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BDA tells early adopters: We needed to create momentum
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The following comments relate to this news article:
article published on 19 January, 2008
The BDA has explained why early adopters of the format will not be rewarded for supporting the HD format in its earliest stages because the Blu-ray camp needed to "create momentum" in its battle against rival HD DVD.
Frank Simonis, the European chairman of the Blu-ray Disc Association, was the one who spoke out about why new standards (such as Profile 1.1) took so long to hit the market.
... [ read the full article ]
Please read the original article before posting your comments.
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Senior Member
4 product reviews
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20. January 2008 @ 18:54 |
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Oh About them changing the drive speeds of bd in the ps3 thats the same thing as there doing now. there going to leave the consumers in the dust if they go from 2x to 4x. also a bd disc going at 4x. hope they have some clear titanium cover i dont know about. Smaller pits mean littler scrathes to smug up your gaming Experiance.
to the topic at hand. Yea they Knew what was going to happen. heck at least they still have a working player. any body remember the phase out When betamax lost the tape battle it was in and out the door.
also to the side, this guy sure does sound confident when telling people there player arnt going to work right in the near future. just remember guys Hd-dvd is not out yet. dont make the same mistake i made with betamax. that left me crying for years.
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hughjars
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20. January 2008 @ 19:26 |
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You can tell the Blu-ray fanclub have started to rake out the bottom of the barrel on this one when they try and compare the early DVD player's inability to play DTS audio with 'profile 1.0' & 'profile 1.1' players not being able to play 'profile 2.0' movie discs.
There's no way DTS audio or +/- R DVD equate to the 200,000 - 250,000 early Blu-ray stand-alone owners getting the shaft on this 'profile' mess.
(and in a market where the overwhelming majority of HD TVs are 720p/1080i screens why on earth shouldn't the HD DVD format meet that actual need and give people the choice?
Those with 1080p screens will see 1080p from a 1080i signal anyways
It's just typical Blu-ray, forcing an expensive unusable 1080p spec on everyone when most cannot make use of it.)
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Senior Member
4 product reviews
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20. January 2008 @ 20:05 |
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hughjars you and NexGen76 are always going at it why dont you two ever give it up.
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hughjars
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20. January 2008 @ 20:28 |
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DXR88 forget who's saying what, concentrate on what is said.
Do you really think 200,000 - 250,000 'profile 1.0' & 'profile 1.1' player owners getting turned over like this, seriously, is in the same league as the first DVD players not decoding DTS!?
Or whether those first DVD players (which can still play retail DVD movies today) could play +/- R DVD is in the same league as being unable to play the coming 'profile 2.0' movie discs?
Come on.
It's typical Blu-ray BS, a condescending insult to those who have been ripped off to the tune of anything from $300 - $1500.
I can do nothing about the sort of posters who come here to talk up and excuse such outrageous practices - and frankly nor would I if I could.
They are their own worst enemies.
Everyone can see when they try to minimise & soft-soap that kind of nonsense.
I am quite happy to show their ludicrous nonsense up for the lame disinformation & distraction it almost invariably is.
We can all hope thet they have put their money where their mouth is & that they end up being caught in this debacle having wasted a not inconsiderable sum on the Blu-ray 'beta' prototype stages themselves.
.....and of course it's always amusing to point out the obvious hypocrisy.
They are almost always game console fanboys (and not first & foremost movie fans at all) who rush to slam Microsoft's XBox 360 as being rushed to market and having a high 30% rate of failure etc etc.
Now when the BDA themslves admit to rushing Blu-ray to market and face leaving all 'profile 1.0' & 'profile 1.1' player owners out in the cold when the 'profile 2.0' discs come
(effectively a 100% failure rate)
they churn out the lies
('it's only about 'extras' - or attempt to divert attention from what is going on - 'DVD & DTS').
