upconvert the video yourself in the process, as 720x480 is less than 1280x780.
I STILL want to know that, but from what you just told me about M2TS and subtitles, I don't think its currently a viable option as (a) I'd have to wait for the author to get it working (probably pretty quick) and (b) for Sony to implement it (probably a decade or so).
That's unfortunate. So:
Is there a good way to burn subtitles into an M2TS, OR can someone suggest the best way to make a DivX file thats compatible with the PS3 with subtitles and AC3?
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Senior Member
5 product reviews
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18. April 2008 @ 16:55 |
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Originally posted by i8beef:
When I bought my PS3, one of the three main reasons I bought it was the ability to stream video to it. For the last two months, I have been beating my head against that wall. So after asking on numerous forums, I come here to humbly ask for assistance.
I have researched this extensively, and have narrowed my choices down. The REASONS for narrowing them to these are the following:
1. Video quality - I want DVD quality and space is not an issue
2. AC3 5.1 - I want the closest to the original audio stream as possible
3. Subtitles - I need to have subtitles. I'd prefer to not burn them in, as I want to avoid re-encoding if possible. If this ISN'T possible, then I need recommendations on the best way to do this to avoid any degradation of video quality
And as a nice to have:
4. FF/RW capability. I'd love chaptering, but don't think its an option.
Now GIVEN that, I am converting FROM .IFO/.VOB's. I am (mostly) agnostic on the choice of container / codec. Because of these needs I have decided:
.VOB - No subtitles and poor FF/REW capabilities = No go
.MP4 - Basically the same as .VOB
That's not true. A MP4 container seeks perfectly. It also supports chapter points and switchable subtitles (PS3 can't read subs from MP4 though).
Originally posted by i8beef:
.AVI (Xvid) - If you have actually gotten one to work, I will bow to you now...
Then start bowing! :-P
Originally posted by i8beef:
.AVI (Divx) - I got a black screen once. Closest I ever got
You can use AVIaddXSubs to create a DivX media format file with 5.1 AC3 sound and switchable subtitles. The PS3 will identify it as corrupted data but as soon as you hit play it will be fine! You can get this application from my downloads thread from the link on my signature (The complete HD (Blu-ray/HD-DVD) back-up and transcoding thread.). That thread also includes explanations for what each application does.
Originally posted by i8beef:
.M2TS - I am interested, but I have yet to have anyone answer the subtitles question for me: Can I embed them and turn them on and off?
The situation with M2TS is exactly the same as VOB is with DVD, in that it really belongs as part of the set of files to an authored Blu-ray disc. Yes the PS3 will play a raw M2TS media file but for all the extra features (DTS audio, switchable subtitles, chapters, menus etc.) you will need to author in the correct Blu-ray structure.
tsMuxeR can output Blu-ray and can also accept subtitles (presentation graphic stream). SUPread (these are also on my downloads thread) can convert text based subtitles to the format supported by tsMuxeR but only in 1080p. The author of tsMuxeR is working on the ability to import text based subtitles directly.
Originally posted by i8beef:
I THINK DivX will come CLOSE to doing what I want, but I have NEVER found a way to make it work. Xvid I wrote off as a lost cause as well.
DivX and Xvid are exactly the same thing.
Originally posted by i8beef:
I have actually made an M2TS file with AutoMKV that played the video and the audio (AC3), but I could never select any subtitles. Also, the video was about half the size of the screen. I am assuming this is because I was converting a 720x480 video to 1280x720 or whatever 720p is.
So can someone answer THESE questions for me?
1. Can you embed subtitles in an M2TS file and have the PS3 select them and play them?
As I answered above you will need to author in full Blu-ray structure. Unless by embed you mean hardcode them? In which case you can never turn them off as they become part of the video image.
Originally posted by i8beef:
2. Can you convert a regular DVD VOB (non-hd) to M2TS at full screen, or is that a lost cause?
Yes I believe that SD is ok to be authored as AVCHD (this is the format Blu-ray was based upon).
Originally posted by i8beef:
That should settle M2TS...
