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Apple has killed audio quality, says Neil Young
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The following comments relate to this news article:
article published on 24 July, 2008
Rock star Neil Young made some interesting comments at the Fortune Brainstorm Tech Conference yesterday including his suggestion that music sound quality has been "dumbed down to Fisher-Price toy levels" since the inception of the iPod.
?Apple has taken a detour down the convenience highway,? Young said. ?Quality has taken a complete backseat - if it even gets in the car at all.?
Young ... [ read the full article ]
Please read the original article before posting your comments.
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AfterDawn Addict
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25. July 2008 @ 07:31 |
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ryu77:
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Blu-ray is already starting to become an established format. If an artist released a anthology on say 1 or 2 Blu-ray discs and had a RRP of say $50, do you think that would be worth it for an entire careers worth of work and mastered at higher quality than ever heard before
Yeah sure post everything on one disc so when it's damaged or lost or stolen the whoile collection is gone-poof! Plus the expense of buying the BR player and rippinng drives to attempt to back it up(Sony willprohibit such-until the hack) You think we're stupid here.
Music never sounded better played on Vinyl LP thru a tube type stereo amplifier. Real music-that todays generations have never
heard!
Edit: Long live analog music
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 25. July 2008 @ 07:33
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Senior Member
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25. July 2008 @ 09:41 |
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Originally posted by 13thHouR:
Originally posted by Ryu77:
Blu-ray is already starting to become an established format. If an artist released a anthology on say 1 or 2 Blu-ray discs and had a RRP of say $50, do you think that would be worth it for an entire careers worth of work and mastered at higher quality than ever heard before?
established, you really have got to be kidding, are you sony public relations by any chance?
As you can see, I clearly said starting to become established.
I would consider approx. 1000 titles available starting to become established.
http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/
Oh yes, I am Sony public relations that just felt the need to start two threads (links in my signature) on backing up Blu-ray discs. I just love helping people rip my own company. That's why we're so rich!
Too many people just want to argue and prove how good their opinion is by trying to make others look silly. My first post here never attempted to insult or offend anyone. I wanted to post in theme with the article and since then I feel like it's been nothing but a Childish affair.
Ok, let's turn this into something constructive (open forum)...
What would make the best next generation music format? And why?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 25. July 2008 @ 10:08
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AfterDawn Addict
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25. July 2008 @ 10:18 |
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Quote:
What would make the best next generation music format? And why?
Switching from CD to a DVD Sound with full 196 KHz/24 bit would be best, but using a standard type 5 DVD instead of Blu-Ray. Blu-Ray for just sound alone is overkill because even the most challenging HD sound track can easily fit on a type 5 disc, and a Blue Laser is not needed to play them back. This way standard DVD can be upgraded to include HD sound formats, and a type 5 will also play on Blu-Ray players. To start selling music on a Blu-RAy disc would be yet another way for the music companies to begin gauging the public by selling over priced content. I just find the notion of music discs selling for $25 each repugnant when they should be selling for about $10.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
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atomicxl
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25. July 2008 @ 10:55 |
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Originally posted by rlessmue:
... now keep in mind regarding ipod users:
a) What percentage of the people who listen to ipod music can:
1) hear any sounds outside the range of 20Hz to 20kHz
2) rip music to 320kbps to listen to on their ipods
3) use "studio quality" speakers to listen to their music
(when they are not listening to their ipods)
4) think that the ipod is the best audio gear that has come along
b) Of these people (above):
1) have they ever heard the difference between a live studio
recording and the finished product (cd)
2) able to understand the technical difference
(aside from hearing it, and being able to distinguish the difference)...
Awesome take, at least your's is on topic...
Alot of that is true, but I think a normal person could tell the difference between CD quality and even a compressed HD audio (with compressed HD winning). Maybe not with iPod ear buds, but hooked up to a decent stereo (like $150+) they could hear a difference. Now, I don't think the difference justifies a more than $1-3 increase in price of an album though.
DVD-Audio shot itself in the foot when it decided to not be compatible with the millions of DVD players out there. Blu-ray might have a chance, but I think they'd need to include free downloads for regular MP3 and HD versions of their product.