It would be funny if it wasn;t real people getting scr3wed over by the bunch of CE corps who have devised this new Blu-ray gravy-train.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 20. January 2008 @ 20:52
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Senior Member
4 product reviews
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20. January 2008 @ 21:37 |
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Its called Corperate Games hughjars. this ones a mere test to lets see how far we can go lying to are fanbase. sony pulled one. that will lose them the most loyalist of all the important ones the a/v fanatics. you see without the a/v fanatics you cant sell if you cant sell you lose.
these gimme pigs treated there a/v fanatics genni pigs like dirt. these people gave your product life and you turn around and shoot'em in the back. its sad cause, i would understand if it was the hd-dvd format winning and sony dissapers for a few days but thats not the case here there winning and its only because of the people that reached deep into there wallets to pull out this 1500 bucks cash
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Staff Member
2 product reviews
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21. January 2008 @ 01:10 |
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Originally posted by NexGen76:
Just look at DVD. For the first 3-4 even 5 years you had players that couldn't decode DTS, play progressively, play DVD +/-R, etc. Now go out there and find a player that doesn't do all that.
This isn't even close to the same thing. The DVD Forum has always rejected any changes that would cause newer DVDs not to play on older players. DTS was and is an optional feature, and isn't required in newer players either.
To be sure there were occasional problems where a release would have problems on older models of DVD player, but that was a question of improper implementations of the DVD VM, not a change in specs.
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xtago
Senior Member
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21. January 2008 @ 03:33 |
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Originally posted by Dat1boi:
Ok, so I don't have a ps3 or a BD player, but I just can't help but wonder (and if anyone knows please feel free to let me know) what does this mean for ps3's? I'm sure newer one's will probably just be updated with the update, but what if you have an older system, will it not take full advantage as well. If so it sux to have bought a ps3 back then, no games and you BD player is now out of date.
For the PS3.
Out of the box the PS3 is a profile 1.1 player.
Firmware 1.90 added support for TrueHD audio and some other audio support, the PS3 has around 40 different audio aupport codecs in it, out of the box TrueHD has to be added.
The PS3 does
stero headphones to 48kHz speakers.
5.1 Surround sound about 15 to 20 codecs.
6.1/7.1 about 10 to 15 codecs.
THX makes up the last few.
TrueHD adds on top of the above.
2.0 makes the PS3 a Profile 2.0 Blu-ray player, this will do the BDJava PiP etc features for Profile 2.0 Blu-Ray titles.
just about all current titles will be profile 1.0 to 1.1 profile Blu-Ray movies so playing them in a Profile 2.0 player won't add anything anyway.
2.1 makes the PS3 a 100% certified DivX player as well.
That pretty much sums it up.
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xtago
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21. January 2008 @ 03:43 |
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Originally posted by hughjars:
DXR88 forget who's saying what, concentrate on what is said.
Do you really think 200,000 - 250,000 'profile 1.0' & 'profile 1.1' player owners getting turned over like this, seriously, is in the same league as the first DVD players not decoding DTS!?
Or whether those first DVD players (which can still play retail DVD movies today) could play +/- R DVD is in the same league as being unable to play the coming 'profile 2.0' movie discs?
You also forget that the first few gens of DVD players wouldn't let you play any burnable DVDs, didn't matter what kind of format.
Then you had to have DVD-R to allow for compatablitly on all DVD players as DVD-R is the movie format and DVD+R is the computer format.
So yes a heap of people would have gotten screwed over with buying the first few gens of DVD players.
not to menition the problems of heat killing DVD players didn't matter what brand it was.
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Junior Member
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21. January 2008 @ 05:06 |
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Quote:
Originally posted by hughjars:
...Do you really think 200,000 - 250,000 'profile 1.0' & 'profile 1.1' player owners getting turned over like this, seriously, is in the same league as the first DVD players not decoding DTS!?
Or whether those first DVD players (which can still play retail DVD movies today) could play +/- R DVD is in the same league as being unable to play the coming 'profile 2.0' movie discs?
...You also forget that the first few gens of DVD players wouldn't let you play any burnable DVDs, didn't matter what kind of format...
So yes a heap of people would have gotten screwed over with buying the first few gens of DVD players...
That's not the point. The point is those early players could still play retail discs, and can still play new release retail discs. The big question is will the older bd players even play the newer discs at all. I wouldn't put it beyond the bda, not just judging from this statement. Early adopters aren't really representative of the average consumer, meaning sony won't lose a bunch of money even if that group refuses to buy anymore blu-ray stuff.
