Originally posted by bdoggie08:

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That's Why I got a PS3 and a Wii, Not worth the hassle or the price. I hate M$ anyways, they suck bad system, bad business. Hope that they learn, and realize they can't release faulty and crappy products...vista..cough..cough..

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Originally posted by leo8013:

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The problem isn't that they are fixing the machines and extended warranties (Which is a very GOOD thing on their part), its the fact they knew about the problem and let the machine go to market and defrauding the consumer. What they did was right but the machines are still having the same problem so its not fixing but a band-aid. If you piss off enough people you will finally get sued. If you were to find out who is in on the class action lawsuit it is more in likely the people who sent in the units multiple times not just once and they are just tired of it.

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Originally posted by DarkJello:

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I really feel like Microsoft already did more than you could ask out of any company to satisfy the consumer. This case isn't going anywhere if it is even heard by a court.

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The lawsuit cites articles published in credible gaming trade journals each of which show that Microsoft knew in November 2005 that over 50 percent of the initial sales launch Xbox 360 consoles were defective.

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Originally posted by windsong:

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I cant believe Microshit STILL has not fixed the RROD. I never bought the xflop for this reason..I just decided to hold onto my Wolfdale 3.8ghz XP monster and invest in a 1TB hard drive instead. Result? All my games play better than 1080P and if something breaks..ram..mb..hd, I dont have to ship it back to microsoft to fix it. I fix it myself! This in addition to the onslaught of great pc games coming: Dragon Age, Diablo 3, Saced 2, Divine Divinity 2, Dead Space, Fallout 3, Far Cry 2..list goes on and on. Anyone think that people will think twice before invesing in Microsofts new next next gen system 2 years from now?

Oh, and then there is the Mame emulator with all the kickass CHDs!

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Originally posted by gnovak1
Does anyone know how Microsoft is fixing the RROD problems? Are they putting those new Jasper chips in them? If not, what guarantee that this won't happen again to those XBoxs that got repaired.[/quote:

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They are replacing the mobo's with either new or refurbished mobo's.

...then again with all the multiple failures people are experiencing, maybe they are doing what the good news/bad news sergeant told the troops:

Men, I have some good news and some bad news. The good news is that we all get a change of underwear today.

The bad news is Jones, you change with Smith, Smith you change with Rogers....

Originally posted by varnull:

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I like those people who say "everybody" who bought a first release 360 had problems with it...

What a load of total crap.. The failure rate against the total sales figures seems to be a little high at around the 1% mark... without numbers.. accurate numbers from M$ that is an educated guess from the number of first release batch and later ones I see through my workshop Unacceptable for consumer electronics where the accepted fail under waranty period is suggested in manufacturers literature at 0.3%

M$ handled the situation badly to begin with.. but this lawsuit is a real no go.. they will string it out and laugh all the way to the bank. This is the kind of stupidity which keeps lawyers in business.. Every faulty console is an item in it's own right.. and a customer complaint x 1.. The judge will probably throw it out as normal consumer laws cover all these problems.

If people want to bring a class action against M$ then why not pick something worthwhile.. Like antitrust and compulsory bundling of software and operating systems through kickback manipulation and collusion with retailers?

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Originally posted by chubbyInc:

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In other news Microsoft has slashed prices on the consoles through Dell.
$169 for Arcade,
$249 for Pro, and
$329 for Elite.

I had RROD on first machine and wasn't covered under warranty.
second machine had RROD sent it in for free got back a new machine.
Seems to work fine now.

Too many people in here all flamed up over nothing.
As for that lawsuit, I don't think there is probable grounds to proceed. Xbox is fixing their mistakes at their cost.

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Originally posted by varnull:

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I like those people who say "everybody" who bought a first release 360 had problems with it...

What a load of total crap.. The failure rate against the total sales figures seems to be a little high at around the 1% mark... without numbers.. accurate numbers from M$ that is an educated guess from the number of first release batch and later ones I see through my workshop Unacceptable for consumer electronics where the accepted fail under waranty period is suggested in manufacturers literature at 0.3%

M$ handled the situation badly to begin with.. but this lawsuit is a real no go.. they will string it out and laugh all the way to the bank. This is the kind of stupidity which keeps lawyers in business.. Every faulty console is an item in it's own right.. and a customer complaint x 1.. The judge will probably throw it out as normal consumer laws cover all these problems.