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wanttono
Junior Member
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25. July 2008 @ 12:08 |
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Hi All
I've been around for the 78's to the blue ray's and as far as Music quality goes, it has suffered, quality was at peak with LP's (with the mentioned drawbacks) then when i heard my first cda i could tell the difference between the lows and highs
any modification of the instruments or vocals
is not true music
Frank
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Pnub
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25. July 2008 @ 12:18 |
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What I don't get is that a bunch of people are complaining that Apple is ruining music. Apple provides a convenient and easy way to get music onto your portable player. I haven't seen many joggers with vinyl for optimum quality. It's all about getting what you want for it's use. For your stereo get what you want vinyl, Cd, or whatever. Realistically most people don't care, and you can't blame apple for it's popularity, they cater to portable mp3/aac players. Thats what it really comes down to.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 25. July 2008 @ 12:20
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varnull
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25. July 2008 @ 13:17 |
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Analog all the way.. ever heard a sheffield direct cut lp on a Linn deck with quad11's and a stacked pair of els speakers?.. I have and will never forget the experience. It cost a lot to have anything above average for analog amplification but in the digital age the hardware quality has dropped to match the poor input quality. I believe the peak for vinyl sound quality was around 79-85, after that the plastic became too thin.. the last few vinyl lp's I have sound pretty poor.. lightly cut, lacking modulation depth due to the thin plastic.
You also have that direct link back to the performance.. what you are hearing is the actual sound made at the time, not some electronic interpretation of it, no matter how quickly sampled, it is still split up and recreated later.
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eatsushi
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25. July 2008 @ 13:36 |
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Originally posted by varnull:
the last few vinyl lp's I have sound pretty poor.. lightly cut, lacking modulation depth due to the thin plastic..
I never buy anything that's less than 180 grams. Vinyl still sounds good as long as you get the 180 to 200 gram pressings:
http://www.musicdirect.com/category/15
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Fiji5555
Junior Member
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25. July 2008 @ 17:29 |
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ryu77:
once again, I will point out that the article had already mentioned Neil Youngs plan to use Blu-ray...
13thHouR
ok, an artist that is old and obsolete jumps on the "new buzz word format" for some free advertising just as he used the 9/11 attack to get free press before.
WTF? 13thHouR YOU sir are a complete blitering IDIOT so say that Neil Young is obsolete and to say he used 9/11 for free press is the most foul thing to come from your mouth or anyone elses. Neil Young is one of the FEW TRUE patriots we have left in this country that will stand up and sing about freedom and who stands up to the current absolutly horrid government officials we have that are ruining our lives. If you can't see that then you SIR are already a sheeple that does whatever Bush and Co say without a whimper. IDIOT.........oh and to keep this on topic, Neil's right in that today's music and how it's recorded and played back is FAR from being as good as it should be. I hear all sorts of distortion and over clipped music on my Sansa Clip and it's the way it was recorded........they try to make it LOUDER to compete with everyone else and or are too lazy or deaf to notice the end product.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 25. July 2008 @ 17:34
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AfterDawn Addict
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25. July 2008 @ 17:35 |
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Fiji5555
Except for some of your adjectives I am with you all the way. I've been a Neil Young fan for longer than I care to reveal, and he has always been a socially conscious person who put his money where his mouth is.
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xnonsuchx
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25. July 2008 @ 17:39 |
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't recall Neil Young complaining that Sony Walkmans or even minicassette players in general were ruining music because it wasn't anywhere near the quality of reel-to-reel! :-)
Mini cassettes were never used for music, just voice, and most cassettes were like what you do when you rip a CD for use on your portable player. I too prefer to buy CD's and make my own content for my portable player. I know every back system known for both CD and DVD but I still prefer to have originals.
Ooops! Yeah, I meant to say "compact cassette"...I probably shoulda just said "cassette" to avoid any confusion. :-)
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llongtheD
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25. July 2008 @ 19:49 |
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@Ryu77
I know this is off topic, but are you in some way affiliated with Sony? I seems like everytime you make a post, you are pleading blu-rays case.
As I said when I posted earlier, I don't really think its possible to get the sound quality out of solid state electronics that you can out of a quality turntable, and a tube amp. I could be wrong, and I just haven't heard anything that matches is yet.
