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Nvideas rsx pipelines vs 360 ATI pipelines 360 core vs ps3 cell
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KoOkOo67
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13. December 2005 @ 13:31 |
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Uhh, sops is a part of ops.
Both systems do the same work throughout the pipelines. No pipeline is used for somthing else. Thats multy tasking and that is what cpu's do not gpus. Sops is an opperation, so The ops through the pipelines include the sops.
Quote:
6 pipes that do Vertex shading, then say another 6 which do Sops. Thats how the GPU in the PS3 works and the old ATI GPU's.
No they dont, reason is above, and im not sure that the old ATI gpu;s did that.
>_<
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KoOkOo67
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13. December 2005 @ 13:45 |
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hmm, now we have a delema
Truthman thinks that the xbox360 ati pipelines work speretly,(multy tasking.
You think the ps3's pipelines work that way
I think non of them do.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 13. December 2005 @ 13:48
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Reasons?
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13. December 2005 @ 14:55 |
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EDRAM is part of the Xenos graphics card, on a daughter board to the mainboard. It i sused by the GPU, not CPU, you got that one really backwards.
Fanboy is a term used to describe someone who is utterly devoted to a single subject. This generally is followed by the devotion and support even when proved wrong.
Anecdotal, by my definition, it's the way too many people here think. It's also all the evidence you have.
Xbox 360 GT: NEGATIVE 273K
My advice: Wait for PS3.
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KoOkOo67
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13. December 2005 @ 15:01 |
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Who got that one backwards?
Huh, you talking to oofrome or truthman? I didnt say anything about EDram.
>_<
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Reasons?
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13. December 2005 @ 15:06 |
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If you didn't say it, then would I be refering to you? Or would I be referring to the one who did get it wrong? Damn dude, wtf, you just want to make posts or what?
Fanboy is a term used to describe someone who is utterly devoted to a single subject. This generally is followed by the devotion and support even when proved wrong.
Anecdotal, by my definition, it's the way too many people here think. It's also all the evidence you have.
Xbox 360 GT: NEGATIVE 273K
My advice: Wait for PS3.
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KoOkOo67
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13. December 2005 @ 15:08 |
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NO, whats your problem?
I said somthing about ram on the the ps3 graphic thread, and it sounded like it refered to me.
>_<
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zelda64
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13. December 2005 @ 16:02 |
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Right I am lost. Ok I think I am confusing you more. the Sops thing was just an example and is for the CPU like you say, I think I am getting mixed up.
Lets take a step back and start from the begining. I know for a fact from reading a computer text book and Computer magazines that pipelines in a GPU are used for specific tasks, e.g. 6 pipes for vertex shading.
My point is that ATI have created a card where all 48 pipes can be used for what ever graphical prosses the developer wants e.g. if he want 20 pipes for vertex shading then he uses 20 pipes but if he only needs ten pipes for vertex shading then he will only use ten.
This I am very sure of because when watching what an ATI spokes man said about the card he stated that a new design has been made and that all pipe lines can be used for any graphical prosses and are not set to do only one particular prosses like conventional GPU's. Now this cant be worse than there old GPU's otherwise ATI wouldnt go ahead and make it.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 13. December 2005 @ 16:03
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KoOkOo67
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13. December 2005 @ 16:18 |
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OK zelda lets get one thing straight.
OPS, = opperation(s) in second.
All other opperations are part of OPS.
SOPS, TOPS, GOPS, any sort of opperations is part of OPS.
And i've already said this before, all pipelines are used for what you see on the screen, graphics. As you said. The rsx does this to, they dont have different pipelines for different opperations. The point of this, is that xbox360 will have a lower ammount of ops. Therefore worse graphics. Pipelines all function the same way. There is no such thing as pipelines only for shading. Get it?
>_<
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zelda64
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13. December 2005 @ 16:28 |
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Ok I get you but still disagree with the pipelines being used for anything. I am 99% positive that on origional model GPU's that Certain pipelines are used for certain things and that the ATI GPU broke those barrier's with thier new GPU for the 360 but I will double check on the internet.
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KoOkOo67
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13. December 2005 @ 16:53 |
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I forgot all about architecture
Ahh just lets leave it at this
If the xenos or the rsx does any either of these i have just realized this
If the rsx uses different pipelines for like w.e, say 16 for graphics, 8 for the rest. It would be a ratio, like the 7800 geforce v card. Where the architecture is on a ratio.
