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Nvideas rsx pipelines vs 360 ATI pipelines 360 core vs ps3 cell
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KoOkOo67
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18. November 2006 @ 09:19 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
EH, those post's were from last year lol, don't read those:P


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This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. November 2006 @ 09:26

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revanth87
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29. March 2007 @ 22:57 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
kookoo, where are you? Whats your opinion now after reading that article? Do you still bind by your words from 2005?
cesarita
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13. April 2007 @ 11:50 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Hy everyone i m new here

Can someone prove now with the ps3 out if it better than a xbox360 with a valid Tecnic arguments!!
that´s all i ask with valid Tecnic arguments...not teorys ok??!

PS. sorry my english i m portuguese

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cesarita
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14. April 2007 @ 01:25 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Anyone Knows??waths its the best console?

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cesarita
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14. April 2007 @ 01:29 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
kookoo76 do you Know??

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xXxBG
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14. April 2007 @ 19:40 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Quote:

500 MHz G70 based GPU on 90 nm process[1]
300 milllion transistors total
Multi-way programmable parallel floating-point shader pipelines
Independent pixel/vertex shader architecture
24 parallel pixel pipelines
5 shader ALU operations per pipeline per cycle (2 vector4 and 2 scalar (dual/co-issue) and fog ALU)
27 FLOPS per pipeline per cycle
8 parallel vertex pipelines
2 shader ALU operations per pipeline per cycle (1 vector4 and 1 scalar, dual issued)
10 FLOPS per pipeline per cycle
Announced: 74.8 billion shader operations per second theoretical maximum ( ((5 ALU x 24 pixel pipelines) + (2 ALU x 8 vetrex pipelines)) x 550 MHz )
Calculated: 68 billion shader operations per second theoretical maximum ( ((5 ALU x 24 pixel pipelines) + (2 ALU x 8 vetrex pipelines)) x 500 MHz )
Announced: 1.8 TFLOPS (trillion floating point operations per second)
Calculated: 364 GFLOPS ( ((27 FLOPS x 24 pixel pipelines) + (10 FLOPS x 8 vertex pipelines)) x 500 MHz )
8 Render Output units
24 filtered and 32 unfiltered texture samples per clock
Maximum vertex count: 1 billion vertices per second (8 vertex x 500 MHz / 4)
Maximum polygon count: 333.3 million polygons per second (1 billion vertices per second / 3 vertices per tirangle)
Maximum texel fillrate: 12 gigatexel per second fillrate (24 textures x 500 MHz)
Maximum pixel fillrate: 16 gigasamples per second fillrate using 4X multisample anti aliasing (MSAA), or 32 gigasamples using Z-only operation; 4 gigapixels per second without MSAA (8 ROPs x 500 MHz)
Maximum Dot product operations: 33 billion per second
128-bit pixel precision offers rendering of scenes with high dynamic range imaging
128-bit memory bus width to 256-MiB GDDR3 VRAM
Memory clock: 1.3 GHz (650 MHz × 2)[2]
Maximum bandwidth bitrate: 20.8 GB per second
Support for a superset of DirectX 9.0c/API and Shader Model 3.0
S3TC [3]

From Wikipedia. NVIDIA RSX
xXxBG
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14. April 2007 @ 19:45 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Quote:

337 million transistors in total
500 MHz 10 MiB daughter embedded DRAM (eDRAM) framebuffer on 90 nm process
NEC designed eDRAM die includes additional logic for color, alpha blending, Z/stencil buffering, and anti-aliasing
105 million transistors [2]
8 Render Output units
500 MHz parent GPU on 90 nm TSMC process of total 232 million transistors
48-way parallel floating-point dynamically-scheduled shader pipelines[3]
Unified shader architecture (each pipeline is capable of running either pixel or vertex shaders)
2 shader ALU operations per pipeline per cycle (1 vector4 and 1 scalar, co-issued)
10 FLOPS per pipeline per cycle
48 billion shader operations per second theoretical maximum (2 ALU x 48 shader pipelines x 500 MHz)[3]
240 GFLOPS (10 FLOPS x 48 shader pipelines x 500 MHz)[4]
MEMEXPORT shader function
Support for a superset of DirectX 9.0c/API DirectX XBOX 360, and Shader Model 3.0/3.5
16 filtered and 16 unfiltered texture samples per clock
Maximum vertex count: 1.6 billion vertices per second
Maximum polygon count: 500 million triangles per second[3]
Maximum texel fillrate: 8 gigatexel per second fillrate (16 textures x 500 MHz)
Maximum pixel fillrate: 16 gigasamples per second fillrate using 4X multisample anti aliasing (MSAA), or 32 gigasamples using Z-only operation; 4 gigapixels per second without MSAA (8 ROPs x 500 MHz)[1]
Maximum Dot product operations: 24 billion per second
Cooling: Both the GPU and CPU of the console have heatsinks. The CPU's heatsink uses heatpipe technology, to efficiently conduct heat from the CPU to the fins of the heatsink. The heatsinks are actively cooled by a pair of 60 mm exhaust fans that push the air out of the case by negative case pressures.