If people want to bring a class action against M$ then why not pick something worthwhile.. Like antitrust and compulsory bundling of software and operating systems through kickback manipulation and collusion with retailers?

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Originally posted by russtafa:

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yes they screwed up, they have fixed it. inconvenience yes, lawsuit material no. the fact is no matter the rrod it is still a better system than the ps3, and all of you will still buy microsoft products. this lawsuit will do nothing but make the average price for a game or piece of software increase. its always funny how we sue then we gripe when games cost so much, or cars, or insurance, or medical, or..................... you hurt general public in the end. i had rrod and complained they fixed my xbox and sent me a free game, and controller. they also extended warranty on my xbox pro and elite at no cost. sony told everyone to eat it when 2.4 release corrupted there systems. oh wait did they fix all of them at no cost hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. similair, amazing. leave m$ alone your just pissed because you didnt think of it and they have a pile of money and its all because of you. nice.

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Originally posted by varnull:

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I like those people who say "everybody" who bought a first release 360 had problems with it...

What a load of total crap.. The failure rate against the total sales figures seems to be a little high at around the 1% mark... without numbers.. accurate numbers from M$ that is an educated guess from the number of first release batch and later ones I see through my workshop Unacceptable for consumer electronics where the accepted fail under waranty period is suggested in manufacturers literature at 0.3%

M$ handled the situation badly to begin with.. but this lawsuit is a real no go.. they will string it out and laugh all the way to the bank. This is the kind of stupidity which keeps lawyers in business.. Every faulty console is an item in it's own right.. and a customer complaint x 1.. The judge will probably throw it out as normal consumer laws cover all these problems.

If people want to bring a class action against M$ then why not pick something worthwhile.. Like antitrust and compulsory bundling of software and operating systems through kickback manipulation and collusion with retailers?

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As usual you manage to hit the nail on the head Varnull- another excellent post. I personally think 1% is a bit low but perhaps you're not far wrong.

What disturbs me most about the article is it's astonishing lack of information. Who exactly is bringing in the lawsuit. Is it a consortium of disgruntled owners or is it just an individual? "California is seeking an order that "Microsoft disgorge all profits attributable to its sale of the Xbox 360, as well as that Microsoft publicly announce and implement a refund program in California..." ". It kind of sounds like the state itself is doing it!! Perhaps $ony are behind it. They wouldn't care if they lost- it's good publicity.

I guess people forget a gaming console is not quite like a normal appliance. M$ were desperate to establish an install base to and get the platform up and running. You have to factor in the consequences of such a thing... it's not simple at all. If they knew how bad it was perhaps they felt it was worth it anyway.

I tend to think they didn't know how bad it would be. For several reasons. One, they would have moved faster on the 3yr warranty. Two, they would have made sure they returned better replacements- and this I believe is where the real problem lies; creating unexpected enormous goodwill issues.

Articles/books have been written citing the lack of electronic factory testing as the problem. But as someone that repairs consoles for a living, I can tell you that it comes down to the building up of heat from placing the optical drive directly above the GPU. The mainboard warps (to a certain unpredictable manner) popping the chips. The springs under the heatsinks contribute to this as well. Sure you can use towels and heatguns even replace the springs with screws but the flux/solder situation coupled with a tendency of a weakened board to warp more readily makes it pretty much a temporary solution at best. Eventually a board can warp permanently (I've seen some bad ones). They got their calculations wrong- a borderline heat issue would escalate under heavy workload to an excessive one! They probably just didn't want believe it, pointing to the sheets of figures hoping it was just aberrations- "that shouldn't be happening my calcs don't lie" scratching their heads.

For those that really want to know, the Falcon models have different arrangement. A cooler CPU and an extra piped heatsink running from the GPU to a more open area in the unit. Maybe the mainboard composite material has been changed too- I don't know I suspect it has. My Falcon unit is still working fine.

Naysayers should be aware that (former) heat issues aside the X360 is a very excellent gaming platform for those who like sturdy controllers and don't want the hassle or expense of PC gaming. Coupled with the backlog of great games they own and the friends they've accumulated online it's no wonder they come back... give them a break already, they're not as stupid as you like to make out. Running your game off the hard drive after the new update may also alleviate heat stress- probably why they're allowing it.