If the rsx uses unified, where the pipeline is on a ratio, they would have to balance the ratio's.
This still leads up to one thing, the total amount of ops the rsx has, the more graphics it can produce. RSX almost 3X more ops.
2.7 (fraction wise) for each pipeline.
This all leads to the architecture wars.
Now we lead to this:
Unified ardchiteture can have a higher peak than all architectures.
but If the unified will have little ops compairing to the other architecture, that has high ops. The unified architecture will loose. But if the two have the same ops, the unified will win.Im like very bad at explaining this, ill find a better way tomorow.
I dont know if i can draw a graph ill try
Unified at 96 ops:
-|peak
-
-
-
Rsx at 96ops
.peak 96
-
-
-
Rsx at ratio with 136 (fraction) ops
-\peak 136
-
-
-
-
Sorry these graphs suck. one of these (-)would be a bar up. (.) would be half a bar.
unified architures beat all others. But not always.
rsx with the geforce architecture will beat the xenos ati unified architecure because of rsx's ops.
But yett, it isnt decided what architecture the rsx will use, even though it beats the ati xenos, both ways.
zelda, if you want ill describe the two architectures for you if you want. Unless you already get it, its kinda hard to describe it compairing against the xenos.
And even in more compairisoon,
RSX 2.7x24x550=35640
ATI 1x48x500=24000
The rsx will have more power to use for its architecture(whatever the architecture will be) compairing to the xenos, where it has little.
Rsx beats xenos, but just by a little.
>_<
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 13. December 2005 @ 17:36
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oofRome
Senior Member
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13. December 2005 @ 21:41 |
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Quote:
Flop is smaller than tflop,, mabey you ment to say tflop.
No, I said Pflops, as in petaflops, as in 10^15 flops, as opposed to Teraflops, which are 10^12 flops. Don't ever try to correct me ever again. >:o
;)
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AfterDawn Addict
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13. December 2005 @ 22:39 |
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the ps3 basically beats out the 360 im almost every aspect. the cell pwns, so does the rsx. im tired of thing where knowingly lost 360 folowers will be "omg 360 has like 280gbs of system bandwidth compared to ps3's 60 something." most people dont understand that over 250 of those gbs are for the 20 mb edram, which serves little major purpose.
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zelda64
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14. December 2005 @ 00:03 |
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At the end of the day xbox 360 and PS3 are simillar in power and if the PS3 does beat the 360 it wont be by much. I think good evidence of this are the game's themselves. Take a look at Gears of War and Fight Night Round 3. Sony used Fight Night as a technical demonstration of the PS3's power but if you go to gamespot or IGN I think you will notice the xbox 360 version of in game footage. There is no difference (if anything there is an improvement).
The PS3 is nice and powerfull but so is the 360.
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KoOkOo67
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14. December 2005 @ 02:44 |
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They wouldnt make the same game work differently on the two systems.
Ps3 also has Devil may cry 4
Metal gear solid
endless saga
metal gear solid 4
warhalk
But all these games were shown at e3 sony, no new information was said about the games.
>_<
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KoOkOo67
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14. December 2005 @ 08:18 |
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All right, i've done more research and I've found that both of us has been confuesed, exept for my last statement with the graphs.
how the architectures work with the pipeline.
unified architecture
There are no dedicated vertex and pixel shader engines, with the pipelines. So the pipelines will do both commands.
ge7800\rsx
Pipelines are dedicated to verex and pixel shader engines, with the pipelines, choice of which pipeline does what command.
pixel shader engines A pixel shader engine that determines how much shading is used for each pixel.
vertex shader enginesAlready said above.
Now we go to [unified pipeline architecture]vs [rsx architecture]
compairison:
2 pipeline, 2 ops, unified pipeline, vs 2 pipelines, 2 ops, rsx architecture.
Now, the rsx architecture is always on ratio. so it would be 1 1pipeline working on vertex shading, and the other would be working on pixel shading.
rsx Ratio: (1ops:1ops)
unified:: No ratio, what ever goes in between 0-2.
ratios vary from (0:2)(1:1)(1.5:.5)(2:0)
unified wins. Why? because they can reach a higher peak than the ratio(1:1)
now we use actual ammout of ops, for rsx and 360
We arnt using sops so:
Every pipeline the rsx has, will be able to produce 3.7 more ops.
format
Say the ATi xenos uses 1 ops.