ATI XENOS. XBOX 360
cesarita
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15. April 2007 @ 07:34 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Thanks for the information, but i want to Know the perfomance in general Wath the console in future can have better graphics

I know the GPU of the xbox360 is litter better than the rsx i want to Know in general wath its the best onde in General

Please if someone can be imparcial in the judge of the consoles??!!

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SkippyM
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23. April 2007 @ 04:46 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
yous do realise that the ps3 is naturally more powerfull then the 360, give the game companys around 1 or 2 years to actually learn how to use the ps3's power.
cesarita
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23. April 2007 @ 07:10 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by SkippyM:
yous do realise that the ps3 is naturally more powerfull then the 360, give the game companys around 1 or 2 years to actually learn how to use the ps3's power.

Everyone says that PS3 is better than a xbox360, but i need arguments that comproved that!

See You

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23. April 2007 @ 07:24 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by SkippyM:
yous do realise that the ps3 is naturally more powerfull then the 360, give the game companys around 1 or 2 years to actually learn how to use the ps3's power.
You also do realize that the PS2 was Naturally more powerful then the original xbox right? but yet what one had the better gfx?.

The PS2 had a more powerful CPU then the xbox but had a worse GPU.
Plus the PS2 was extremely hard to code for where the xbox was alot easier to code for.
Even the Dreamcast could do better textures and stuff then the ps2 could, cos the GPU in the DC was also better then the one in the ps2
But the PS2 could push more polys and use the cpu for some of the more advanced effects.

But i believe that this gen the gfx race is going to be closer then it has ever been before..
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23. April 2007 @ 09:30 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Quote:
Everyone says that PS3 is better than a xbox360, but i need arguments that comproved that!
These forums are FILLED with arguments about that!



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oofRome
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23. April 2007 @ 17:31 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Quote:

You also do realize that the PS2 was Naturally more powerful then the original xbox right? but yet what one had the better gfx?.

The PS2 had a more powerful CPU then the xbox but had a worse GPU.

I'm having a real hard time believing this.
edit** the part about the emotion engine being "naturally" more powerful than the xbox's p3.

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 23. April 2007 @ 17:37

Xbok360
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26. June 2007 @ 20:56 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by cesarita:
Thanks for the information, but i want to Know the perfomance in general Wath the console in future can have better graphics

I know the GPU of the xbox360 is litter better than the rsx i want to Know in general wath its the best onde in General

Please if someone can be imparcial in the judge of the consoles??!!
It is hard to have impartial opinion. Even those who bought both console will surely have one as a favorite.

First of all I am not a gamer. I am a hardware enthusiast. Secondly, if this thread is no longer active, please pardon me for bringing it back after about 2 month of last post. And third, in my earlier post I have supplied a link to article that technically argue about PS3 vs 360 hardware. You can Google "Gotfrag : PS3 CPU & 360 CPU" for that article.

This post is to answer your question on which is the best console in general between Xbox 360 and PS3.

IMHO, the answer is still Xbox 360.

I have seen other post here describing PS3 as being naturally more powerfull that the 360. Which is correct in the sense that PS3 is a 'supercomputer' good for 'vector' calculation stuff.

It is good at calculating lots of repetitive data and streaming it from one SPE to another in the cell processor. Where each SPE will be doing specific vector calculation. PS3 have 7 SPE inside its CELL processor.

PS3 natural power lie in this specific way of processing data. Which is good for doing movie encoding / decoding. Since we are talking about a massive set of data ( video plus audio data) being processed at one SPE for a specific operation and then streamed to the next SPE and so on.

