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Apple rep says iPhone OS is open, Flash is closed and proprietary
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The following comments relate to this news article:
article published on 23 April, 2010
The war of words between Adobe and Apple over the latter company's apparent campaign to dethrone Flash as a standard web development technology continues to escalate.
Besides declining to work with Adobe to bring Flash to the iPhone OS, Apple has recently changed the Terms of Service for the iPhone SDK to disallow development with unauthorized tools like Adobe's new Creative Studio 5.
... [ read the full article ]
Please read the original article before posting your comments.
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AfterDawn Addict
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23. April 2010 @ 05:58 |
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Antitrust means that you are the sole seller (or the largest by far) of a product. Apple clearly isn't a monopoly in the cell phone game, or even in the smart phone game, and no one is going to say they have a monopoly on iPhone sales, because that is a patent all to itself. However, apple does have a monopoly on iPhone app sales. Just imagine if you could only buy software from microsoft, even if it was made by someone else...that would be an antitrust suit strong enough to get a conviction, even against microsoft's army of lawyers.
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NeoandGeo
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23. April 2010 @ 06:39 |
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We are moving towards not having a plugin for most content, and that is a great trend. But for the time being, when there are millions of sites that have some flash content, you support it, not fight it.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 23. April 2010 @ 06:40
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scifenefics
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23. April 2010 @ 06:47 |
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A plugin to view 90% of internet? I never installed a plugin, oh thats right its built into windows, wonder why the mac has not done the same ???
Plus typing uses code to enable it, guess cause its pre-installed its not called a plugin
Apple is stupid - Adobe rulez.
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Paula_X
Suspended permanently
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23. April 2010 @ 07:07 |
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adobe are crap.. face it.. for too long their locked down proprietary rubbish video player has been used where far better alternatives have been available.. and FYI.. it isn't "included" in windoze.. It can't be because it is proprietary and property of adobe... it's still an automatic download and install from adobe servers the first time that hopeless M$ browser hits a flash site.
I strangely support apple in this matter.. they are right about not wanting to force people to have a proprietary lump of software .. strange concept but true for you lot in your proprietary "have to steal it if don't want to pay" world.
Why don't crapple stick some of their millions into supporting gnash.. the open source alternative flash player.. IF it's so bloody essential to the internet lets have some working alternative, or just ditch proprietary flash altogether and stream video in open formats properly.
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karemeli
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23. April 2010 @ 07:36 |
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I'm a noob...why isn't VLC player used instead? From what I understand, it is open source and it plays many different video formats?
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NeoandGeo
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23. April 2010 @ 08:32 |
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Originally posted by Paula_X:
I strangely support apple in this matter.. they are right about not wanting to force people to have a proprietary lump of software ...
That's why it should be an option if you want it, you shouldn't be forced by Apple to not get it at all.
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scifenefics
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23. April 2010 @ 08:46 |
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Ok I agree, though I do still love adobe, so maybe not on that part lol.
Open source is a cool idea, though alot of the people who contribute to these things, probably have a job somewhere else in the area that helps them live.
If everything was open source I wonder if there would be any open source as no one would learn programming/ whatever becuase there would be no career there, except for hobbyists of course, though I cant see them taking us this far in software tech that we have now, in the past whatever yrs. just a thought.
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Staff Member
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23. April 2010 @ 09:56 |
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Originally posted by chrisk1250:
You misinterpreted the context of the Apple spokesperson's quote. It is in regards to internet content. The internet should be open and shouldn't require a plugin to "view 90% of video" on it. Nowhere does she say the OS is open. It just supports open internet standards that don't require plugins.
And Apple claims that it will hinder progress because for instance:
what if people come to rely completely on CS5 to make apps. Apple updates its OS quite frequently. If an app developer is reliant on CS5 or some other software, they would have to wait until that software became up-to-date before deploying any new features.
I didn't misunderstand anything. Apple is trying to change the subject to content instead of the platform because it looks better for them. Although they didn't actually say the iPhone platform was any more open, that was the clear implication based on what the statement was responding to.