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25. July 2008 @ 19:55 |
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I don't really think its possible to get the sound quality out of solid state electronics that you can out of a quality turntable, and a tube amp. I could be wrong,
Certainly not with the warmth which used to be referred to as musicality. A class "A" discreet circuitry all Mosfet amplifier has no equal for sound quality.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 25. July 2008 @ 19:57
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AfterDawn Addict
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25. July 2008 @ 22:40 |
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@eatsushi
great vinyl link. I have about 200 pristine LPs from 60'-80'. I could only hope they were worth 30-50 bucks apiece.
I wonder what my "Little Black Sambo" double 78s with story book is worth? Alas the "Peter and The Wolf" set is missing a 78.
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Senior Member
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26. July 2008 @ 09:10 |
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Originally posted by llongtheD:
@Ryu77
I know this is off topic, but are you in some way affiliated with Sony? I seems like everytime you make a post, you are pleading blu-rays case.
No I'm not affiliated with Sony at all. I do work in A/V retail though.
I just love HD and I rate quality as the most important factor for any form of home entertainment. I have said this many times before that if HD-DVD had ended up as the format of choice, I would have not hesitated in adopting this format. Actually, I bought a Blu-ray/HD-DVD combo PC drive so I could convert HD-DVD to Blu-ray. There are quite a few nice titles available on HD-DVD that are definitely worth the trouble of re-authoring.
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DieMPAA
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29. July 2008 @ 00:12 |
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While I'm sympathetic to Neil Young's complaint, he really should lay the blame with the music industry. They fought new technology instead of embracing and improving. In their scramble to catch up, they've had to accept the terms that the hardware manufacturer gave to them. In any case, I don't remember Neil Young complaining too hard about the audio quality of eight track and audio cassettes when he was making money off them when people were listening to his music in their crappy car stereos or jogging in their old Walkmans.
Don't cry too hard Neil. HD music is the next wave. It would oost too much money for most people except rich audiophiles, but would allow them to appear reasonable on the issue of unprotected MP3s, but also open a revenue stream for high end users and attract first adopters and with memory getting cheaper will eventually push music HD disk/format prices back to the same relatively ridiculous levels of 1998.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 29. July 2008 @ 00:18
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Akashic
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29. July 2008 @ 02:01 |
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"instead of wasting money on a blu-ray player to play compressed glorified mp3's, why not just stick with the relatively cheap CD player that has a 24bit true multi-bit DAC & is already uncompressed sound"
Errr.... HUH?!
After reading through the entire thread, I'm under the assumption that some confusion via certain individuals is continually rehashed regarding quality related terminology.
192kHz has NO relation to 192kBit compression
CD = 44.1kHz / 16bit / 2.0
DVD-Audio allows for both 96kHz / 24bit / 5.1 or 192kHz /24bit / 2.0
Blu-ray allows for 192kHz / 24bit / 5.1
Yes, for the convenience folk, 192kHz is overkill. (thus, enjoy your i-tune purchases happily)
For the HD folk who grew up experiencing a proper vinyl pressing through a warm sounding amp and audiophile quality speakers and cabling, well... hell yeah! I'm looking forward to contemporary releases from technology obsessed production room wizards that'll take advantage of the greater spectrum of sound that's available not just in the creation phase, but now conveyable at the end point via the music fans up-to-spec hardware.
Ultra-micro-positional audio, boo-yah!!
"too much money for most people except rich audiophiles"
Umm... you can be a -poor- audiophile and still be able to enjoy semi-bleeding edge HD quality audio/video with a lack of not too many other $-sucking vices combined with smart discount hardware purchasing. (I fall into the under-poverty-line tax bracket, so I can say full-heartedly that it can be done) [addendum: living in a non-major city without skyhigh rent kinda helps too , though...]
Though for the record, Neil Young is Canadian and a 'patriot' mostly only to those that never bothered to actually fully read the lyrics to certain key songs...
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Senior Member
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29. July 2008 @ 06:53 |
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Originally posted by Akashic:
"instead of wasting money on a blu-ray player to play compressed glorified mp3's, why not just stick with the relatively cheap CD player that has a 24bit true multi-bit DAC & is already uncompressed sound"
Errr.... HUH?!