However game is a different matter. Some part of game such as physic and terrain rendering is suitable for this kind of processing. But most part of game codes are not big/massive data, not repetitive and are branchy. For instance AI and game control. Which is better handled by a general purpose processor.

PS3 have a PPE to handle this kind of processing. PPE is the general purpose part of the cell processor. It also controls the 7 SPEs. In the sense that, PPE will have a list of vector computation task to be distributed to the SPEs.

However PPE it self is not as powerful as current generation of Intel or AMD processor. It is a stripped down RISC processor. It takes longer to execute branchy game codes compared to current generation Intel / AMD processor.

Why? To write it in a simple word. Our Intel / AMD processor work extra hard in the hardware to order computer instruction in such away that execution of this instruction will not stall waiting for input. RISC processor do not have this in hardware and depend much on the compiler to optimize the code.

Not everything can be written in simple word :) . For better explanation look in wikipedia for the following key words : RISC, CISC, Out Of Order Execution.

Anyway. Here is the catch on Xbox 360. We all must know that both console processor is developed by IBM. In fact Xbox 360 processor is actually a PPE customized by IBM for Microsoft. But instead of having one PPE, it has 3.

So what we have is 3 core PPE in Xbox 360 versus 1 core PPE plus 7 SPE in PS3.

Another interesting fact is that each PPE has 2 thread of execution while SPE has 1 thread of execution. So the total count is.

Xbox 360 = 3 core x 2 thread = 6 thread
PS3 = 1 core x 2 thread + (7 SPE x 1 thread) = 9 thread

As other poster has write here. PS3 is naturally more powerful than the 360. But keep in mind that PS3 7 SPEs thread is not so much useful in general purpose processing. For general purpose processing PS3 has only 2 thread while the 360 has 6.

In general, Xbox 360 is a better choice for game. At least for now!

And in addition to this it is not easy to use the 7 SPEs to harness that 'natural' power. Hence all the complaint we heard from developer about how the PS3 is a little bit hard to develop on.

Keep in mind that all I write above is just about the CPU. I have not touch about GPU and memory of both console. So I am being slightly of topic.

Cheers!

* For those who wonder about GPU and memory of both console. The short answer is 360 is the clear winner. The long answer is unfortunately too long!
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27. June 2007 @ 00:50 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
I understand what you are saying but I belive that from having also read the article you quote from that it comes down to the developers.

The PS3 SPE's are a new way of programing and it will take a while for the developers to get to scratch with them - but they will.

Your P.S is a bit cheeky seeing as you state that GPU of 360 is clear winner - As you well know there is a much longer argument to this - and so is not true!

However at the end of the day it should be about the games - if there are games you want to play on a console get that console, even if it means you may have to buy both!
Xbok360
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1. July 2007 @ 19:39 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Originally posted by liamrabey:
I understand what you are saying but I belive that from having also read the article you quote from that it comes down to the developers.

The PS3 SPE's are a new way of programing and it will take a while for the developers to get to scratch with them - but they will.


It is up to developer and, don't forget, the people who hire the developer. At some point these people will have to decide things like how complicated, how long, how costly and how much performance can be squeezed from a piece of hardware.

Originally posted by liamrabey:
Your P.S is a bit cheeky seeing as you state that GPU of 360 is clear winner - As you well know there is a much longer argument to this - and so is not true!


I will write about both GPU when I have the time. I hope you can do the same to justify your part of argument.

In short, or at least for now. 360 GPU and CPU and memory subsystem is designed tightly integrated. The design allow developer to easily use and unleash hardware performance.

Originally posted by liamrabey:
However at the end of the day it should be about the games - if there are games you want to play on a console get that console, even if it means you may have to buy both!

Agreed. But for those who want to play *most* of the games *now* without buying all three console. There will always be 360.

Due to Cell complexity and 360 humongous user base, lots of developer will develop on 360 first and then port to PS3.Technically this make sense. Even on 360, developer will first develop for single core and then optimized it to 360 triple core.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, one core of 360 CPU is similar to the PPE of cell processor. So the next logical step is

1- Take game code from 360
2- Port it to PS3 Cell processor PPE.
3- Optimize it for SPE vector processing.

As a result. Game will arrive first in 360 and there will be less PS3 exclusive game. Sure, some game like Final Fantasy XYZ (put some number there) will be exclusive to PS3. But note that, in this generation of game console, being exclusive will be very expensive in term of game development effort and $$$ cost.