The rsx pipeline will be? 4.7 ops.
compairason
Rsx:24 pipeline, one pipeline using 4.7 ops (5.7 sub1)
ATI:48 pipeline, one pipeline using 1.0 ops (2 sub 1)
rsx ratio
(2.35:2.35)
ati xenos at peak
Varies between: (0:1) to (1.5:.5) to (1:0)
Now, you notice that rsx at ratio, is higher than ati xenos at peak.
Now, we use SOPS format\compairison.
ATI xenos, 48 pipelines, 1 pipeline produces 2 SOPS.
NVidea rsx 24 pipelines, 1 pipeline produces 5.7 SOPS
Rsx in ratio
(2.85:2.85)
ATI xenos at peak(s)
(0:2), (1:1), to (2:0)
Rsx at ratio beats the XENOS ATI at peak!
Therefore, rsx will produce better graphics.
Now, zelda 64, you said that game developers will use the pipelines freely, therefore making the xenos more powerfull.
Wrong, game developers can use the ATI xenos pipelines freely, how ever tehy want.
Dont know how to make it very understandable, but i hope you understand this.
The game developers will have freedom between the limits of what they want to choose, which is, what i said above.
Compair it to the rsx.
What would you see?
(2.75:2.75) Ratio has more limit than alll of these. (2:0)-(0-2)(1:1)(1.5:.5) and what ever varies between 2-0.
That means the limit for the rsx is more free than what the limit is for the 360. Wow, can you imagine how strong the rsx would be if it used a unified architecture?
Now, that it is settled that the RSX is better, Which would be better, the Cell or the 3cored processor.
my oppinion The 360 will have the better processor. Because of general processing, but the ps3 will load faster, and play dvd's better.
...
HA!
One last thing, Heres power of rsx vs ati xenos. (calculated)
Do the math.
RSX 3.7x24x550mhz= 48840
ATI 1x48x500mhz=24000
...:P
I got a feeling someone is going to say this: "Look the ati will have a higher peak...48 being higher than 33.
(2:0)=(2x24:2x0)=(48:0)48/0
(2.75:2.75) =(2.75x12:2.75x12)=(33:33)33/33
No, 48/0 will be unstable, and look real bad. That would mean no pixel or vertex graphics]shading.
It would have to be arround (1.3x24:.7x24)=31.2/16.8
To be stable, and the image not to look distorted.
This leads to my second point.
Ill use the sops example, since it is starting to look biased.
RSX: (2.75:2.75)
Now to finalizise it
Rsx: Pixel engine= 2.7x12
12 being the pipeline numbe3r used for the opperation.
= 32.4
final ratio= (33.4\33.4)
ATI:
ATI: Pipeline engine(that varies)
We'll use the highest peak without poor graphics.
(1.3:.7)
1.3x31.2=41 (31 being 65% of the ammount of pipelines being used for either opperatiom
.7x16.8=11.75 (16 being 35 % of pipelines using for either opperation)
Final ratio being either
(41\11.75)
or(11.75/41)
In this case, than rsx beating the ati in one opperation, while the ati beat the ps3 in the other opperation.
>_<
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 14. December 2005 @ 09:58
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oofRome
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14. December 2005 @ 08:58 |
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Wow those are good numbers that make perfect sense...
...
...
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KoOkOo67
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14. December 2005 @ 09:03 |
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Name a flaw, why dont you?
Unless you are taling about this
RSX 3.7x24x550mhz= 48840
ATI 1x48x500mhz=24000 ,
I just did that because truth man did this on another thread,
48x500 is 24000
24x550 is 13200
The two above are nothing. It was just for truthman.
>_<
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zelda64
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14. December 2005 @ 10:47 |
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Ok Kookoo67 thanks for that. You have done your research. As soon as I have time I will look into it. So if the RSX will be more powerful than xenos how much of an improvement are you expecting game quality graphics to be over the 360?
Will it be as much as the xbox had over the PS2?
The reason why I say this is because if you have a look at Fight Night Round 3 for 360 you will notice it to be the same in quality over the PS3 technical demonstration. Also if you take a look on www.xbox360news.com at the footage a PGR3 fan took of the city's in PGR3 you will notice the graphics to be the same as that of the Getaway technical demonstration for the PS3.
Finaly Gears of War is out of this world graphics and I have seen in game footage at www.gametrailers.com. This is why I am led to believe that the xenos is just as powerful if not more than the RSX.