1. Is there a way to copy a video stream into a DivX file without compression, or at least very, very close?
No, DivX (and Xvid) are a different format to your source. DivX is mpeg4 (h263) and DVD's use mpeg2 compression, so re-encoding is unavoidable if you choose to use this format.
Originally posted by i8beef:
2. Has ANYONE gotten a DivX movie to play with these features (subtitles, AC3), and if so can you point me at a guide?
Yes I have, as I mentioned earlier use AVIaddXSubs from my downloads thread.
Originally posted by i8beef:
And that should handle DivX
1. What is the best way to burn subtitles into an MP4 (As a last resort).
There are many applications that can multiplex a subtitle stream into a MP4 container but it seems that the PS3 can not read subtitles from this format.
Originally posted by i8beef:
Please help. My head hurts...
So does mine now! Hehe... :-)
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i8beef
Newbie
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18. April 2008 @ 17:23 |
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Well that answers a lot of my questions... It appears M2TS will not do what I want (and building a whole Bluray architecture won't fit the Streaming bill: the point here is to stream and not have to copy / burn to disc).
I know that MP4 is supposed to support said features, but the PS3 does not / implements them poorly. Unless I'm an idiot. Does the PS3 actually do chaptering in an MP4? I knew about the subtitles thing though.
I also know DivX and Xvid are SUPPOSED to be the same thing. The PS3 just doesn't seem to TREAT them the same. I have tried every way I can to get an Xvid to play and I always get an unsupported data type. I've followed a whole lot of guides to try and do it too, but none of them have worked. I'd RATHER use Xvid because I don't want to deal with the commercial DivX, but at this point I don't care as long as I get it working. That and I've at least gotten a black screen and 0:00 length time on a video before with DivX, and only unsupported data type with Xvid.
The last question was a question on the best method to burn in subtitles to an MP4, meaning re-encode and insert them into it so they can't be turned on or off. I can hunt that down elsewhere though if I decide to go that way...
My question on getting a SD DVD to an M2TS file came from me actually getting it to work once. Only my video appears to be at 1280x780 while the actual content was centered at a 720x480 resolution, which is why I was asking if it's possible to have other resolutions in an M2TS, or if you'd have to enlarge (and thus lose quality) the image.
I was hoping this would be easy... but as I've read your DVD to DivX post, I see I'm gonna be running through lots of programs and doing lots of manual muxing. Boo...
==
So now I have one or two more questions:
Given that it looks like I'm gonna be starting a trek down the re-encode route, am I better off (a) sticking with MP4 and hard coding the subtitles in, (b) going with M2TS and either hard coding subs, or wait until this gets implemented by all parties (Meaning: Do you really think PS3 will implement it?), or (c) Should I move over to the DivX / Xvid forums and beg for help there?
Remember that video quality is my #1 priority. I haven't done a ton with this stuff, so I'm not sure where I'll get the best result from. Also, working FF/RW on a PS3 would be a really nice thing to have.
And I want to thank you Ryu, for taking a look. Now that I'm better informed I'm a lot closer to choosing a format. It's looking like DivX unless M2TS will pull through in the end.
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hypspaced
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7. October 2008 @ 05:51 |
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If this gives you any comfort: you are not the only one who bought the PS3 for media center and ended up with a crippled machine.
I was very enthousiastic about being able to play my DVD collection and the (legal) HD content I download from the internet from my home computer's hard drive or home NAS (I am an eco-geek and I don't like wasting DVD's).
Well... I FEEL DECEIVED. Not only PS3 doesn't support m2ts chapters and subs, mkv and other universal standards, it doesn't allow Linux operating systems (thus media player apps on linux) to access the GPU.
NOBODY TOLD ME THOSE WHEN I BOUGHT IT. Instead, we ended up with a half-assed "gaming" machine with non-vibrating controllers that requires €60 for each game. F*CK OFF SONY.
GO BUY A WII. I bought mine yesterday. It's only 576i resolution, but YOU WILL UNDERSTAND WHAT --FUN WITH YOUR FRIENDS-- MEANS.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 7. October 2008 @ 05:54
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i8beef
Newbie
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7. October 2008 @ 09:02 |
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Well, the PS3 wouldnt do the trick for me. So I ended up running some ethernet through the walls and extending my HDMI and USB from my actual computer to the family room using these little extender modules. Worked like a charm (with the exception of NVidia's drivers sucking for such things...).
