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Microsoft apologizes for banning gay XBL user
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The following comments relate to this news article:
article published on 3 March, 2009
Microsoft has apologized for the banning of an Xbox Live user who self-identified herself as lesbian, even going as far as to call their policies "inelegant."
After the woman revealed her homosexuality in her Xbox Live profile, she was continuously harassed, and Microsoft banned her account, saying many gamers found "her lesbianism offensive."
Microsoft did note that their XBL policy ... [ read the full article ]
Please read the original article before posting your comments.
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Senior Member
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8. March 2009 @ 23:11 |
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It's not a no homos rule, though, it's a no sexual talk rule. I woudn't be complaining if they didn't allow religious talk. I wouldn't care if people were being banned for identifying themselves as being a part of any religion in their Live profile if there were a rule for that, the key is to follow the rules set for a service when using it...
And of course I'm going to defend myself, you grouped me in with radicals... I never defended radicals, I defended those of us who aren't, quit trying to twist my words.
I neither hate nor fear homosexuals. I live in Seattle, the whole city is gay, I don't give a f*ck. I'm saying that Microsoft is allowed to ban her because she broke a rule about discussing sexual preference. Again, IF I SAID I LIKE TO F*CK WOMEN IN MY PROFILE, I EXPECT TO BE BANNED.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 8. March 2009 @ 23:23
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ericg8
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8. March 2009 @ 23:59 |
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Originally posted by nintenut:
It's not a no homos rule, though, it's a no sexual talk rule... I neither hate nor fear homosexuals. I live in Seattle, the whole city is gay, I don't give a f*ck. I'm saying that Microsoft is allowed to ban her because she broke a rule about discussing sexual preference. Again, IF I SAID I LIKE TO F*CK WOMEN IN MY PROFILE, I EXPECT TO BE BANNED.
1) No one said she discussed sex, rather she simply identified herself as a lesbian.
2) Being a lesbian is not indicative of one's proclivity to engage in s*xual intercourse.
3) Just because it is a rule, it doesn't make it legal or right. I'm sure both pre-war Germany and the old south had all kinds of rules. I doubt anyone would suggest that enforcement of those rules was a good thing.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 9. March 2009 @ 00:52
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Senior Member
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9. March 2009 @ 00:23 |
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Originally posted by ericg8:
Originally posted by nintenut:
It's not a no homos rule, though, it's a no sexual talk rule... I neither hate nor fear homosexuals. I live in Seattle, the whole city is gay, I don't give a f*ck. I'm saying that Microsoft is allowed to ban her because she broke a rule about discussing sexual preference. Again, IF I SAID I LIKE TO F*CK WOMEN IN MY PROFILE, I EXPECT TO BE BANNED.
1) No one said she discussed sex, rather she simply identified herself as a lesbian.
2) Being a lesbian has nothing to with who a person likes to fuck, or even if they like fuck at all.
3) Just because it is a rule, it doesn't make it legal or right. I'm sure both Nazi Germany and the old south had all kinds of rules. You gonna defend those too?
#1 and #2) Being a lesbian means you, as a woman, are sexually attracted to other women.
Originally posted by dictionary.com:
ho⋅mo⋅sex⋅u⋅al⋅i⋅ty [hoh-muh-sek-shoo-al-i-tee, or, especially Brit., -seks-yoo-]
?noun
sexual desire or behavior directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex.
3) Of course I'm not going to defend the murder of millions of people, that would be ridiculous. Like comparing the banning of a person who broke a rule from an online gaming service to the Holocaust, that wouldn't make any sense for me to do.
That rule is in place because they know it's going to cause problems. And it did, it said she was harassed by homophobes.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 9. March 2009 @ 00:34
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ericg8
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9. March 2009 @ 00:46 |
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Originally posted by nintenut:
Being a lesbian means you, as a woman, are sexually attracted to other women.
There are states of being that are beyond one's control. These do not result from a decision but rather are inherent to one's internal make-up. These inherent conditions include gender, sexual orientation, nationality, race, etc.
The fact that a person is a Jew, lesbian, or African-American is not the result of a choice. And identifying one's self as a member of such a group is not the same as discussing religion, gender, sex, or race.
If she was soliciting sexual encounters then fine, a line was crossed. But, we cannot on one hand respect the right of an individual to belong to an inherent class, a protected class, and then place upon them the burden of keeping it a secret. For if we are to do that, then we don't really respect their right to be free from harassment and persecution for being a member of that group.
I would suggest that perhaps Microsoft went after the wrong people in this. I would hope that their recognition of this fact is what led to their decision to reverse their action and issue an apology.
Since you nintenut live in such a diverse environment, perhaps you can ask one of your fellow citizens to help you understand this complicated issue, before you offend any more people.
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Senior Member
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9. March 2009 @ 01:38 |
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Originally posted by ericg8:
Originally posted by nintenut:
Being a lesbian means you, as a woman, are sexually attracted to other women.
There are states of being that are beyond one's control. These do not result from a decision but rather are inherent to one's internal make-up. These inherent conditions include gender, sexual orientation, nationality, race, etc.