Regardless of what have been written above. I hope that Sony can clean up their act and turn PS3 into a success. Competition is good. And that is what this console war should be, *competition*. Sadly, it is not happening that way. Guess what, MS is not cutting their price because PS3 is even more expensive. Hell, will MS delay shrinking to 65nm if PS3 launch is a big 'console killer' success?

Cheers!
brifa
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1. July 2007 @ 21:57 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
i just got one thing to say ...i got both consoles and by far i prefer the 360...pay so much money for the ps3 and just a crap(with all do respect)ps3 dosnt worth all that money
nax0101
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2. July 2007 @ 05:20 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
wel iv got both and im asyin ps3 kills xboxs ass why?

for startes its not that much more expensive then the xbox and also it has so many more functions,

you have to BUY addons for the xbox where as the ps3 is built in

ps3 far more superior machine
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2. July 2007 @ 05:25 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
PS3 "crap"...yeah okay. I don't see THOUSANDS of PS3's with RLOD's. People have their own view as to which is better "right now" which in my opinion boils down to impatience. ALL Sony systems since the PS1 took a little while to get to the point where dev's REALLY made some great games. Remember games aren't made over night and if they where I sure as hell wouldn't buy them. That is another point you can't say the PS3 is an inferior system because it has "no games" that's a cop out, it's not Sony's fault the dev's are lazy and put out really horrendous games, it's those dev's that are in it STRICTLY for the money and not to give a true experience which hurts ALL gamers but for some reason people point it out more on PS3 than the 360 and the 360 has some truly horrible games.

Back to the quality of games and game play I will use 1 great title as an example God of War...look how great that game looks & plays on an "old gen" system. This shows how the technology that Sony had fore thought to put into their next gen system (at the time) was the right choice. Either way Phil Harrison described recently what I have been saying for a while, albeit in a much better/clearer explanation than I ever have


Quote:
You only have to go back to the games that launched Playstation 1 and Playstation 2.

If you took those few dozen titles and analysed them, you would never have imagined that either of those formats would have on to sell over 100 million units each.

As long as the games they get are great, [consumers] don't care if they are third-party or first-party... What I do believe is that the investments we have made in Worldwide Studios globally - US, Europe, and Japan - will yield the best quality software and the highest quality experiences that are clearly going to be exclusive to the platform.


We have a larger platform-dedicated development resource than our competitors combined. So all of that goes towards the fact that the best games with the best technology are coming exclusively to [Sony] platforms.

The highlighted text is what I like best because it is the truth. With over 110 MILLION PS2's sold (and still selling I might add) you can't deny it. How can MS actually feel with a total of only about 35 Million (Xbox 1 & 360 combined mind you) feel they have "the market". Now yes the PS3 doesn't have the #'s now but to have a prior user base of that amount will take some time to port over to the new gen. Again something that will not happen over night (impatience is the key word here).

I feel that (basically) when TRUE next gen titles are released for the PS3 people will undoubtedly see what gaming on a TRUE next gen system will be like.

PS1 gave us CD based gaming up from cartridge based
PS2 gave us DVD with the inclusion of CD as well as backwards compatibility
PS3 gives us all previous entries with new HD playability & gaming plus much more.

That to me shows customer loyalty by not leaving out people from the previous incarnations of their products. MS cannot say the same.

On a side note though how can you be "unbiased" when your name is Xbok360? Seems to me a bit hypocritical.

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 2. July 2007 @ 05:30

funky22
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4. July 2007 @ 13:39 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Only thing xbox 360 got better is grafick card the rest is junk 33% of xbox 360 broke down 1% ps3 broke down now u judge what is better

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Xbok360
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4. July 2007 @ 21:50 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Quote:
On a side note though how can you be "unbiased" when your name is Xbok360? Seems to me a bit hypocritical.
Where did I claim that my opinion is "unbiased"?.

I agree with your point regarding stability. In fact I always advise people not to buy 360 until it goes 65nm and hence have a new revision on the motherboard.

But from pure hardware performance point of view. Which is what my post has been about all along. 360 simply has superior design that give superior performance.

Please note I have clearly mention that I am not gamer but a hardware enthusiast. So pardon me if my point of view is different when it comes to what SONY can do in term of the best exclusive game by their in house developer.