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AfterDawn Addict
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23. April 2010 @ 10:03 |
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Ummmmm...... flash is a video standard because everyone uses it, its small and mostly efficient unlike quicktime.......oh did people forget apple owns quicktime and would like it to be the web video standard?
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Staff Member
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23. April 2010 @ 10:07 |
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Originally posted by NeoandGeo:
We are moving towards not having a plugin for most content, and that is a great trend. But for the time being, when there are millions of sites that have some flash content, you support it, not fight it.
Exactly right. With Apple and Google as the dominating forces in developing HTML5 it's only a matter of time before a lot of what Flash is used for now is handled by open standards. I happen to agree with Apple that Flash's days are numbered and one day there will be no need to support it. But that day isn't today.
Apple seems to be working from the false assumption that you can direct and control innovation. The fact is you can't completely control your own innovation, let alone someone else's. Apple makes some good products but they could make them even better if they would stop worrying about third party frameworks and jailbreakers.
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AfterDawn Addict
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23. April 2010 @ 10:14 |
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Originally posted by vurbal:
Originally posted by NeoandGeo:
We are moving towards not having a plugin for most content, and that is a great trend. But for the time being, when there are millions of sites that have some flash content, you support it, not fight it.
Exactly right. With Apple and Google as the dominating forces in developing HTML5 it's only a matter of time before a lot of what Flash is used for now is handled by open standards. I happen to agree with Apple that Flash's days are numbered and one day there will be no need to support it. But that day isn't today.
Apple seems to be working from the false assumption that you can direct and control innovation. The fact is you can't completely control your own innovation, let alone someone else's. Apple makes some good products but they could make them even better if they would stop worrying about third party frameworks and jailbreakers.
Most graysuit mindsets involve controlling chaotic creativity...and its not that hard to do at times look at today's music.....
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Staff Member
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23. April 2010 @ 10:17 |
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Originally posted by scifenefics:
A plugin to view 90% of internet? I never installed a plugin, oh thats right its built into windows, wonder why the mac has not done the same ???
Plus typing uses code to enable it, guess cause its pre-installed its not called a plugin
Apple is stupid - Adobe rulez.
As technology like Flash matures and becomes ubiquitous it's natural that the same functionality be added to standards like HTML5. The real issue here isn't Flash per se. It's the fact that innovation occurs across platforms, frameworks and SDKs, each of which is, to paraphrase Steve Jobs, an intermediate layer between the platform and the developer. There will always be room for something new that, much like Flash did, provides standard functionality across platforms to do something new or not yet established as an open standard.
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Staff Member
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23. April 2010 @ 10:32 |
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Originally posted by Paula_X:
adobe are crap.. face it.. for too long their locked down proprietary rubbish video player has been used where far better alternatives have been available.. and FYI.. it isn't "included" in windoze.. It can't be because it is proprietary and property of adobe... it's still an automatic download and install from adobe servers the first time that hopeless M$ browser hits a flash site.
I strangely support apple in this matter.. they are right about not wanting to force people to have a proprietary lump of software .. strange concept but true for you lot in your proprietary "have to steal it if don't want to pay" world.
Why don't crapple stick some of their millions into supporting gnash.. the open source alternative flash player.. IF it's so bloody essential to the internet lets have some working alternative, or just ditch proprietary flash altogether and stream video in open formats properly.
Flash was on its way out whether Apple drew a line in the sand or not. It's not essential to the internet so much as a smooth transition from Flash to HTML5. That requires cooperation between content creators and companies like Apple and Google. Given Apple and Google's role in developing HTML5 that was inevitable.
At best Apple's decision to obstruct Flash on the iPhone could speed the transition away from it ever so slightly, but at the cost of millions of end users being completely confused about why their iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch can't display some web pages when it's supposed to be like a desktop browsing experience.
