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Microsoft to face class action lawsuit over Xbox Live bans
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The following comments relate to this news article:
article published on 20 November, 2009
AbingtonIP, a law firm that specializes in consumer class action lawsuits, is actively recruiting Xbox 360 gamers that have had their consoles banned from Xbox Live, in anticipation of a lawsuit.
About 1 million gamers were banned in Microsoft's recent wave of banning those using modified consoles and pirated games.
"Although modification of Xbox consoles is arguably against the terms ... [ read the full article ]
Please read the original article before posting your comments.
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emugamer
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20. November 2009 @ 14:17 |
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Good. Let's find out exactly how they are detecting this. If there is a policy in place, then a console should be banned immediately upon finding out that it breaks policy. Not when it is convenient to maximize profits. This is going to be extremely interesting.
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Member
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20. November 2009 @ 14:26 |
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You got caught, M$ can do what ever they want juset leave it.
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jony218
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20. November 2009 @ 14:41 |
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Every one has to play by the rules, the pirates and also microsoft. Microsoft knew they where pirates but decided profit was more important and let them reup the "live" membership then banned them. Even honest pirates don't stoop that low.
That's one reason I never sign up for long term memberships, because companies can cancel you anytime and not refund your money. "burn me once shame on me, burn me twice shame on you."
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elfman12
Junior Member
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20. November 2009 @ 14:41 |
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Quote:
Although modification of Xbox consoles is arguably against the terms of use for Xbox/Xbox Live
That says it all there. Microsoft's alleged profit motives don't even enter into it. If you mod you box, then you can't get on LIVE.
Best solution, have 2 boxes, one modded for games and offline play, and a non-mod for LIVE play. Doesn't take Mensa level thought here, folks.
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SDF_GR
Member
1 product review
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20. November 2009 @ 15:22 |
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Quote:
AbingtonIP says Microsoft obtained information from the user's consoles without permission.
This is were the real game is!
I really want to see what will be the verdict especially for this cause this will apply for all consoles.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 20. November 2009 @ 15:25
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MReprogle
Member
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20. November 2009 @ 15:58 |
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11. Privacy.
In order to operate and provide the Service, we collect certain information about you. We use and protect that information as described in the Microsoft Online Privacy Notice (http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=81184 ,and its successors). In particular, we may access or disclose information about you, including the content of your communications, in order to: (a) comply with the law or respond to lawful requests or legal process; (b) protect the rights or property of Microsoft or our customers, including the enforcement of our agreements or policies governing your use of the Service; or (c) act on a good faith belief that such access or disclosure is necessary to protect the personal safety of Microsoft employees, customers, or the public.
We may use technology or other means to protect the Service, protect our customers, or stop you from breaching this contract. These means may include, for example, filtering to stop spam or increase security. These means may hinder or break your use of the Service.
To provide you the Service, we may collect certain information about Service performance, your machine, and your Service use. We may automatically upload this information from your machine. Such data may include console hardware and operating performance data, and network performance and service quality data. Any software or hardware errors, which may occur while you are connected to Xbox Live or offline, may be uploaded and reported. All such data may be stored with the console?s unique identifier, and may be associated with other personally identifiable information. You may read about this data collection in more detail in the Microsoft Online Privacy Notice athttp://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=81184 .
Additionally, to evaluate and enable the features and functions of the Service, such as leaderboards, live-hosted gameplay,achievements, tournaments, and gamer profile sharing, you grant Microsoft and each of our affiliates, resellers, distributors, service providers, partners, and/or suppliers (each, a "Microsoft party"), permission to use, track, store, copy, distribute, broadcast, transmit, publicly display and perform, and reproduce your game scores, your game play sessions, your presence on the Service, the time that you spend on or within particular portions of the Service, portions of the Service that are displayed on your monitor or screen and the duration of that display, rankings, statistics, gamer profiles, avatars, content that you may submit, and other usage information with or without attribution to you ,your gamertag, or avatar and without notice or compensation to you of any kind. To avoid any confusion, we have the right to make information pertaining to your use of, and gameplay on, Xbox LIVE available through Games for Windows LIVE, and vice versa .
By buying the Xbox, we agreed to this. This attorney is wasting his time. Maybe he should just get over the fact that his xbox got banned. haha
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CX1329
Newbie
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20. November 2009 @ 16:08 |
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The problem lies in how Microsoft is detecting modded consoles. They may very well have a case if it is found that MS is obtaining info about consoles illegally, through the means of invasion of privacy. Even if the violation of copyright laws is indeed a crime, MS cannot act upon it by illegal means, otherwise their acts will be considered unlawful.
If AbingtonIP can prove that MS did not act in accordance with the law during the process of banning consoles, Microsoft may well have to at least restore full HDD functionality for all those who were banned.