The fact that a person is a Jew, lesbian, or African-American is not the result of a choice. And identifying one's self as a member of such a group is not the same as discussing religion, gender, sex, or race.
If she was soliciting sexual encounters then fine, a line was crossed. But, we cannot on one hand respect the right of an individual to belong to an inherent class, a protected class, and then place upon them the burden of keeping it a secret. For if we are to do that, then we don't really respect their right to be free from harassment and persecution for being a member of that group.
I would suggest that perhaps Microsoft went after the wrong people in this. I would hope that their recognition of this fact is what led to their decision to reverse their action and issue an apology.
Since you nintenut live in such a diverse environment, perhaps you can ask one of your fellow citizens to help you understand this complicated issue, before you offend any more people.
Oh, yes, I'm sure I've offended the eyebrows off of hundreds of gay people. 9_9
I know most gay people can't help the way they feel, and I don't think they should feel ashamed, it's just how they are. I have never said or thought otherwise.
I'm not saying they need to keep it a secret, I'm saying they shouldn't advertise it. Learn to read sentences. Saying that you are attracted to certain types of people isn't something you say as you're shaking someone's hand, is it?
"Hey, my names Bob, I like girls with big jugs"?
If it came up in casual conversation during a gaming session it wouldn't have been a ban-able thing, she wouldn't have broken any rules. Homophobes would probably flip, but that's just on them.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 9. March 2009 @ 01:41
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ericg8
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9. March 2009 @ 02:36 |
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Well nintenut, now that you put it that way, I guess you are right after all.
Being visibly gay, African-American, female or Jewish is a lot like telling strangers that you "like girls with big jugs". I mean who doesn't! Especially that chick banned by MS. LOL! Not like we're "GAY" or anything. Not that there is anything wrong with that! (wink)
From now on African-Americans should drink at their own drinking fountains so that we aren't uncomfortable. Separate but equal, nothing racial or anything. I'd hate to catch black!
And Jews, perhaps they could change their names to something less Jewish. No reason to "advertise"! Perhaps a nice gentile name. If they don't, perhaps we can make them wear arm bands so we can avoid them in public. We don't want to be uncomfortable.
Women, I mean who are they kidding, right? Why do they have to say "I'm Ms. or Mrs. so-and-so" when making an introduction? They are practically advertising that they have a vagina! Can't they just keep that a secret and stay in the secretarial pool, make coffee, and...who are we kidding, they belong at home, cooking, cleaning, and making babies!
And those zany gays. I mean, I liked Three's Company as much as anybody, but can't they just stay in the closet, for Christ sake! What with their lisps and affects, it's almost like they are practically advertising their homo-nicity.
But nintenut, we are obviously enlightened. Why, Seattle is practically all fagged up! And my town has its share of Jews and Nig...I mean negros. LOL! You and I are teflon! Hell, my sister even banged a Jew and a black guy in college, AND kissed a girl on the lips, so you know I am modern egalitarian guy.
Nothing to see here folks. Nintenut has set me straight! (not that I wasn't already LOL - big jugs rock!)
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Senior Member
13 product reviews
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9. March 2009 @ 07:15 |
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Alright, tangent man, just keep twisting my words.
Outside of a relationship, that's all it is, a sexual attraction to a certain type of people. Constantly putting out your sexual attractions, or saying you're sexually attracted to certain people as an introduction, is still weird, gay or straight. It has to be in the right context.
Where are you going with the hateful racist thing?
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ericg8
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9. March 2009 @ 10:11 |
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Originally posted by nintenut:
Outside of a relationship, that's all it is, a sexual attraction to a certain type of people. Constantly putting out your sexual attractions, or saying you're sexually attracted to certain people as an introduction, is still weird, gay or straight. It has to be in the right context.
No twisting required.
She simply revealed her orientation, and you find this offensive.
She was "continuously harassed" by others who also found this offensive.
What if she was say a school teacher, and revealed her orientation. In that "context" would you find it offensive? How about if she were running for public office? Applying for a job with your company? Moving in next door?
Let us know, we would not want you to be offended.
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Senior Member
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9. March 2009 @ 17:12 |
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Originally posted by ericg8:
Originally posted by nintenut:
Outside of a relationship, that's all it is, a sexual attraction to a certain type of people. Constantly putting out your sexual attractions, or saying you're sexually attracted to certain people as an introduction, is still weird, gay or straight. It has to be in the right context.
No twisting required.
She simply revealed her orientation, and you find this offensive.
She was "continuously harassed" by others who also found this offensive.
What if she was say a school teacher, and revealed her orientation. In that "context" would you find it offensive? How about if she were running for public office? Applying for a job with your company? Moving in next door?
Let us know, we would not want you to be offended.
The only thing in this entire situation I was offended by was the complaining this caused, from people like you, who seem to think she has her sexual attractions tattooed on her forehead from birth and can't help it. There's a difference between hiding something and bringing it up at an appropriate time.
I'm defending Microsoft's ability to ban people for breaking the rules they set up, and saying that it was an odd thing for her to do.
Yeah she received harassment from homophobes, I already said that, I imagine that's partly why the rule is there in the first place.