Over-enthusiastic PS3 owners aught to consider (but they won't) that it's optical drive assembly is not that well made and a great many will need fixing/replacing (certainly after warranty expiration) within a 3 year period. But take heart that it's easily remedied- but not particularly cheap.

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It's as plain as the nose on your face M$ just hasn't got the QA (quality assurance) factor in place,it took them some what 12 months to recognise the problem the 360 had ? and a further 12 months to come up with a solution...not good enough,if it was your PC or a windows based problem it would be rectyfied with in a week,they would have their top technicians working 24/7 to fix....whats different about their xbox 360 ? granted M$ contracted some of their work out(majority of it)...I.E chips,optical drives,etc,etc but it still is their onus to make sure the product is faultless for it's life expectancy,although in a real world this is not always possible,but other companies get it right with their products whats so different about M$ ? LG,Sony,Samsung ,etc,etc and whatever appliance/electronics they make.Samsung are the biggest supplier of LCD screens and electronic parts to various companies now if your TV played up like the 360 did wouldn't you complain especially when this investment cost you more than a 360.

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maybe it is the retailers themselves bringing the class action against M$ ?? i know for a fact down under retailers are very unhappy with M$ return policy (due to our consumer laws)you have to do it M$'s way or not have a console at all,they want total control over their product even after a consumer has purchased their product,M$ has no right to refuse a customers demands if they are not happy with a product especially under a warranty period(depending on state laws)you say you fix consoles for a living ?yet you don't know the lay out of the new falcon setup ? thats calling the pot black isn't it.
It's as plain as the nose on your face M$ just hasn't got the QA (quality assurance) factor in place,it took them some what 12 months to recognise the problem the 360 had ? and a further 12 months to come up with a solution...not good enough,if it was your PC or a windows based problem it would be rectyfied with in a week,they would have their top technicians working 24/7 to fix....whats different about their xbox 360 ? granted M$ contracted some of their work out(majority of it)...I.E chips,optical drives,etc,etc but it still is their onus to make sure the product is faultless for it's life expectancy,although in a real world this is not always possible,but other companies get it right with their products whats so different about M$ ? LG,Sony,Samsung ,etc,etc and whatever appliance/electronics they make.Samsung are the biggest supplier of LCD screens and electronic parts to various companies now if your TV played up like the 360 did wouldn't you complain especially when this investment cost you more than a 360.

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It's as plain as the nose on your face M$ just hasn't got the QA (quality assurance) factor in place,it took them some what 12 months to recognise the problem the 360 had ? and a further 12 months to come up with a solution...not good enough,if it was your PC or a windows based problem it would be rectyfied with in a week,they would have their top technicians working 24/7 to fix....whats different about their xbox 360 ? granted M$ contracted some of their work out(majority of it)...I.E chips,optical drives,etc,etc but it still is their onus to make sure the product is faultless for it's life expectancy,although in a real world this is not always possible,but other companies get it right with their products whats so different about M$ ? LG,Sony,Samsung ,etc,etc and whatever appliance/electronics they make.Samsung are the biggest supplier of LCD screens and electronic parts to various companies now if your TV played up like the 360 did wouldn't you complain especially when this investment cost you more than a 360.

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Oddly M$ knew they have a cooling related problem from the word go. They were very interested in liquid cooling as a possible way to solve the problem, or at least the console R&D department were.. No doubt considering even at release they were making a loss on every unit sold the accountant scuppered that one.

I completely understand retailers being upset with the attempt to undermine consumers statutory rights with a restrictive and in many countries downright illegal returns policy, but the blame doesn't fall totally on M$ in that case either. The retailers have a responsibility to uphold local trading laws, not the manufacturers.. If they were unhappy then why in hell did they stock the device in the first place?... they have the leverage to force a manufacturer to shape up and follow local laws.. or they don't stock the item unless they do..

It's no good them whining all this time later.. They took the profits from the sales and then passed the buck using the M$ returns policy as an excuse in many cases to take your money and run.