After reading through the entire thread, I'm under the assumption that some confusion via certain individuals is continually rehashed regarding quality related terminology.
192kHz has NO relation to 192kBit compression
CD = 44.1kHz / 16bit / 2.0
DVD-Audio allows for both 96kHz / 24bit / 5.1 or 192kHz /24bit / 2.0
Blu-ray allows for 192kHz / 24bit / 5.1
Yes, for the convenience folk, 192kHz is overkill. (thus, enjoy your i-tune purchases happily)
For the HD folk who grew up experiencing a proper vinyl pressing through a warm sounding amp and audiophile quality speakers and cabling, well... hell yeah! I'm looking forward to contemporary releases from technology obsessed production room wizards that'll take advantage of the greater spectrum of sound that's available not just in the creation phase, but now conveyable at the end point via the music fans up-to-spec hardware.
Ultra-micro-positional audio, boo-yah!!
"too much money for most people except rich audiophiles"
Umm... you can be a -poor- audiophile and still be able to enjoy semi-bleeding edge HD quality audio/video with a lack of not too many other $-sucking vices combined with smart discount hardware purchasing. (I fall into the under-poverty-line tax bracket, so I can say full-heartedly that it can be done) [addendum: living in a non-major city without skyhigh rent kinda helps too , though...]
Though for the record, Neil Young is Canadian and a 'patriot' mostly only to those that never bothered to actually fully read the lyrics to certain key songs...
You, my friend seem to be the only person that has understood my point on this thread. :-)
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sheri1983
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29. July 2008 @ 08:58 |
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"Well, I hope Neil Young will remember
A Southern man don't need him around anyhow "
Here is the problem, Mr. Young: 99.9% of the population are not elitist audiophiles and they think MP3s sound pretty darn good. They are also more than willing to "suffer" through low quality for cheap, convenient formats.
For better or for worse, MP3 is here to stay for a good long time. Instead of trying to kill the MP3 format (and its ilk), the music industry could have tried sculpting it into a better format. They didn't, so we'll have to live with what we've got.
iTunes is satisfactory for most of the general population. They feel it's quick, easy, relatively inexpensive, and acceptable in quality. Many also like the fact that they know for sure that it's totally legal.
Sorry, Mr. Young. Apple didn't kill audio quality. They just profited from its death. If you and your industry cronies had played your cards right, you'd be in the driver's seat, but now the industry has "taken a complete backseat - if it even gets in the car at all."
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 29. July 2008 @ 09:00
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AfterDawn Addict
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29. July 2008 @ 16:09 |
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Neil young was born in Canada but he's been an American citizen for quite a long time. One doesn't have to have been born here to be a patriot. Thomas Paine and Alexander Hamilton were both born in England and yet they were both patriots.
I read Neil Young's statements and he wasn't outright trashing portable formats because they were portable, he was doing it because he believed that better sound could be achieved and he's right.
This doesn't mean that he was advocating that individuals shouldn't continue to enjoy there portable players. I do every time I sit in a lobby somewhere waiting for an appointment
Quote:
DVD-Audio allows for both 96kHz / 24bit / 5.1 or 192kHz /24bit / 2.0
Regarding the differences between 44.1 KHz/16 bit and196KHz/96KHz/24 bit quality. 196KHz/96KHz/24 bit quality are just as inexpensive and easy to record and reproduce as 44.1 KHz/16, and would cost no more to purchase. Both could be stored on a standard type 5 DVD, and since most people now use their DVD players as CD players those too are inexpensive and all too common. I was advocating DVD sound or 96 KHz/24 bit. You don't have to be rich to purchase decent sound equipment; it just has to be good enough to reproduce music to its fullest. This means with good signal to noise playback, good dynamic range, and reasonably low Transient intermodulation distortions.
Listening to recorded music is about using technology to come as close as possible to reproducing the experiences of a live performances in ones living areas?. To create this illusion studio tech's use a combination of miking techniques, digital delays, wet rooms, and mix down over decent sound systems, Panning, time delay, and reverb are used to create the illusion of a sound field referred to as imaging. When music is overcompressed it is generally meant to make it playable where uncompressed music will choke.