And what if she was a teacher? What if she moved in next door, or ran for office, or any other situations you throw in from left field, who would care? If her introduction to her class was "I'm Ms. So-and-so, and I'm a lesbian", it would be an odd thing for her to do.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 9. March 2009 @ 17:21
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chrissd
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14. March 2009 @ 00:12 |
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Quote:
Originally posted by ThePastor:
A website is a privately owned space and not a democratic entity. They are completely entitled to create any rule they desire and enforce that rule in any way, fairly or unfairly as they wish.
Certainly they are required to abide by US labor laws with respect to hiring practices but the webspace is private.
Their only limitation is one of perception. If it is perceived that they are bigots then their bottom line will suffer.
Just like Afterdawn can create their rules here and ask their users to abide by them and enforce them as they wish.
In this case MS is not being unfair. They laid the rules out ahead of time. This user broke the rules and caused a severe disruption.
It seems pretty cut and dried to me.
I hope you realise that as soon as a website becomes a commercial paid for service it becomes liable for all the anti-discrimination legislation in every country it is accessible from... free to use forums are a different matter.. there any rules made can be 100% at the discretion of the owners of the site.. once you start taking money then various laws regarding use and access to the service and any discriminatory policies contained within rules can be challenged under the laws of whatever country either the site is based in.. or the complainant is from.
My previous post still stands.. M$ screwed up and have realised their rules are discriminatory... whether by accident or design they have learned another lesson about the world. Allowing people the option to say things about themselves is one thing.,. censoring them for expressing a preference which is legal to express is discrimination not a simple matter of rule breaking. The "no sexual content" means just that.. saying "oh.. I happen to be a lesbian/by/gay/trans" is not illegal and breaks no rules. If you are so bigoted and backward thinking that such statements offend you I suggest you either get an education rapidly, or rethink what religion you claim to belong to.. because you are the dinosaur.. it's the 21st century not the middle ages (though some countries are returning to them it seems). The world has changed beyond recognition.. while in practice discrimination through bigotry and hate of difference still hides behind religion and mob hysteria.. it is another thing entirely for a large company to use such lame excuses to discriminate against anyone. A few people complained they didn't like the word lesbian on a profile.. guess what.. get over it.. there are far worse things on XBL than the word lesbian.. or do you not have ears. I spent 3 minutes on there.. and that was enough for me. I don't want to hear foul mouthed homophobic racist kids screaming abuse at everybody.. no thanks. It's about playing games.. not being as offensive as possible to everybody.
Microsoft did note that their XBL policy bars "the expression of relationship preference in Gamertag profiles and tags, whether that's heterosexual or other."
MS attempted to avoid all discrimination. The person here blatantly ignored the rules. Any discrimination they "suffered" was a result of them breaking the T&Cs of the XBL account. MS are fully within their rights to ban them. The user accepted a legal agreement by using the XBL account. Banning is what the T&Cs say will happen.
It's silly minoritys, which it seems you buy into, that made it discriminatory. If someone was banned for being hetrosexual, no-one would care. If some lesbian gets banned, OMFG!!!!!! MS IS DISCRIMINATORY!!!! SUE THE BASTARDS!!!!!1!
Get a life.
Oh, it isn't homophobic. Most people you find don't actually care what you get up to. We just don't want it shoved down our throats. Jehovahs Witnesses and "gays". Who cares what you get up to in your private time. XBL is for playing games.
Quote:
It's about playing games.. not being as offensive as possible to everybody.
Exactly. I don't want to listen to foul mouthed kids screaming abuse at me over their sexuality. I want to play a fking game.
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chrissd
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5. July 2009 @ 04:26 |
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Originally posted by ThePastor:
Why do you call me a bigot, insult or attack my "religion" which you don't even know what it is and then insult me as a "dinosaur" or from the "middle ages"?
A) I have never been, nor will I ever be a bigot of any kind and my words and deeds express this entirely.
B) You have no clue what my religion is or isn't so have no basis for criticism.
C) I am a very enlightened, modern man who understands the intricacies of running a large online space. I have a great amount of experience doing it. I'm not some middle aged bumkin pulling crap out of my ass.
I've never insulted you or your opinions. I have no idea why you have reacted in this way and I demand an apology.
If you cannot debate an issue intelligently and without insults and attacks then maybe you should take a day or two off.
It's varnull. :P Slight note, if you've really had experience "running a large online space", then you'd know that:
A) Demanding an apology is useless
B) Some people will react badly just because they can without any aggravation neccessary.
Note about the original article which most of you seem to have missed, the person broke a rule in the XBL EULA. They deserve to get kicked off for that.
But, as always, it's only sexist if they're male, it's only racist if they're white and it's only discriminatory if you're the one who got kicked for shoving your views down someone elses throat. Same reason a company will put a female with no qualifications onto a board is the same reason MSFT is apologising.
They may be right, the person may have violated the license agreements, they may have done everything correct according to a court of law, but they'd still get sued and lose because the "minority" can claim discrimination and people will still follow them. One of the german people put it well, the masses are stupid. :P And played oh so easily.
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