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maybe it is the retailers themselves bringing the class action against M$ ?? i know for a fact down under retailers are very unhappy with M$ return policy (due to our consumer laws)you have to do it M$'s way or not have a console at all,they want total control over their product even after a consumer has purchased their product,M$ has no right to refuse a customers demands if they are not happy with a product especially under a warranty period(depending on state laws)you say you fix consoles for a living ?yet you don't know the lay out of the new falcon setup ? thats calling the pot black isn't it.
It's as plain as the nose on your face M$ just hasn't got the QA (quality assurance) factor in place,it took them some what 12 months to recognise the problem the 360 had ? and a further 12 months to come up with a solution...not good enough,if it was your PC or a windows based problem it would be rectyfied with in a week,they would have their top technicians working 24/7 to fix....whats different about their xbox 360 ? granted M$ contracted some of their work out(majority of it)...I.E chips,optical drives,etc,etc but it still is their onus to make sure the product is faultless for it's life expectancy,although in a real world this is not always possible,but other companies get it right with their products whats so different about M$ ? LG,Sony,Samsung ,etc,etc and whatever appliance/electronics they make.Samsung are the biggest supplier of LCD screens and electronic parts to various companies now if your TV played up like the 360 did wouldn't you complain especially when this investment cost you more than a 360.

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WTF?? "Is this the right room for an argument...??"

How much of a clearer explanation for the layout of the Falcon model do you want? Are you accusing me of lying? I notice you didn't give one. You take liberties with logic like you do with punctuation.

Maybe is the operative word because we don't know from the article who is behind it- varnull is right, it's a bit late for the retailers to complain now. Especially since they passed it on- as is the case with the PS3.

I suggested giving X360 owners a break. Where is the hypocrisy in my arguments- because I objectively defended a console platform you don't like? There is already a market in 3rd party do-it-yourself replacement optical assembly parts for the PS3. See: http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/12/672905. Up to it's twelfth page now and counting.

I complained about the crap returns attitude of M$- get some reading glasses mate. Only an idiot would buy an expensive product like the one's you mentioned and not buy/negotiate an extended warranty for it.

"...make sure the product is faultless for it's life" if you'd added "...of it's warranty" that remark would not sound so oxymoronic.

I don't know any self-respecting Aussie that refers to their own country as "down under". Not even that crap gutter-rag newspaper the "Herald Sun" you've named yourself after.

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maybe it is the retailers themselves bringing the class action against M$ ?? i know for a fact down under retailers are very unhappy with M$ return policy (due to our consumer laws)you have to do it M$'s way or not have a console at all,they want total control over their product even after a consumer has purchased their product,M$ has no right to refuse a customers demands if they are not happy with a product especially under a warranty period(depending on state laws)you say you fix consoles for a living ?yet you don't know the lay out of the new falcon setup ? thats calling the pot black isn't it.
It's as plain as the nose on your face M$ just hasn't got the QA (quality assurance) factor in place,it took them some what 12 months to recognise the problem the 360 had ? and a further 12 months to come up with a solution...not good enough,if it was your PC or a windows based problem it would be rectyfied with in a week,they would have their top technicians working 24/7 to fix....whats different about their xbox 360 ? granted M$ contracted some of their work out(majority of it)...I.E chips,optical drives,etc,etc but it still is their onus to make sure the product is faultless for it's life expectancy,although in a real world this is not always possible,but other companies get it right with their products whats so different about M$ ? LG,Sony,Samsung ,etc,etc and whatever appliance/electronics they make.Samsung are the biggest supplier of LCD screens and electronic parts to various companies now if your TV played up like the 360 did wouldn't you complain especially when this investment cost you more than a 360.

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WTF?? "Is this the right room for an argument...??"

How much of a clearer explanation for the layout of the Falcon model do you want? Are you accusing me of lying? I notice you didn't give one. You take liberties with logic like you do with punctuation.

Maybe is the operative word because we don't know from the article who is behind it- varnull is right, it's a bit late for the retailers to complain now. Especially since they passed it on- as is the case with the PS3.

I suggested giving X360 owners a break. Where is the hypocrisy in my arguments- because I objectively defended a console platform you don't like? There is already a market in 3rd party do-it-yourself replacement optical assembly parts for the PS3. See: http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/12/672905. Up to it's twelfth page now and counting.

I complained about the crap returns attitude of M$- get some reading glasses mate. Only an idiot would buy an expensive product like the one's you mentioned and not buy/negotiate an extended warranty for it.