One it is often done to improve playback on AM radios so that one can hear both high and low frequencies at about the same volume, and to eliminate phase distortion. Small players have difficulties with high levels of dynamic range because low frequencies and high frequencies get buried by the middle range. To help eliminate this problem music is compressed so that there are fewer variances between the different frequencies which also allows it to be played louder or rather sound louder. Quality sound systems don't require compression because they can play the full dynamic range of music at a volume that creates a balance between HF,MF, and LF. The loss of music content in most portable storage formats is as high as 80% or greater.
As someone stated earlier, I also prefer to own the actual CD and do my own ripping and compressing. I also stated earlier that I would like to see music move from the now dated CD to the superior 96 KHz/24 bit DVD sound which is not overkill for someone whose eardrums aren?t made of cardboard. There was a time when VHS was good enough for some, and then along came DVD and it changed. Now we have Blu-Ray, and ?the beat goes on? Where itunes might not be good for the future of music is that it is killing what used to be called albums which are a collection of works on a single storage media. Can anyone here imagine what would happen to Pink Floyd?s ?Dark Side of The Moon? if the songs were first individually released on itunes? It would be the end of concept albums.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 30. July 2008 @ 13:55
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Senior Member
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30. July 2008 @ 09:43 |
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Originally posted by llongtheD:
Uh, not everyone can afford a "real tube amplifier" and an audiophile quality turntable to spin that vintage vinyl Neil. Like a couple of the other posters noted, be glad someone is keeping that dinosaur shit alive.
For what you pay for that over priced iPod you should get a high quality system sorry but your wrong here.
Neil hits the head square and this has been my biggest complaint with most of the flash/micro drive players. I prefer WMA lossless (variable bitrate) and the size isn't horrible but the problem is the audio player?s quality of reproduction which shouldn't be the problem since low amplifier design should have much better specs and sound quality, THD & frequency range. Its obvious that pretty and small is their ONLY concern and the average user thinks 128 is OK, what a joke, wake up please. If you could here my HiFi system you would never consider such cheap crap.
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13thHouR
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30. July 2008 @ 13:31 |
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Originally posted by Akashic:
192kHz has NO relation to 192kBit compression
CD = 44.1kHz / 16bit / 2.0
DVD-Audio allows for both 96kHz / 24bit / 5.1 or 192kHz /24bit / 2.0
Blu-ray allows for 192kHz / 24bit / 5.1
Yes, for the convenience folk, 192kHz is overkill. (thus, enjoy your i-tune purchases happily)
For the HD folk who grew up experiencing a proper vinyl pressing through a warm sounding amp and audiophile quality speakers and cabling, well... hell yeah! I'm looking forward to contemporary releases from technology obsessed production room wizards that'll take advantage of the greater spectrum of sound that's available not just in the creation phase, but now conveyable at the end point via the music fans up-to-spec hardware.
Ultra-micro-positional audio, boo-yah!!
"too much money for most people except rich audiophiles"
Umm... you can be a -poor- audiophile and still be able to enjoy semi-bleeding edge HD quality audio/video with a lack of not too many other $-sucking vices combined with smart discount hardware purchasing. (I fall into the under-poverty-line tax bracket, so I can say full-heartedly that it can be done) [addendum: living in a non-major city without skyhigh rent kinda helps too , though...]
I know the difference between sample rate and compression, it appears that you have failed to understand that i was referring to the topic of using compression to enable devices to squeeze more music onto the portable players thus reducing quality. did you even read the topic or are you just replying to Ryu77 's posts to give his posts credit?
All you need a the PC you already own, a source to rip from and the flac codec, and you can have whatever quality you want streamed to any device in your home or any where in the world via a slingbox.
the problem is that manufacturers keep telling ppl that you need this or that but in reality all you need is the pc you own but the morons that corporations feed on keep getting suckered time and again by flashy marketing campaigns and the "my penis is bigger than yours" mentality of owning a certain thing.
you do realise that for it to be of any good quality there still needs to be a relatively decent dac and output.