This is a case of "two wrongs do not make a right", thus, one cannot claim that Microsoft had the right to ban pirates in whichever way they deemed fit just because said pirates were acting unlawfully. It's not how it works, Microsoft -can't- do whatever they please just because pirates were caught by them. Everything must be done within the boundaries of the law, regardless of what the other party did or is doing. After all, just because somebody steals something from me, that does not enable me to break into their house at night just to take my object back, and this is no different.
Now, I very much doubt anything will come out of this, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. But nonetheless, I'll be interested in seeing the verdict, after all, I was banned and this is of great interest to me.
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scum101
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20. November 2009 @ 16:09 |
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M$ are watertight.. the only way to get banned is to break the TOS .. the courts will just want to know that M$ do have a watertight way to detect.. they aren't going to leak an industrial secret into the public domain.. HOW M$ detect is not important in this case.. all they have to show is that they can and do.. and the TOS then comes into force.
Judge will ask: "why are consoles getting banned"?
M$ will reply: "because they have been modified in a way which breaks the TOS"
judge will ask: "and you can detect modified consoles"?
M$ reply: "yes"
Judge asks : "do users who do not have modified consoles have any way to get the ban removed"?
M$ reply: "yes, but they have to prove to our satisfaction that they do not have a modified console.. probably by sending it to us for complete physical inspection if there is any doubt in the matter"
judge: "sounds about right, what does the modification do which breaks the TOS"?
M$: "It circumvents copy protection built into the game disks in clear violation of the DMCA"
case dismissed.
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CX1329
Newbie
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20. November 2009 @ 16:13 |
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@MReprogle:
These may be considered unfair clauses should the court decide so, and therefore null and void. Terms of Use contracts are moot, really. They can't be negotiated, and only clauses recognized and endorsed by law are valid. I can't, for example, have a clause that says "IF YOU MOD THIS WE SHALL KILL YOU, YOUR FAMILY AND YOUR DOG" in a contract.
Still, I'd like to see some precedents to this case. Any law discussions are useless without appropriate case law references.
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emugamer
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20. November 2009 @ 16:18 |
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Originally posted by scum101:
M$ are watertight.. the only way to get banned is to break the TOS .. the courts will just want to know that M$ do have a watertight way to detect.. they aren't going to leak an industrial secret into the public domain.. HOW M$ detect is not important in this case.. all they have to show is that they can and do.. and the TOS then comes into force.
Judge will ask: "why are consoles getting banned"?
M$ will reply: "because they have been modified in a way which breaks the TOS"
judge will ask: "and you can detect modified consoles"?
M$ reply: "yes"
Judge asks : "do users who do not have modified consoles have any way to get the ban removed"?
M$ reply: "yes, but they have to prove to our satisfaction that they do not have a modified console.. probably by sending it to us for complete physical inspection if there is any doubt in the matter"
judge: "sounds about right, what does the modification do which breaks the TOS"?
M$: "It circumvents copy protection built into the game disks in clear violation of the DMCA"
case dismissed.
I agree that it is air tight for MS. But I do see how their actions can make them seem like accessories to a crime. If it can be proved that they knew about the modded consoles for a period of time, then it would appear that they exploited illegal activity to maximize profits.
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MReprogle
Member
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20. November 2009 @ 16:37 |
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Originally posted by CX1329:
@MReprogle:
These may be considered unfair clauses should the court decide so, and therefore null and void. Terms of Use contracts are moot, really. They can't be negotiated, and only clauses recognized and endorsed by law are valid. I can't, for example, have a clause that says "IF YOU MOD THIS WE SHALL KILL YOU, YOUR FAMILY AND YOUR DOG" in a contract.
Still, I'd like to see some precedents to this case. Any law discussions are useless without appropriate case law references.
You are correct. Laws override a company's terms of use. There isn't much in the legal side of this, besides that pirating is illegal, which is what they are going to point to. The only thing that we can hope is that this forces M$ to specifically state their means of gathering data from consoles. I can't imagine them being able to say that they aren't breaking privacy laws without giving a clear rundown of what they do get into our consoles. The attorney won't win the case, but the data that might possibly be recovered is more important to most of us anyways.
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Senior Member
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20. November 2009 @ 17:37 |
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Quote:
Microsoft 'conveniently' timed the Xbox console ban to coincide with the release of the new Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 game and less than two months after the release of the very popular Halo 3: ODST game,"
I find this quote hilarious, the wave "conveniently" happened just after one of this years massive (but overrated) titles was leaked onto the internet something like a week before release day. A game a huge amount of people were playing on and offline before release day should be an instant red flag for MS so why not take advantage of that?
MS are completely within their rights to do this making this lawsuit a complete joke that will result in nothing but alot of wasted money in legal fees for both partys.