So now I have a 5 terrabyte RAID5 array full of video that I just open on my PC's media players and watch downstairs as if I'm watching it in front of my computer. Full digital audio and everything. It's nice.
I am still peeved that the PS3 wouldn't do this from the start though. The media capabilities are being treated as a second class citizen in terms of development time at Sony. Understandable I guess, but it sucks that the most compelling feature for me and others gets a back seat to some of the other stuff their time goes into.
And of course the fact that Sony is about the least friendly entity to standards other than their own, or completely reinterpret them and mess them all up.
/rant
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Senior Member
5 product reviews
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8. October 2008 @ 16:48 |
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Originally posted by hypspaced:
If this gives you any comfort: you are not the only one who bought the PS3 for media center and ended up with a crippled machine.
I was very enthousiastic about being able to play my DVD collection and the (legal) HD content I download from the internet from my home computer's hard drive or home NAS (I am an eco-geek and I don't like wasting DVD's).
Well... I FEEL DECEIVED. Not only PS3 doesn't support m2ts chapters and subs, mkv and other universal standards, it doesn't allow Linux operating systems (thus media player apps on linux) to access the GPU.
NOBODY TOLD ME THOSE WHEN I BOUGHT IT. Instead, we ended up with a half-assed "gaming" machine with non-vibrating controllers that requires ?60 for each game. F*CK OFF SONY.
GO BUY A WII. I bought mine yesterday. It's only 576i resolution, but YOU WILL UNDERSTAND WHAT --FUN WITH YOUR FRIENDS-- MEANS.
It's not the machine that is having issues, it is you. Raw M2TS media files are not meant to support chapters and subs. You will need to author an AVCHD/Blu-ray disc for those features. Alternatively you could use a little app called AVCHD Me that modifies the Blu-ray folder structure to be directly playable from external media with the PS3.
In regards to MKV being a universal "standard", that term in itself is quite inaccurate. MKV (Matroska) is an open source, open container format and as such is not confined to any "standard". MKV not being standardised means it can support any combination of media streams. It would be near impossible to support that on a stand alone player. Can you provide a stand alone player that supports MKV? Or any other stand alone player that offers as much versatility as the PS3?
I am not here to defend the Sony PS3 like some lunatic fanboy but please get your facts straight before going off like a banana. You should look to yourself as the one making errors before you look to blame the PS3 or the person who sold you the PS3.
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hypspaced
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10. October 2008 @ 06:15 |
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Originally posted by Ryu77:
Raw M2TS media files are not meant to support chapters and subs.
M2TS format is based on the MPEG-2 TS standard. Thus it supports multiple streams, one of which could be subtitles of the appropriate format. PS3 doesn't support it. Hell, it doesn't even support DTS in M2TS !!!
http://www.file-extensions.org/m2ts-file-extension
Originally posted by Ryu77:
In regards to MKV being a universal "standard", that term in itself is quite inaccurate. MKV (Matroska) is an open source, open container format and as such is not confined to any "standard". MKV not being standardised means it can support any combination of media streams. It would be near impossible to support that on a stand alone player.
Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matroska
Matroska (MKV) IS AN OPEN S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D. Standardization doesn't mean confinement in supported formats. It's a CONTAINER largely based on EBML.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_standard
Originally posted by Ryu77:
Can you provide a stand alone player that supports MKV? Or any other stand alone player that offers as much versatility as the PS3?
You are kidding, right? The market is full of them. Check Popcorn hour, one of my favorites.
http://www.popcornhour.com/onlinestore/
Versatility? You need to have a DLNA server always running in a PC and you call this versatile solution? Or maybe eco-friendly?
Originally posted by Ryu77:
I am not here to defend the Sony PS3 like some lunatic fanboy but please get your facts straight before going off like a banana. You should look to yourself as the one making errors before you look to blame the PS3 or the person who sold you the PS3.
Well, you are defending it. Or you enjoy suffering. Probably the second. Combined with your limited knowledge on things -worse than not knowing anything at all- you are the banana of the forums.
Originally posted by Ryu77:
It's not the machine that is having issues, it is you.