At worst it turns Adobe into a martyr and actually prolongs the inevitable transition to HTML5. All those iPhone OS users still get caught in the middle of a pointless standards battle (pointless because HTML5's victory is assured) and perhaps some significant percentage of iPhone owners and developers get frustrated enough to abandon the platform in favor of developing cross platform apps for Android, Symbian, MS Phone 7 or whatever other platforms are around at the time.
I completely agree with Apple about Flash's days, at least in its current incarnation, being numbered. Where I disagree is when they start suggesting that controlling apps to the degree they do now and increasing that control as they just did leads to more progress. It leads to incompatible devices, confused consumers, more expensive development to cross platform boundaries and it's generally bad for the smartphone market.
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Staff Member
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23. April 2010 @ 10:34 |
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Originally posted by ZippyDSM:
Ummmmm...... flash is a video standard because everyone uses it, its small and mostly efficient unlike quicktime.......oh did people forget apple owns quicktime and would like it to be the web video standard?
Not exactly. What they want is for MPEG-4 AVC technology, which they've invested heavily on in Quicktime, be the standard.
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AfterDawn Addict
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23. April 2010 @ 11:19 |
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Originally posted by vurbal:
Originally posted by ZippyDSM:
Ummmmm...... flash is a video standard because everyone uses it, its small and mostly efficient unlike quicktime.......oh did people forget apple owns quicktime and would like it to be the web video standard?
Not exactly. What they want is for MPEG-4 AVC technology, which they've invested heavily on in Quicktime, be the standard.
Meh close enough :P
If apple wants it as the standard then they will have to do what sony did with blu ray pay everyone off to use it. :P
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AfterDawn Addict
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23. April 2010 @ 11:23 |
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Originally posted by karemeli:
I'm a noob...why isn't VLC player used instead? From what I understand, it is open source and it plays many different video formats?
VLC is not a web page language, is just a player.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 23. April 2010 @ 11:31
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h8xor
Newbie
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23. April 2010 @ 23:37 |
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Originally posted by Paula_X:
adobe are crap.. face it.. for too long their locked down proprietary rubbish video player has been used where far better alternatives have been available.. and FYI.. it isn't "included" in windoze.. It can't be because it is proprietary and property of adobe... it's still an automatic download and install from adobe servers the first time that hopeless M$ browser hits a flash site.
I strangely support apple in this matter.. they are right about not wanting to force people to have a proprietary lump of software .. strange concept but true for you lot in your proprietary "have to steal it if don't want to pay" world.
Why don't crapple stick some of their millions into supporting gnash.. the open source alternative flash player.. IF it's so bloody essential to the internet lets have some working alternative, or just ditch proprietary flash altogether and stream video in open formats properly.
I'm sorry but this has been irritating me for several posts now. Flash is a platform, not just a video player. Many of the things that it does can be replicated in other programming languages, but it isn't right for a developer to be told "No you can't use that because it isn't how we do it." Flash is like Java, some love it and others hate it, but no OS manufacturer disables Java from being installed. This is akin to Microsoft saying you can only write programs for windows in Visual Basic. C, Ruby, Java, Python, ect be damned!
On another note, I would also to point out that Flash, and more importantly the language you use to program in Flash does follow an open standard called EMCA script. This is the same definition used for javascript in our beloved web browsers that comes pre-installed. More what is so bad about a plugin? It is merely to extend the capability of something. If Firefox and Internet explorer (just to list a few) happen to have flash player built in, would it suddenly be more appetizing? I have trouble scoffing at something that is free.
Finnally, flash is an open platform. There are a lot of programs that you can use to compile whatever you program to flash, or you can download the flex SDK and code without using any of Adobe's proprietary software and create stuff for free. But the real issue here is that apple should not close off development pathways. If I can create a great program using flash or flex for the iphone, why not let me run it? People have mentioned that adobe might not update their software fast enough, or I may have compatibility issues, but any developer is well aware of that. Should I have to spend time having to rebuild an application from scratch and have to learn an entirely different language just to meet that their standard of "quality"? You'd think reducing an expert developer back to the level of beginner by putting him in a different development environment might, JUST MIGHT actually produce lower quality programs. We all have different thoughts, languages, and development styles, but why stop a perfectly working application just because the developer uses a different language than you?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 23. April 2010 @ 23:46
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AfterDawn Addict
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24. April 2010 @ 01:19 |
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Originally posted by cyprusrom:
Originally posted by karemeli:
I'm a noob...why isn't VLC player used instead? From what I understand, it is open source and it plays many different video formats?