"...make sure the product is faultless for it's life" if you'd added "...of it's warranty" that remark would not sound so oxymoronic.

I don't know any self-respecting Aussie that refers to their own country as "down under". Not even that crap gutter-rag newspaper the "Herald Sun" you've named yourself after.

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WTF... you are as bad as me, muttering...why should you get an extended warranty..it's only a money grabbing scam ...you know it i know it,if a product is going to fail it will fail with in 12 months as in the case with the 360(by the way are you calling me a sony fan boy ?- because if you are you are way off the mark ) most electronic /appliance companies now offer a 3 year warranty on all products, my microwave has 3 years as does my hi def tv,as well as my chef oven,hell just about every item in my house thats new comes with a 2-3 year warranty with the exception of my consoles. you stated "Maybe the mainboard composite material has been changed too- I don't know I suspect it has. My Falcon unit is still working fine. "
"For those that really want to know, the Falcon models have different arrangement. A cooler CPU and an extra piped heatsink running from the GPU to a more open area in the unit. ".... well this is common knowledge any rate.you need some glasses to mate as you have let everything just fly straight over your forehead *whoosh* and secondly are you accusing me or calling ME a liar about the 360....how the hell would you know....just because i'm not so perfect as you are claiming to be,my grammar whoopy dodah mate wake up and get a life people are all different,it's your type that are really the oxymorons of this world nit picking everything us lower classed citizens have to say,so what if you are into fixing consoles,the way you speak you claim to know evertything about the 360 and from what i have read from your post(s) you are only 3/4's right.
also if your an aussie your one of few that doesn't have a sense of humor about the nicknames given to countries...we are the arse end of the world and it's a fact, all the politically correct minded people sooked when paul keating called us that...
ohh and one more thing whats so expensive about the other equipment i mentioned they may be only $600-$700 dearer in some instances.

PS and by the way do some research, i don't know if it was you that said it but it is a woman in california that is suing M$
and that is just one of a few lawsuits pending.
heres how her case unfolded.
http://www.computerworld.com/action/arti...ss_news

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maybe it is the retailers themselves bringing the class action against M$ ?? i know for a fact down under retailers are very unhappy with M$ return policy (due to our consumer laws)you have to do it M$'s way or not have a console at all,they want total control over their product even after a consumer has purchased their product,M$ has no right to refuse a customers demands if they are not happy with a product especially under a warranty period(depending on state laws)you say you fix consoles for a living ?yet you don't know the lay out of the new falcon setup ? thats calling the pot black isn't it.
It's as plain as the nose on your face M$ just hasn't got the QA (quality assurance) factor in place,it took them some what 12 months to recognise the problem the 360 had ? and a further 12 months to come up with a solution...not good enough,if it was your PC or a windows based problem it would be rectyfied with in a week,they would have their top technicians working 24/7 to fix....whats different about their xbox 360 ? granted M$ contracted some of their work out(majority of it)...I.E chips,optical drives,etc,etc but it still is their onus to make sure the product is faultless for it's life expectancy,although in a real world this is not always possible,but other companies get it right with their products whats so different about M$ ? LG,Sony,Samsung ,etc,etc and whatever appliance/electronics they make.Samsung are the biggest supplier of LCD screens and electronic parts to various companies now if your TV played up like the 360 did wouldn't you complain especially when this investment cost you more than a 360.

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WTF?? "Is this the right room for an argument...??"

How much of a clearer explanation for the layout of the Falcon model do you want? Are you accusing me of lying? I notice you didn't give one. You take liberties with logic like you do with punctuation.

Maybe is the operative word because we don't know from the article who is behind it- varnull is right, it's a bit late for the retailers to complain now. Especially since they passed it on- as is the case with the PS3.

I suggested giving X360 owners a break. Where is the hypocrisy in my arguments- because I objectively defended a console platform you don't like? There is already a market in 3rd party do-it-yourself replacement optical assembly parts for the PS3. See: http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/12/672905. Up to it's twelfth page now and counting.

I complained about the crap returns attitude of M$- get some reading glasses mate. Only an idiot would buy an expensive product like the one's you mentioned and not buy/negotiate an extended warranty for it.

