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Why is the 360 still hackable?
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9. April 2009 @ 05:13 |
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I was wondering something today. It seems to me that Sony got their security right with the unhackable(thus far) PS3, so i wondered why Microsoft(or even Nintendo for that matter) hadn't gotten their technically, electronically minded people on figuring out what Sony did right and implement it in the 360?
I assume it has something to do with the hardware being different(the PS3 using the Blu-ray) but would like a better explanation.
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Senior Member
13 product reviews
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9. April 2009 @ 05:21 |
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The way I see it, is the PS3 is a Powerhouse and a piece of work. I don't know much about security in systems, but obviously it didn't work out so well for the 360 or Wii. Though I'm not surprised that the Wii was hacked. I really didn't think that Nintendo would come out with some huge security detail.
And another reason that the PS3 isn't hacked (I think), is because one, it uses Blu-Ray, so backups would be a pain in the ass, and two... Actually that's it really!
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AfterDawn Addict
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9. April 2009 @ 05:38 |
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I think after what happened on the PSP (they must be on their 30th firmware version and still hackable) Sony couldn't risk the same happening to the PS3. First of all, the disgrace and second I think publishers would have lost trust in Sony.
But the BluRay device could be another good reason the PS3 isn't hacked so far.
By the way, the Xbox 360 isn't hacked either, just the DVD drives in the Xbox 360 are.
Xbox 360: Slim untouched with a faked 320 GB harddrive for XBL, phat with LT 3.0, played Halo early, so going on live would be an instand ban, also with a faked 320 GB harddrive
PS3: Untouched 160 GB Slim, 60 GB Fat with latest Rogero and 160 GB internal harddrive.
PSVita: hardly ever play it
GameCube: Black with a Viper chip installed. With gameboy player. Trying to get a Wavebird controller.
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AfterDawn Addict
2 product reviews
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9. April 2009 @ 10:07 |
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Being able to install a different OS on the PS3 already doesn't give hackers much incentive. But like the other posters said issue with Blu-ray is the cost of the burners and media for back-up games. Yes in the end you would make your money back by copying games but not at first. I believe a firmware hack in the works but not for sure what is exactly going with it.
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ebxtreme
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9. April 2009 @ 10:24 |
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It's for certain that the PS3 remains "unhackable" because it's not financially beneficial.
The price of Blu-ray media alone is still way too high for consumers and BD-Rs also require special drives for burning (which is another chunk of cash).
Since Blu-ray is a fairly new technology, we won't be seeing the prices for BD-Rs going down anytime soon.
Also, just like the 360 can only use dual layer +Rs, maybe we'd also have to wait for BD+Rs to be made (if ever).
I personally think, if there ever is a PS3 hack in the future ... everyone will be too busy playing their PS4 to care.
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gameover9
Suspended permanently
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9. April 2009 @ 11:07 |
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Originally posted by ebxtreme:
It's for certain that the PS3 remains "unhackable" because it's not financially beneficial.
The price of Blu-ray media alone is still way too high for consumers and BD-Rs also require special drives for burning (which is another chunk of cash).
Since Blu-ray is a fairly new technology, we won't be seeing the prices for BD-Rs going down anytime soon.
Also, just like the 360 can only use dual layer +Rs, maybe we'd also have to wait for BD+Rs to be made (if ever).
I personally think, if there ever is a PS3 hack in the future ... everyone will be too busy playing their PS4 to care.
Plus, who wants to download 25 gig games. Unless there is a way to compress the games down to a DVD. That would be cool.
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ppedro
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9. April 2009 @ 11:32 |
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Originally posted by gameover9:
Originally posted by ebxtreme:
It's for certain that the PS3 remains "unhackable" because it's not financially beneficial.
The price of Blu-ray media alone is still way too high for consumers and BD-Rs also require special drives for burning (which is another chunk of cash).
Since Blu-ray is a fairly new technology, we won't be seeing the prices for BD-Rs going down anytime soon.
Also, just like the 360 can only use dual layer +Rs, maybe we'd also have to wait for BD+Rs to be made (if ever).
I personally think, if there ever is a PS3 hack in the future ... everyone will be too busy playing their PS4 to care.
Plus, who wants to download 25 gig games. Unless there is a way to compress the games down to a DVD. That would be cool.
I highly doubt PS3 games take up all space on a blu ray disc. Maybe one day, they will be able to scrub it like Wii games and shrink the iso to a decent downloadable state. Like you said, 25 gigs to download would kill anyone's ratios on sites..
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AfterDawn Addict
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9. April 2009 @ 11:49 |
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Originally posted by egomaniac:
I was wondering something today. It seems to me that Sony got their security right with the unhackable(thus far) PS3, so i wondered why Microsoft(or even Nintendo for that matter) hadn't gotten their technically, electronically minded people on figuring out what Sony did right and implement it in the 360?
I assume it has something to do with the hardware being different(the PS3 using the Blu-ray) but would like a better explanation.