In conclusion -from all of the above-, it seems you are the one with issues.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 10. October 2008 @ 06:18
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Senior Member
5 product reviews
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10. October 2008 @ 08:32 |
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hypspaced, I am fully aware of the media server devices and the like that are available. I think they are a great idea. However, I already have my solution which is far better than any stand alone. I have built myself a nice Media Centre/Home Theatre PC. Anyway, back to topic...
Matroska, is an open container format. My previous point was relating to the fact that MKV is an ongoing open source development project that could never be "fully" supported by a stand alone player, unless there was one that had a future proof design that could have it's hardware and software upgraded.
Quote from the link you posted...
"The Matroska Multimedia Container is an open standard free Container format, a file format that can hold an unlimited number of video, audio, picture or subtitle tracks inside a single file.[1] It is intended to serve as a universal format for storing common multimedia content, like movies or TV shows. Matroska is similar in conception to other containers like AVI, MP4 or ASF, but is entirely open in specification, with implementations consisting mostly of open source software."
Yes, I agree that it's great that there are vendors offering some support for Matroska, the key word here being "some". As I have made quite clear, there is no possible way to claim full support on a stand alone that isn't basically a PC. It's almost like saying I have an AVI player. We all know that there are many DivX certified devices available that play DivX within an AVI container but that doesn't mean that they will play AVI containing any other random media streams.
For a player to claim that it supports something means that it must have a standard on which media must be developed within and players manufactured to meet the criteria to play the media.
Where is the Matroska standardisation committee?
Originally posted by hypspaced:
Originally posted by Ryu77:
Can you provide a stand alone player that supports MKV? Or any other stand alone player that offers as much versatility as the PS3?
You are kidding, right? The market is full of them. Check Popcorn hour, one of my favorites.
http://www.popcornhour.com/onlinestore/
Versatility? You need to have a DLNA server always running in a PC and you call this versatile solution? Or maybe eco-friendly?
And which one of those can you play Next Generation Video Games on?
Ok, I think I have said enough. Maybe you are missing my point. Perhaps, I should have said fully supports Matroska. In my previous post, I meant you are having issues with the machine. It was not a personal attack. So please don't try to make it personal by saying I have limited knowledge. I have contributed quite a lot to these forums and there are many people here that appreciate my "limited" knowledge very much. If you want to challenge me on this topic further, let's take it up in PM.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 10. October 2008 @ 08:52
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hypspaced
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10. October 2008 @ 10:10 |
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Ryu77,
I don't have the need nor the time to challenge you. The point is that when somebody buys a PS3, gives ALOT of money for afew things.
I mean, when I bought my XBOX, I modded it just to install XBMC. With very little money, I have a first class Media Center that supports almost every media format (cannot play all HD content due to lack of processor power though). I could play past-gen games too. That I consider an excellent buy for that time.
On PS3, basic requirements like playback of the "de facto" non-pro in HD: MKV are not met. I don't want to convert anything. I just want to click on a file from my file server (AVI, MKV etc with subs) and watch it when I am home relaxing from work. I don't want to worry how many B-frames I used when encoding my collection, nor if I used 4.1 or 5.1 profile.
The thing is that I was more-or-less prepared on this. I mean, hey, it's Sony: they are the ones who put rootkits on audio cds, they wouldn't stick in supporting other media files, right?
That's OK. It's good for a gaming machine. If it had controllers that could vibrate (bought it january). Or maybe those Wii controllers, so we could play Tennis in HD.
Since I don't have enough time for games though, the biggest reason I bought PS3 is because it says that it supports Linux. So, a complete media center solution with blu-ray, no modchips etc. inside a slick black quiet device.
But HEY !! THEY BLOCKED access to the RSX on Linux! NO ACCELERATED GRAPHICS, NO FULL HD. We have to program in the framebuffer! Dream ends abruptly. In all this, I don't remember anywhere stating that RSX is blocked for other OS. If it did, I wouldn't have bought it.
PS. DAMN! I EVEN BOUGHT A LOGITECH MEDIABOARD BLUETOOTH KEYBOARD along with my PS3! Now it sits in the living room collecting dust :(
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