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Senior Member
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20. November 2009 @ 17:58 |
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Lawsuits...the american way to whine and bitch. They are going to use the coincidence of the ban happening around the release of Modern Warfare 2 and after Halo ODST being released as a basis of this case. What a joke. If you modded the console and violated licensing agreements and the TOS then you got banned. Deal with it. If they were doing this solely on profits then why didn't they wait until after christmas which will probably show strong sales in both those games. They did it because they are trying to stop the pirates end of story. Now quit your crying babies.
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oappi
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20. November 2009 @ 18:41 |
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i really hate ms, but this is just stupid like bobiroc said.
Nearly as stupid as eu demanding that ms should remove mediaplayer and ie. Yeah thanks it is way better that i have to go firefox/opera site and download firefox/opera and then mp oh wait i dont have web browser. gee now i have to go to my old computer and download browser installation package to my usb stick and then install it from there to my new OS... thanks.
Fortunately they came to their senses with ie.
if you wanted to do more with your xbox than you are allowed then you should buy a computer or two xbox consoles. You broke the rules and knew the risks deal with it if you don´t like the rules buy pc or other console like ps3.
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dwinsor
Newbie
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20. November 2009 @ 18:57 |
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If M$ has the rights to the software on the system then anyone how has a console befor mid 08 then they have the right the turn you functions off (HDD). if you have a console after mid 08 then the function was allready on the system disabeling this is then illegal. this is changing what you have purchest you own the hole thing including software.
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Member
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20. November 2009 @ 19:43 |
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Well it's worth a try but they will most likely be crushed by M$.
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hendrix04
Junior Member
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20. November 2009 @ 21:03 |
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this is crazy. They didn't ban people and cause a greater number of xbox live subscriptions. they banned people and made them buy the games + a new xbox...
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Amak
Member
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20. November 2009 @ 21:42 |
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Originally posted by CX1329:
The problem lies in how Microsoft is detecting modded consoles. They may very well have a case if it is found that MS is obtaining info about consoles illegally, through the means of invasion of privacy. Even if the violation of copyright laws is indeed a crime, MS cannot act upon it by illegal means, otherwise their acts will be considered unlawful.
Ugh, I hate repeating myself. M$ is detecting how the DVD's modified firmware responds. The modded one responds to challenges (copy protection) TOO quickly because it simply says everything is ok, while the stock does an actual check.
The 1 thing I can see them getting reamed for is their crippling of hard drives.
Happy, mods? No "insults" :D
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 20. November 2009 @ 21:43
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llongtheD
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20. November 2009 @ 22:00 |
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This is just another lawyer, or team of them, trying to legally "blackmail" a corporation. This case, if it is indeed filed will go nowhere. As much as I despise M$, they are justified in banning these modded consoles. If anyone can remember M$ fought the U.S. government in court and won a few years ago, avoiding the company being split up. These people just don't have the resources to fight a monster the size of Microsoft, which in itself is unfortunate.
To those people who piss and moan about being banned for modding their console to use pirated software, take some responsibility for your actions. Its almost laughable they would be complaining after doing this. Sometimes its best to let sleeping dogs lie. Fortunately for them, M$ probably won't pull an RIAA, and start suing people for pirating software.
If your fish seems sick, put it back in the water.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 20. November 2009 @ 22:02
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Jason89
Newbie
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21. November 2009 @ 11:36 |
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If you modded your xbox to play copies of the games that you bought LEGALLY then M$ can do nothing, the fact that they are disabling features because someone opened their OWN PRIVATE PROPERTY to play something that may have broke or got burnt in a massive house fire or something like that is just wrong
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Senior Member
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21. November 2009 @ 12:58 |
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Originally posted by Jason89:
If you modded your xbox to play copies of the games that you bought LEGALLY then M$ can do nothing, the fact that they are disabling features because someone opened their OWN PRIVATE PROPERTY to play something that may have broke or got burnt in a massive house fire or something like that is just wrong
You obviously do not understand licensing agreements. You may have purchased the XBox but you agree to the licensing agreement or TOS on the software of that Xbox and you do not own that. Same goes for any of the games. If you modify that software you are in violation of that regardless if you paid money for the game or the console.
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lxhotboy
Senior Member
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21. November 2009 @ 14:56 |
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Honestly, if you where online with a Modded console the possible consequences should have already been understood. So really, what are they complaining about?
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Wiiman50
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22. November 2009 @ 00:50 |
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The reasoning of this lawsuit its the same as the reasoning for being a redneck, or living in a filthy trailer park full of inbreds.
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mgrover93
Account closed as per user's own request
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22. November 2009 @ 08:40 |
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i thought microsoft detected the idiots that played wave 4 games early, even with disconnecting internet, they didnt listen and got there asses banned, you cant detect a console mod because your modding a drive, i remember something about drive speeds but i doubt thats it
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ss2trunks
Member
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22. November 2009 @ 18:34 |
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Microsoft banned everyone regardless of whether you played ur game online or off, modchips included. Even if you didnt play a game early,and stealth patched all ur games eventually you were flagged and banned.
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