As far as I know, the 360 still isn't hackable. The earlier models were and doing so was made easier with the use of the Infectus. But MS changed board designs around June/July '07 to counter that.
As for playing backups via dvd drive firmware mod... that's not "hacking the console".
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bigsjohn
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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10. April 2009 @ 00:07 |
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If they could mod the PS3 so that games could be run from the hard drive there would be no need for a blue ray burner or media. If you could transfer games from your computer's hard drive to the PS3's. Obviously it's easier said, than done.
As far as using up bandwidth on 25gig downloads, most games come out for both PS3 and 360. So if you had a modded 360 and used that for most games, and just downloaded the PS3 exclusives, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. Besides, downloading games is illegal anyway ;)
It would be nice if they can somehow manage something like that because my PS3's disc drive is dead and I don't feel like paying the $150 to have them fix it.
I won't be holding my breath but it'll be interesting to see how/if they ever mod/hack the PS3.
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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10. April 2009 @ 08:32 |
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those 25 gig files can eaisly be compressed. they already compress blue-ray movies down to a normal already compressed dvd-5 which is approx 4.5 gigs.
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Donaldo
Senior Member
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10. April 2009 @ 09:02 |
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sony also has the PSP ... for which the PSP-3000 is unhackable... even with various groups having spent months trying to hack it...
sony is pretty good at this stuff... they learn and adapt
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AfterDawn Addict
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10. April 2009 @ 10:14 |
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Originally posted by Donaldo:
sony also has the PSP ... for which the PSP-3000 is unhackable... even with various groups having spent months trying to hack it...
sony is pretty good at this stuff... they learn and adapt
Has taken them long enough to do so.
Xbox 360: Slim untouched with a faked 320 GB harddrive for XBL, phat with LT 3.0, played Halo early, so going on live would be an instand ban, also with a faked 320 GB harddrive
PS3: Untouched 160 GB Slim, 60 GB Fat with latest Rogero and 160 GB internal harddrive.
PSVita: hardly ever play it
GameCube: Black with a Viper chip installed. With gameboy player. Trying to get a Wavebird controller.
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AfterDawn Addict
3 product reviews
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10. April 2009 @ 10:21 |
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Originally posted by ppedro:
Originally posted by gameover9:
Originally posted by ebxtreme:
It's for certain that the PS3 remains "unhackable" because it's not financially beneficial.
The price of Blu-ray media alone is still way too high for consumers and BD-Rs also require special drives for burning (which is another chunk of cash).
Since Blu-ray is a fairly new technology, we won't be seeing the prices for BD-Rs going down anytime soon.
Also, just like the 360 can only use dual layer +Rs, maybe we'd also have to wait for BD+Rs to be made (if ever).
I personally think, if there ever is a PS3 hack in the future ... everyone will be too busy playing their PS4 to care.
Plus, who wants to download 25 gig games. Unless there is a way to compress the games down to a DVD. That would be cool.
I highly doubt PS3 games take up all space on a blu ray disc. Maybe one day, they will be able to scrub it like Wii games and shrink the iso to a decent downloadable state. Like you said, 25 gigs to download would kill anyone's ratios on sites..
Not to bad on 20MB Broadband and on newsgroups
To get instant assistance with Flashing / JTAG / Homebrew from experts for free! click me (Im not one of the said experts BTW)
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inagasake
Member
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10. April 2009 @ 11:52 |
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Compressing Blu-Ray video for dual layered Blu-Ray games like MGS4 would be an absolute MUST. Leeching only a 25 GB Blu-Ray, let alone a dual layered, would take up almost half of my bandwidth for the month. Forget about seeding! IRC and Rapidshare/megaupload/megashares for me. lol. Way too big to seed.
And I agree that as of right now, it would be much more worth it to find out a way to boot PS3 games off a hard drive instead of BD-R.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 10. April 2009 @ 11:52
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KajNrig
Senior Member
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10. April 2009 @ 16:41 |
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The PS3's also got some sort of freakishly convoluted encryption system for everything, and not even hacked firmware would work, because it's got a protection against that as well. Some sort of checksum or something.
That said, what's this about the new consoles not being hackable? You mean "no modchip" hackable? Or... well, actually just "no modchip" hackable.
If it's just the motherboard, then isn't it feasible to simply replace the motherboard of the new consoles with the motherboard of the old ones? It'd certainly save a lot of trouble.
...then again, I don't touch the 360.
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Member
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11. April 2009 @ 14:41 |
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Ok i meant hackable as far as playing backups which as of now isn't possible. Was just wondering if it was the PS3's blu-ray hardware alone as the culprit or is it Sony's encryption methods that have been the difference this time around?
Wasn't questioning whether or not blu-ray discs or burners were a concern, because i'm sure that could be the case. However i don't think that would stop ppl from hacking the PS3 altogether. I was at BB yesterday and saw a BD-R for $9.95(non-Sony brand obviously, i think it was Memorex but still). Burners aren't as expensive either as u can get a Pioneer or LG burner for around $250. Personally i'm sure we'd all prefer games running straight of the hard drive but don't tell me there wouldn't be plenty of ppl willing and able to download uncompressed PS3 games even. Not that that even matters to much becuz you'd be owning the games u copied anyway so its just a rip and burn process so we are back to the price of the burners and blank media....which wasn't my question per se.