VLC is not a web page language, is just a player.
VLC can play flash videos, but it won't handle flash apps...and that would be the best part of having flash on the iPhone...the ability to get whatever apps you want without Apple getting in the way and charging you for the bother. Also, the iPhone VLC is a 3rd party port, so some things (such as flash support) might be missing. Even if you can play flash files, it is a huge pain compaired to using a browser plug-in.
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AfterDawn Addict
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24. April 2010 @ 01:44 |
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Originally posted by KillerBug:
Originally posted by cyprusrom:
Originally posted by karemeli:
I'm a noob...why isn't VLC player used instead? From what I understand, it is open source and it plays many different video formats?
VLC is not a web page language, is just a player.
VLC can play flash videos, but it won't handle flash apps...and that would be the best part of having flash on the iPhone...the ability to get whatever apps you want without Apple getting in the way and charging you for the bother. Also, the iPhone VLC is a 3rd party port, so some things (such as flash support) might be missing. Even if you can play flash files, it is a huge pain compaired to using a browser plug-in.
I think too many people fail to realise "Flash" is not just a player, not just "video". You cannot use "VLC" to build a webpage, add animation and interactivity.
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AfterDawn Addict
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24. April 2010 @ 06:21 |
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Still, if I had an iPhone, I think I would at least try using VLC for flash videos...there is still no VLC for android, or I would already have tried it on my phone.
Then again, if I had an iPhone, I would be too busy trying to get android running.
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Senior Member
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24. April 2010 @ 17:20 |
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Originally posted by cyprusrom:
Originally posted by karemeli:
I'm a noob...why isn't VLC player used instead? From what I understand, it is open source and it plays many different video formats?
VLC is not a web page language, is just a player.
It can act as a browser plug-in in Firefox, can't it?
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Senior Member
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24. April 2010 @ 22:50 |
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As much as I hate to say it and as much as I disagree with it, Apple is perfectly within their right to not add support for a Flash Plugin...
Where I draw the line is when Apple does not allow third party development platforms, specifically CS5, to build Apple apps.
This is quite clearly and unambiguously an attempt at Apple to prevent developers from developing for other platforms.
They are basically saying that if you plan to develop for Apple you will ONLY develop for Apple. This is the ultimate goal here. Apple currently has the lions share of the phone market. That dominance is quickly dwindling. Apple is trying its best to prevent any other phone from gaining dominance or worse, from the phone becoming just another device, with the iPhone being just one among dozens of capable platforms.
By restricting developers in this way they make it much harder for those developers to build apps for other phones.
I hope the Feds bust them big time.
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TheCraven
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28. July 2010 @ 13:33 |
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Originally posted by chrisk1250:
You misinterpreted the context of the Apple spokesperson's quote. It is in regards to internet content. The internet should be open and shouldn't require a plugin to "view 90% of video" on it. Nowhere does she say the OS is open. It just supports open internet standards that don't require plugins.
And Apple claims that it will hinder progress because for instance:
what if people come to rely completely on CS5 to make apps. Apple updates its OS quite frequently. If an app developer is reliant on CS5 or some other software, they would have to wait until that software became up-to-date before deploying any new features.
First of all, "rely on flash?" That's what javascript and the rest are there to prevent. And you can't really blame Adobe for being the #1 platform for online media. That was caused by the developers, who CHOSE to use it.
Plus, Apple does not update every day, so waiting on a Flash update in order for Apple to push iOS modifications is a non-issue.
Lastly, if nearly every mobile OS is beginning to fully support Flash, why shouldn't Apple? That is being closed, not letting a widely accepted standard be part of your devices.
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