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Senior Member
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31. July 2008 @ 09:32 |
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Originally posted by 13thHouR:
I know the difference between sample rate and compression, it appears that you have failed to understand that i was referring to the topic of using compression to enable devices to squeeze more music onto the portable players thus reducing quality. did you even read the topic or are you just replying to Ryu77 's posts to give his posts credit?
13thHouR, I'm pretty sure that Akashic was directing that at lynchGOP...
Originally posted by lynchGOP:
Ok..........now I'm getting tired of people saying, implying, doing stupid things. In this case............THE COMMENT IS JUST STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The title of this article is "Apple has killed audio quality"
Of course 192Khz, 24bit, 8 channel lossless audio is 'good enough' but that is irrelevant of this article. SO PAY ATTENTION!
Apple doensn't offer that. It's 128Khz, 16-bit, 2 channel and you pay extra for the higher quality only RECENTLY offered, without DRM, and few in number I'm sure.
The only part of your hair-brained comment I agree with, and I'm sure every one else does too is the "quality is always of the highest importance."
Originally posted by 13thHouR:
All you need a the PC you already own, a source to rip from and the flac codec, and you can have whatever quality you want streamed to any device in your home or any where in the world via a slingbox.
the problem is that manufacturers keep telling ppl that you need this or that but in reality all you need is the pc you own but the morons that corporations feed on keep getting suckered time and again by flashy marketing campaigns and the "my penis is bigger than yours" mentality of owning a certain thing.
you do realise that for it to be of any good quality there still needs to be a relatively decent dac and output.
Of course you can do that with a PC. I have a Home Theatre PC myself. I think they're great.
I guess the point I was trying to make is that there are better alternatives available for digital audio now. The feeling I got from the article was that of forward movement. I was trying to convey my thoughts to the potential of Blu-ray. These being... 1) Higher resolution audio as a mandatory feature (as opposed to SACD/DVD-A being an optional feature on players) 2) Greater storage capacity per disc.
What I don't get is all the hostility towards someone who mentions Blu-ray. It almost seems like there is a fascist movement towards an "optical disc format". Do you see how silly that sounds?
Let's examine the facts pertaining only to audio as that is what the article is about...
- Does Blu-ray offer lossless audio as a standard feature?
- Does Blu-ray offer the highest capacity for an optical disc?
Isn't anybody interested in evolution towards digital media?? Don't you want to see and take advantage of developments in quality for home entertainment?
I seriously don't get it. As soon as you mention the word "Blu-ray", it's almost as if you are committing a crime and it's guaranteed that some silly person on these forums will attack you for doing so and try with all of their might to make you look like a fool for backing this format.
Are we not allowed to take advantage of better quality when it's available?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 31. July 2008 @ 09:36
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AfterDawn Addict
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31. July 2008 @ 09:54 |
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I haven't seen that much hostility toward Blu-Ray all that I've stated is that it is impractical since a standard Type 5 DVD could hold the same audio quality that would play on any DVD Player including Blu-Ray. In fact an entire musical Album could fit on a single Mini DVD with the highest quality sound. Now how's that for being portable? Sound of the highest quality alone takes up no where near the room that video does. A type 5 solution just seems to be a very sensible route that requires no extra expense by the industry or home users to take advantage of, but it will also provide the quality that those of us who will spend a little extra on equipment can also take advantage of.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
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2. August 2008 @ 13:29 |
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I am totally lost here, of course I do not understand more than half of the things you guys are talking about but thats ok thats how we learn, but to explain to someone like myself and yes most people are like myself, what is the advantage of putting or buying music on a dvd or bluray, I just dont get it, I tought that music cd's were top dog, and yes as somebody said earlier, I also own about 300 lp's from mostly 60's and some 70's, half of them I still haven't even opened yet, bought many at the local px shops at our military bases, there were 99 cents for a new album, lp's still sound good except for an occasional hiss or pop.
I guess the bottom line is really whats convenient for most folks today, my nephew when he rides with me sometimes hookes up his mps player to my car radio, I like those little mp3's, except I dont even know how to turn one on let alone understand them, all those so called portables are nice with the on the go senerio, but when I really want to get into the nitty gritty and listen to some serious music, a lot of you gys are right, a good system, some great lp's and cd's, I like them both, cant be beat.
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