Originally posted by hughjars:
They...rush to slam Microsoft's XBox 360 as being rushed to market and having a high 30% rate of failure etc etc.
The only problem ms might have because of choosing to offer hd-dvd as an add-on is if games actually start needing the space bd provides, since (from what i've heard) the add-on drive isn't open to developers. if sony wins they'll just offer a bd add-on for 360. on an off-topic note: the thing that makes it obvious they rushed to market with 360, to me, is the fact that the "online console leader" has no built-in wireless and still charges users $50/year to play games online.
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DieMPAA
Newbie
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21. January 2008 @ 12:58 |
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A/V early adopters pay for being on the bleeding edge. As HD-DVD owners are paying now for gambling on that format, early Blu-ray adopters pay as well. Rinse and repeat.
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DieMPAA
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21. January 2008 @ 12:58 |
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A/V early adopters pay for being on the bleeding edge. As HD-DVD owners are paying now for gambling on that format, early Blu-ray adopters pay as well. Rinse and repeat.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 21. January 2008 @ 12:58
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Moderator
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21. January 2008 @ 18:05 |
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Same as all these BR/HD DVD threads - off topic comments are being directed at individuals and that needs to stop now. From here on in anyone making such comments will get the hammer.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 21. January 2008 @ 18:06
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error5
Senior Member
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21. January 2008 @ 20:26 |
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Originally posted by juankerr:
At least something is being done to ensure that BD-J issues are kept to a minimun:
http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/20/blu...y-disc-quality/
Quote:
BluFocus is already working with a number of studios in order to ensure that BD-J / BD Live functionality is properly implemented and that discs arrive to end-users sans issues. The company (accurately) points out that mastering Blu-ray titles is a much more involved process than mastering a vanilla DVD, and considering just how much interactivity is being mixed in, there's a lot more room for error than in days past. Notably, we're not told exactly which studios BluFocus is currently working with, but here's to hoping we find fewer reasons to plead for replacement discs in the future.
@juankerr:
DVDBack23 picked up the engadgetHD news article:
http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/12640.cfm
Do you think BluFocus will be using something similar to Microsoft's 360 HD DVD/HDi Emulator?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 21. January 2008 @ 20:28
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Senior Member
4 product reviews
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21. January 2008 @ 21:46 |
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See we went in made Nephilim Ban Hammer Crazed Again. Sorry Nephy.
@error5 it sounds like a group of inspecters for the blu-ray format,
like the offical DVD Site.
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error5
Senior Member
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21. January 2008 @ 22:00 |
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Originally posted by DXR88:
@error5 it sounds like a group of inspecters for the blu-ray format,
like the offical DVD Site.
It's an extra level of quality control that's focused on disc compatibility across different player brands and BD-J Profiles.
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Senior Member
4 product reviews
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21. January 2008 @ 22:05 |
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OH MY Bad i thought you meant what was blu-focus. SOrry for the misunder standing
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error5
Senior Member
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21. January 2008 @ 22:10 |
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Read the links for DVDBack's article and the engadgetHD article. They explain everything.
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juankerr
Member
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22. January 2008 @ 02:35 |
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Originally posted by error5:
It's an extra level of quality control that's focused on disc compatibility across different player brands and BD-J Profiles.
Exactly right.
What this means is:
Let's say I'm an early adopter and I have a 1st gen profile 1.0 player (like the Panasonic BDP-10A). BluFocus will be working closely with the different studios to make sure that all future releases that have Profile 1.1 and BD Live 2.0 features will still play properly in my 1.0 player.
I know that I won't be able to access the 1.1 and 2.0 extras. However, they will ensure that the movie itself will play without a hitch and that the non-1.1, and non-2.0 extras will also play as expected.
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hughjars
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22. January 2008 @ 07:11 |
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Originally posted by juankerr:
they will ensure that the movie itself will play without a hitch and that the non-1.1, and non-2.0 extras will also play as expected.
- I admire your optimism at least.
Sadly that is not what the BDA have been telling people.