"...make sure the product is faultless for it's life" if you'd added "...of it's warranty" that remark would not sound so oxymoronic.

I don't know any self-respecting Aussie that refers to their own country as "down under". Not even that crap gutter-rag newspaper the "Herald Sun" you've named yourself after.

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WTF... you are as bad as me, muttering...why should you get an extended warranty..it's only a money grabbing scam ...you know it i know it,if a product is going to fail it will fail with in 12 months as in the case with the 360(by the way are you calling me a sony fan boy ?- because if you are you are way off the mark ) most electronic /appliance companies now offer a 3 year warranty on all products, my microwave has 3 years as does my hi def tv,as well as my chef oven,hell just about every item in my house thats new comes with a 2-3 year warranty with the exception of my consoles. you stated "Maybe the mainboard composite material has been changed too- I don't know I suspect it has. My Falcon unit is still working fine. "
"For those that really want to know, the Falcon models have different arrangement. A cooler CPU and an extra piped heatsink running from the GPU to a more open area in the unit. ".... well this is common knowledge any rate.you need some glasses to mate as you have let everything just fly straight over your forehead *whoosh* and secondly are you accusing me or calling ME a liar about the 360....how the hell would you know....just because i'm not so perfect as you are claiming to be,my grammar whoopy dodah mate wake up and get a life people are all different,it's your type that are really the oxymorons of this world nit picking everything us lower classed citizens have to say,so what if you are into fixing consoles,the way you speak you claim to know evertything about the 360 and from what i have read from your post(s) you are only 3/4's right.
also if your an aussie your one of few that doesn't have a sense of humor about the nicknames given to countries...we are the arse end of the world and it's a fact, all the politically correct minded people sooked when paul keating called us that...
ohh and one more thing whats so expensive about the other equipment i mentioned they may be only $600-$700 dearer in some instances.

PS and by the way do some research, i don't know if it was you that said it but it is a woman in california that is suing M$
and that is just one of a few lawsuits pending.
heres how her case unfolded.
http://www.computerworld.com/action/arti...ss_news

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Oh, get off your high-horse heraldsun. Your post has more political rhetoric than Churchill on a bender.

If your gonna go scapegoating at least try to back up your statements, have some balls not just act like a martyr. Yeah yeah, that's right I'm perfect- LOL.

I mentioned the Falcon layout because someone asked what the difference was.

Do you even know what oxymoron means??? WHOOSH

If you want people people to take you seriously. Try some grammar ect. so you statements don't just flow into one another in an incoherent mess. It pathetic to use class as an excuse behaving like some reverse snob.

To wit; most manufacturers don't offer a 2-3 years warranty. Many do but it not the norm. My Panasonic HDTV sure didn't. "...you know it i know it,if a product is going to fail it will fail with in 12 months". Not so, I bought a Teac TV a while back which did come with a 3yr and it sure needed it. Good telly, nice picture with RGB scart in- when it worked.

You can't take a statement were I say "I don't know" and remark "...the way you speak you claim to know evertything about the 360" without appearing foolish and just wanting to pick a fight for the sake of it. Are you drunk? It's you that's behaving like the pompous ass.

And if you had glasses... I haven't criticised you personally just your OTT aggressive behaviour. Stop accusing me I stuff I didn't say.

At least you gave a link for for the origins of the suit, and it turns out NOT to be the retailers you postulated earlier.

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Originally posted by varnull:

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I like those people who say "everybody" who bought a first release 360 had problems with it...

What a load of total crap.. The failure rate against the total sales figures seems to be a little high at around the 1% mark... without numbers.. accurate numbers from M$ that is an educated guess from the number of first release batch and later ones I see through my workshop Unacceptable for consumer electronics where the accepted fail under waranty period is suggested in manufacturers literature at 0.3%

M$ handled the situation badly to begin with.. but this lawsuit is a real no go.. they will string it out and laugh all the way to the bank. This is the kind of stupidity which keeps lawyers in business.. Every faulty console is an item in it's own right.. and a customer complaint x 1.. The judge will probably throw it out as normal consumer laws cover all these problems.

If people want to bring a class action against M$ then why not pick something worthwhile.. Like antitrust and compulsory bundling of software and operating systems through kickback manipulation and collusion with retailers?

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