My point of view is that everyone can do their best. And if Microsoft or third party developer do their best on the 360. The resulting game will be comparable or better to what Sony can do for their exclusive games. They can, because Xbox 360 is a well balance machine.

I have heard a lot about PS3 will be doing better after certain period of time. Well lets throw 6 month out of the equation since we already past that. I suspect that we can throw 1 year out, because we are about to get to 1 year already.

Well OK ... lets wait for 2 years. I'll reply your post after PS3 is 2 years old and let see what happen. Is that ok with you? I don't mind the wait.

See ya!
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5. July 2007 @ 07:40 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
Thank You for helping me prove my point about you being biased. With just 1 game alone I could show your whole post is nothing but inaccurate.

Resistance Fall of Man

It has exceptionally great graphics for a LAUNCH title. I could go on about it but I really don't need too as my point is already made and the proof is there. But I will add that with another title like Motorstorm also available, it just further proves you are biased via opinion not fact.

The funny thing is the real point is the devs are the ones who are responsible for the quality of the game. Not Sony's OR their hardware. So again your point has no bearing & substance.

This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 5. July 2007 @ 07:42

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17. December 2007 @ 20:48 _ Link to this message    Send private message to this user   
The is alot of misinformation when it come to specs. They can fuge the number to make one look more powerful than the other. The difference is in the design. The PS3 has the RSX, which is a traditional GPU. The X360 has the ATI Xenos, which is the first GPU to have a Unified Shader Pipeline and a 10MB eDRAM daughter chip on the same substrate.

For those who do not know what a Unified Pipeline is, it is a design that allows all programs to share the same ALU (Arithmetic Logic Unit) resources, which in the case of GPU's, pixel shader programs and vertex shader programs can run through the same ALU's. ATI designed the Xenos for the Xbox 360 so that developers can utilize all of the ALU's in the processor for what ever function they wanted instead of having specific ALU's for vertex, and the others for pixels.

The RSX is claimed to be similar to the Geforce 7800 from what I read. But sony, does not clarify this, so we can just assume it is. There is alot of evidence to prove it is an altered version of the 7800 series.The RSX is a traditional design though, and does not have a unified shader pipeline like the ATI Xenos.

The XBOX 360 benifits greatly becaue of the unified shader pipline and the 10MB eDRAM, making 100 percent anti-aliasing on all games possible without any performance sacrafice, and creating a more colorful and clear picture on the screen. If you notice all PS3 games lack in a comparable color and clarity quality to the XBOX 360.

The ATI Xenos is a better GPU compared to the RSX, because of these first of a kind innovations in GPU design. The RSX depends greatly on the PS3's CELL processor, particularly the 8 specialized DSPs. The 8 specialized DSPs are used for all vertex operations which the RSX offloads to the CELL. The RSX was altered to focus more on pixel operations. But , because of this setup, memory usage and bus bandwidth is minimized. Plus since the CELL only has one General purpose core, all of the program code that resides in main memory is lenghtier and more complex, resulting in a longer load time, more latency on the Bus.

The FLEX-IO Bus interconects the RSX to the CELL but with no advantage. What we have here is the FLEX-IO Bus is making up for the poorly designed CELL and RSX implementation. In my opinion, The CELL might be a powerfull CPU, but the implemenation on a 3D game console is not ideal, unless the CELL can perform all GPU functions. The design tries to implement a new first of a kind CPU with a traditional GPU archetechure for gaming.

Microsoft and ATI has actually innovated the way GPU's are designed. The benefit of a unified pipleline and free 4xAA enabled 100 percent of the time should make the XBOX out live the PS3 as far as graphics quality. This is why games look better on the X360. On the other hand as devlopers figure out how to effectivley use the CELLs DSPs to produce similar graphics quality PS3 games should be able to compete. But this will cost greatly for the PS3 because of increased latency and load times, and a shorter lifespan, as XBOX 360 games will getter better as developer can eaisly take advantage of unified shader pipelining.

There are some people who say that XBOX 360 is runing at it's peek performance level and that may be true due to the 100 percent GPU resource usage. But remember that the ATI Xenos is a Flexable GPU and resourses can always be realocated to the discreation of the developer. The PS3 resources are somewhat limiting to the developer regaurdless of it's powerful CELL CPU. The Graphics is key and XBOX got it right.
 
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