This is what they have been saying -
In addition, the BD-J interactivity layer, based on Java, has continued to evolve since the introduction of Blu-ray Profile 1.0.
This means that early players may have a buggy implementation and perhaps more importantly, they are not powerful enough to play the latest films properly.
.....but it's ok with you, right juankerr?
Afterall "you knew what you were getting into", eh?
(BTW, if you don't mind me asking, which stand-alone did you buy & if it all goes t!ts up on you how much are you out?)
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juankerr
Member
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22. January 2008 @ 07:48 |
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hughjars:
That's an old quote from the BDA and obviously predates the BluFocus announcement.
The BluFocus news item is dated January 20, 2008.
This is a new development and a new announcement from the BDA. Of course we expect you to respond this way to any good news from the BluRay side right?
The fact remains that another level of quality control has been added to the disc production process and efforts are underway to ensure compatibility across all player models and all BD-J platforms and implementations.
Like it or not, the early adopters are not being left out in the cold after all.
BTW, I have 2 BluRay players: a profile 1.1 Panasonic DMP-BD30 in my main setup ($450) and a 40GB PS3 profile 1.1 (soon to be profile 2.0) in the den. When Panasonic releases the Profile 2.0 DMP-BD50 I will definitely get one of those and relegate the BD30 to the bedroom.
While you're at it can you contact your friends at Toshiba. Tell them the bitstream problem with the XA2 HD DVD player is still unresolved. The sound from any secondary stream PiP is absent when I use bitstream to my Onkyo receiver. I've sent them several e-mails but there's no reply yet.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 23. January 2008 @ 07:42
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hughjars
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22. January 2008 @ 08:45 |
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Originally posted by juankerr:
That's an old quote from the BDA and obviously predates the BluFocus announcement.
- It's not even a month old.
The "they knew what they were getting into" interview was dated Jan 8th 2008.
Originally posted by juankerr:
The BluFocus news item is dated January 20, 2008.
- Well what of it?
It's only an announcement that they are going to try and get higher quality, it's not like they have come out and specifically guaranteed anybody anything.
Originally posted by juankerr:
This is a new development and a new announcement from the BDA. Of course we expect you to respond this way to any good news from the BluRay side right?
- No.
What you can expect is that I'll post up the whole story and not just go along with their usual misdirection & PR BS.
Originally posted by juankerr:
The fact remains that another level of quality control has been added to the disc production process and efforts are underway to ensure compatibility across all player models and all BD-J platforms and implementations.
- ......and the fact remains that (from several sources now) we know that 'profile 1.0' & 'profile 1.1' players are likely to have serious problems with 'profile 2.0' discs.
Just because they are upping their quality controls does not mean they have found a way to get past the serious problems between the 'profiles'.
Keeping 'profile 2.0' quality at an acceptable level (across whatever range of profile 2.0 players that they eventually end up with) does not in itself mean ensuring 'profile 1.0' & 'profile 1.1' players will ever be able to play 'profile 2.0' discs properly.
Originally posted by juankerr:
Like it or not, the early adopters are not being left out in the cold after all.
- That's purely your own invention.
You have nothing concrete on which to base that.
I can point to a series of BDA comments dated Jan 8th 2008 which specifically address this issue and you are trying to use a press release from the 20 Jan 2008 which does not specifically mention this issue at all.
There are plenty of quotes that would indicate the exact opposite is in fact the truth, like it or not.
We'll see - if they ever get around to making a proper range of 'profile 2.0' stuff - if it's to anything like the same kind of repeatedly delayed timetable as 'profile 1.1' was it won't be any time soon tho.
Originally posted by juankerr:
I've sent them several e-mails but there's no reply yet.
- Jibes aside I think you'll find Toshiba have been pretty good at resolving various issues to date.
Patience.
(and don't be pretending Blu-ray does not have them either, eh?)
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error5
Senior Member
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22. January 2008 @ 09:01 |
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Quote:
I can point to a series of BDA comments dated Jan 8th 2008 which specifically address this issue and you are trying to use a press release from the 20 Jan 2008 which does not specifically mention this issue at all.