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KoOkOo67
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14. December 2005 @ 11:04 |
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In my oppinion, the graphics will change for the 360 and then change back.
Well ps2 had a unified arch, if you had played ff10, you would notice that some scenes will be very rich in detail and graphics, than it would go back to normal graphics.
I think that would be the same with xbox360. The ratio being (41\11.75)
or(11.75/41) at peak. There is a huge difference nbetween the numbers.
While ps3 will always be always (33.4\33.4) .
And that ratio is like constant.
so the xbox360 will have extreem graphics at some points, but then go back to regular at other points, while ps3 will always stay the same. Which is a high 33.4.
I havnt done my research to prove that, but that's oppinion bassed.
The other reason couold be that ps2 was using all its potential while those scenes. So it would of been using like 100%o fthe vcard, and then go back to 50%, orelse the system would like over heat.
But then rsx is more powerfull than the xenos.
Quote:
The reason why I say this is because if you have a look at Fight Night Round 3 for 360 you will notice it to be the same in quality over the PS3 technical demonstration.
The e3 presentation wasnt useing the rsx, nor the cell processor, they were using a completly weaker card and processor to produce that. It would be better if the rsx would be using it. W>E though.
>_<
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 14. December 2005 @ 11:06
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KoOkOo67
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14. December 2005 @ 11:32 |
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Accourding to this article.
http://www.gameshout.com/news/122005/article2002.htm
360 sold less concols in japan than the xbox did. Thats pretty bad, they didnt even sell out the xbox 360 in japan with the shortage...ouch, on the bright side its doign good in europe and north america
>_<
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zelda64
Senior Member
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14. December 2005 @ 13:25 |
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I dont quite get what your saying with, switching too and from graphic quality. All I can say is that those video's where running in game and wernt cut scenes or anything else. That was a level or scene actualy being played.
The Japanese situation with the xbox is a predictable one. I thought of it as stupid for Microsoft to release it there first before releasing it here in Australia where it will be much more appriciated and also erdicating the problem with shortages in Europe and America. The Japanese are not going to flock to the system straight away because (1) its an Amrican Company (2) It has'nt got thier usual Final Fantasy yet which they love and (3) All the good Japanese games are not finished yet so there is no insentive for them to buy the machine.
Like I said it was a dumb move by Microsoft and if I was in charge of it's stock Japan would have been the last country I would have released it in.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 14. December 2005 @ 13:28
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KoOkOo67
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14. December 2005 @ 13:38 |
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Quote:
I dont quite get what your saying with, switching too and from graphic quality. All I can say is that those video's where running in game and wernt cut scenes or anything else. That was a level or scene actualy being played.
Have you played the game?
I dont think you get what i'm saying
Look at final fantasy 12
http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/rpg/finalfantasy12/screenindex.html
Infact, take the 1st gameplay image (1/118pg)
then compair it to the
image on images added may 16 2005, all of them. Those are the cutscenes ff12 has.image 16 and above. You would notice a huge graphic difference.
>_<
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zelda64
Senior Member
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14. December 2005 @ 14:02 |
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I havent played the game obviusly. But that doesnt mean its not in game footage.
I think I get what you was talking about prevously. Those FF scenes are cut scenes then it switches to in game. My point is that Fight Night, PGR3 and Gears of War are in game and not cut scenes. That because it says on gamespot they they play tested the game.
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KoOkOo67
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14. December 2005 @ 14:10 |
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You saw those images? Then youd be suprized that it looks just as good, or better than the rsx or ati presentations. So you cant judge the games now, because you wont tell which games will have better graphics untill they master the system, like they have with Final fantasy 12. say 2-4 years, you can tell the difference between ps3 and xbox360. Do you own a ps2? if you do, rent ff12 if it comes out and try it. Somehow you say you dont like final fantasy, but you never tryed the game have you? And i never said that the 360 games will suck.
Quote:
My point is that Fight Night, PGR3 and Gears of War are in game and not cut scenes.
DUHH... did you expect it to be cutscences? ps3 is 35x more powerfull than ps2, you cant imagine what the cutscenes or gameplay at 100% pottential will look like....YETT
>_<
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 14. December 2005 @ 14:37
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AfterDawn Addict
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14. December 2005 @ 15:41 |
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for being a n00by, kookoo, i like you. you tell it straight on whats true, that we have to wait.
and your opinions are based on logic and smarts. i started a thread called "ps3 and xbox
360, a war to come.." check it out.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 14. December 2005 @ 15:44
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