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inagasake
Member
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14. April 2009 @ 01:04 |
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Sure, a BD-R is $10 now. But what if you burn it wrong? Then you got a $10 coaster! That is insane.
Anyways, I agree with you. If the system could be modded to play backups, $10 BD-Rs and 25-50 GB downloads wouldn't stop sceners trading their material within the scene or the pirates with high bandwidth caps/unlimited bandwidth. The problem is that they haven't figured out a way to mod the system itself. Sony's anti-piracy efforts are working. They beat piracy this gen and the case of the PS3 makes me question the popular notion that pirates/hackers will always be one step ahead. Though I think M$ anti-piracy methods have been effective as well. 360 has the best software attach rates and while the great game library has something to do with it, I think the fear of Live Bans and RRoD (flashing voids warranty) also explains it. Obviously that's not stopping everyone but I think it's clear that people haven't pirated the 360 to hell like they have the PS2 and PC.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 14. April 2009 @ 01:08
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Member
2 product reviews
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14. April 2009 @ 01:17 |
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The PS3 has HomeBrew such as PS1/PS2 ISO loaders using a SwapMagic disc, and you must not forget that you can install Linux with ease on the PS3, it even has a option in settings to install other OS! Then you must think, from Linux you could run Emulators and such. There is a small amount of Homebrew for the PS3, but as mentioned before, the main thing from stopping the giant grill from being hacked is Blu-Ray.
WiiNewz Senior Member
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scorpNZ
AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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14. April 2009 @ 02:10 |
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I guess this blows the it's the "blu ray drive" theory out the window
http://digg.com/d1fs0G
When we create a new generation of video games, we also create a new generation of technology, security, and sadly ... hackers. Finding holes in new hardware and exploiting them to do anything from copying free games to changing the technology itself, these hackers have many ways of doing things and leave many industries looking for solutions to stop it. With the PSP being hacked just days after each update, we are left to wonder why the PS3 hasn't been hacked yet and what has Sony done to stop the madness. Well, we created a feature to help explain how things are done and exactly why the PS3 is safe from these attacks.
If you have ever hacked, or watched someone hack a PSP, then you'd know how things work. You mess with the file system and trick it into reformatting itself to fit your needs. All the DRM and privilege rights are overwritten and nothing is stopping you from doing things you're not supposed to. This can be done on almost any technological piece of hardware. You can insert a UMD and copy it to a memory stick, you can take the iPhone and change the version to bypass AT&T security, or you take your PC game and upload it to a torrent site for someone else to play. Since these hacks seem to be common practice nowadays, Sony has obviously studied these exploits and went to great lengths to prevent it from happening on the PS3.
The minute your PS3 boots up, it runs through 4 stages of security at all times. All 4 stages have secrets that will need to be decoded in order to reach the next stage. So think of hacking the PS3 to be similar to a treasure hunt. You discover the clues and figure out a way to piece them all together to find the treasure. Except in this hunt for the booty, if you mess up one tiny thing, the whole mission collapses and your PS3 could possibly explode into vast reaches of outer space.
For starters, the PS3 is not easily fooled like its sibling PSP. Sony has encrypted each hard drive to only work with a specific PS3, which eliminates the possibility of switching them out like memory sticks. The hard drive is then read by the PS3 where it makes sure the drive is registered to the specific console. After verifying the hard drive, the PS3 continues to search for needed files to boot up the OS. This is merely the logo that appears or random files hidden in the system that will trigger the ?OK? to boot up. The hard drive is built in layers with the ?bootflag.dat? being the first file read on each start up, which then leads into the DRM file and finally ... the game files. Several files found in between each of these makes things even more complicated to bypass. We must also note that messing with any of these files will cause the PS3 to read them as missing and not boot up correctly.
If you finally get past the hard drive, you must then face the problems hidden within the actual system itself. We all know the PS3 is a beast with a hearty 7 cells running under the hood as we brag about this on a daily basis. The problem for hackers is how only 6 of these cells are actually accessible, with the 7th cell access being denied to everyone. Not even game developers have access to this 7th cell. Now why is this cell even there if we can't use it? In a simple sentence, the 7th cell runs the PS3 completely on its own. The cell boots the system up, cracks the codes encrypted in all security branches, and finally keeps the OS running while you play a game or do whatever you normally do. Remember how I talked about the PS3 verifying the HDD in relation to the system? This is where that comes into place. The 7th cell is what verifies everything that needs to be unlocked or encrypted. The 7th cell basically double checks that everything in the PS3 actually belongs to the PS3, so users cannot trade hard drives or share illegal games without the cell noticing and denying access. With the exception of communicating with other cells, this cell cannot be written to or acknowledged by an outside source, making it completely secure from attacks.
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