The January 20 BluFocus announcement is DIRECTLY CONNECTED to BD-J profile issues. Read DVDBack23's news item and the engadgetHD news item. BluFocus will directlty address 1.0 and 1.1 profile compatibility issues.
http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/12640.cfm
Quote:
Many have hoped for such a group as titles on Blu-ray and its rival HD DVD are very sophisticated systems of interactivity and many make it to retail shelves with flaws that need later patches or even recalls. The new group will test all titles to ensure they operate on all players before release.
The company has an expertise in the Blu-ray authoring language BD-Java and is "able to run the discs through a variety of tests in order to ensure compatibility with the set standards."
http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/20/blu...y-disc-quality/
Quote:
BluFocus is already working with a number of studios in order to ensure that BD-J / BD Live functionality is properly implemented and that discs arrive to end-users sans issues. The company (accurately) points out that mastering Blu-ray titles is a much more involved process than mastering a vanilla DVD, and considering just how much interactivity is being mixed in, there's a lot more room for error than in days past.
The entire purpose of BluFocus is to ensure BD-J and BD-Live compatibility and functionality across all players and platforms.
edit: spelling
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. January 2008 @ 09:12
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hughjars
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22. January 2008 @ 09:14 |
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Originally posted by error5:
The entire purpose of BluFocus is to ensure BD-J and BD-Live compatibility and functionality across all players and platforms.
- These articles & press releases are hardly specific and do not address the points the BDA themselves raised only 2 wks before.
Given what they themselves said only 2 weeks before-hand what is more likely?
Across all platforms, period.
or
Across all 'profile 2.0' platforms (when/if they arrive).
Like I said the BDA have not specifically retracted their own comments about 'profile 1.0' & profile 1.1' Blu-ray players having severe problems with 'profile 2.0' Blu-ray discs.
This new 'body' does not guarantee anything in regard to those 'issues'.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. January 2008 @ 09:19
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juankerr
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22. January 2008 @ 09:37 |
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Quote:
BluFocus is already working with a number of studios in order to ensure that BD-J / BD Live functionality is properly implemented and that discs arrive to end-users sans issues.
The article mentions both BD-J (which is profile 1.0 and 1.1) plus BD-Live (which is 2.0). So we prefer to be optimistic that proper implementation and functionality will span all players and profiles.
Quote:
Like I said the BDA have not specifically retracted their own comments about 'profile 1.0' & profile 1.1' Blu-ray players having severe problems with 'profile 2.0' Blu-ray discs.
This announcement is, as I see it, their own way of resolving the situation before it becomes widespread. They anticipate problems and this is their way of being proactive about it. They put a solution in place even before the 2.0 discs are released.
IMO they should be applauded for this effort.
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hughjars
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22. January 2008 @ 10:27 |
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Originally posted by juankerr:
we prefer to be optimistic that proper implementation and functionality will span all players and profiles.
- Good for you & good luck with that - you're one of the ones that are going to need it.
Quote:
IMO they should be applauded for this effort.
- Let's see if they can actually manage to resolve the problems before just taking the word of a press release & a vague aspiration, and starting the back-slapping eh?
IMO the BDA showed exactly how they really think of their early customers and any problems they may have with their outrageous
"they knew what they were getting into" comment.
This has been going on for months (and we finally had someone stand up and state that this was not - as the BDA & their shills tried to pretend - 'HD DVD FUD') and is a genuine problem.
Denon first talked about it in August and the BDA mentioned it 2 weeks ago in grave terms.
I hardly think a pretty vague press release like this 'proves' anything or does very much to dispel all the earlier comments.
For those interested in what Denon had to say the link is here -
http://www.listenup.com/content/partner_...adge.aug.07.php
But the key section is this part -
Quote:
But there is a possibility ? and this is maybe not so public knowledge ? that when these discs come out that fit this new profile, they may not work properly with the Profile 1.0 players.
LU: Really?
JT: It?s a possibility, and that?s why we?re working very hard to make sure that our products will be okay with any previous discs and new discs.
You'll note that the Denon Blu-ray player has been delayed, again.
I doubt it is unconnected.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. January 2008 @ 10:32
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