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World Opinion
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DarkmanX
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23. April 2004 @ 17:39 |
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I always see on the news how world opinion is negative towards the U.S. and the war on Iraq. Sense members of this great sight are citizens of the world, I was wondering how citizens of other countries view America and her efforts against the war on terrorism; more importantly, would you support your own government in assisting in the war on terrorism?
Silent Assasin |
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AfterDawn Addict
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23. April 2004 @ 19:13 |
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Americans foreign policy is somwhat of a major issue around the world. Think of America as this:
America - Big Giant Man Walking through woods
Rest of World - An ant-hill somewhere in the forest
Big Giant Man is walking through the forest. Comes across a big ant-hill, but instead of walking round it to avoid the ants, Big Giant Man walks right over the top of them. Then, Big Giant Man goes to sleep in his tent near the ant-hill. He wakes up in the middle of the night with loads of ant-bites all over him and he thinks to hiself:
"Why are the ants all biting me? What did i do to deserve it?"
Americans would be far better suited to sorting out their own crime, poverty and other domestic problems before they go plundering around the rest of the world sorting out theirs. American's, in my opinion, believe democracy should be with-held, but not practiced. Why do they feel the need to poke their noses into every little thing.
Americans say, Iran was causing us problems, lets give Iraq loads of weapons to supress Iran and prevent them from becoming "a potential threat". So they have a coot, bring a dictatorship into power, supply him with loads of arms and make him a powerful man (Hussein). Then, they are surprised when this man decides he likes this power he has and wants to try and take over a few other countries (something America has not sanctioned). So, America can no longer control him and they launch a pointless dessert storm and then pull out leaving thousands to die.
Who do you think supplied Osama Bin Laden with his weapons. Osama Bin Laden was largerly funded by the CIA with a lot of cash. Then, as history always dictates, give someone too much power and they want more. The whole 20th century is listed with loads of instances were America has given arms and power to people to suit their own needs. America overthrow many leaders around the world, even though they were democratically elected, and place a dictatorship in power instead. Are people really surprised why so many people hate America? And America claims to practice Democracy - I disagree - America trys to uphold it, not practice it.
I ask you this: Why is it so many people are shot in America and so many are killed by gunfire each year. Americans are gun-nuts, and power-nuts. Ok, Canadians may have more guns per capita, but why is it that very little canadians are murdered by guns each year?
I ask you this: Why is the legal age to drink in America 21, yet you can buy a gun with a drivers licence when you are 16 years old. Is that to saw you are mature enough to take on the responsibility of an assult weapon (what a gun is) but not capable of drinking? Which do you think would lead to more problems - 16 year olds walking around with guns, or 16 year olds pissed out of their minds?
Thanks
Chris
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ken0042
Senior Member
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23. April 2004 @ 19:16 |
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Bring on the drunk 16 year olds!
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23. April 2004 @ 19:28 |
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Being Australian and Australia being a little dot on the planet, I hate this whole war crap.
America need to pull their heads in and work on their own country before trying to control others. All attempts to prove Weapons of Destruction were being stored or made have turned up to be nothing Nada.
Bush is just like his Dad, a complete control freak.
I watch the news in fear, fear for the next suicide bomber, fear for the next mother and child being blown up fear for the next country in turmoil.
When 911 happened my son watch the footage in the morning, he ran into my room and said "Mummy I can't go to school today, thousands of preople died today and some where mums like you" I was shocked.
I am forever waiting for something to happen to Australia, something thats not deserved.
Protect those who need protecting, help those who need help, fix what needs fixing BUT don't try to control something thats not yours.
P.S Australias legal age is 18 to drink, 16 to get your drivers licence, but thanx to an insane Mad man guns are a little harder to come by
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This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 23. April 2004 @ 19:30
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23. April 2004 @ 19:33 |
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Firstly, just like to ask - aint Australians just British convicts sent to a penal colony lol - im kidding.
Just wanted to say, Americas war on terrorism was to prevent world terrorists and help us rest easy. Since America startedits war on Terrorism, who here feels a lot safer?
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I watch the news in fear, fear for the next suicide bomber, fear for the next mother and child being blown up fear for the next country in turmoil.
I think that quotation is the opinion of most people now. One of the best points i've heard just came from our Sam - take head everyone:
Protect those who need protecting, help those who need help, fix what needs fixing BUT don't try to control something thats not yours.
"BUT don't try to control something thats not yours." - that also applies to women guys ;-)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 23. April 2004 @ 19:35
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23. April 2004 @ 19:45 |
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I think, every morning when we wake up and see the sun, we're lucky to be alive. Australia is an easy country to destroy. Our standards on immigration need to be looked at again, as we let have the killers in.
Grrr dont get me started
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23. April 2004 @ 22:42 |
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Being a very proud American, I will say that our politicians like to stick their noses where they don't belong.
I just hate it when people from other countries assume that all Americans think like our idiot politicians do - we don't!
Sure we can vote them out, but there hasn't been one single presidential candidate I've truly liked since I was able to vote. Our political system has been perverted into a rich man's game. It's a choice between shithead A and shithead B.
Abraham Lincoln grew up dirt poor, taught himself to read and was downright ugly but he was one of the greatest Presidents this country will ever see. He would never get elected today. Why? Because he had integrity. This country hasn't seen a president with integrity for decades. The last one that had any semblance of integrity got his head blown off by Oswald.
I'm damn proud of my country and it's people, but I do have a lot of problems with the things my government does.
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33 |
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23. April 2004 @ 23:08 |
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Nephilim, I don't judge a country by its people, i'm sorry if I came across like that. I love Americans, my future Husband is Yank *waves to future husband Brad Pitt* LOL
Look at our so called "Men In Charge" he has eyebrows long enough to plait, is as short as a gnome and wouldnt know shit from clay.
God could you wake up to his butt ugly mug??I know I couldn't without chewing my right arm off
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brian100
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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24. April 2004 @ 06:29 |
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Nephilim
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Our political system has been perverted into a rich man's game. It's a choice between shithead A and shithead B.
I really think that hits the nail on the head.
America needs (DESERVES) some integrity & intelligence at the top of the pile.
Its a shame Michael Moore can't run, it's be far more fun!! (ignore that statement, but hey that guys got good sense, he listens, he gathers the facts and then acts)
As a brit I honestly get embarrased when Tony Blair appears to "carry" George Bush through joint news conferences that they have. It puts out extremely bad signals for everyone who listens, IE who's in charge, who's thinking, who cares!!
As a brit I dont dislike Americans, as do many others in my country. I just feel at times that America could really make a great difference to world stability if they simply looked at the facts & formed a properly constructed strategy before appearing to plunder!!.
Please don't take offence, these observations, in my opinion are constructive.
Looking for my old AD This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 24. April 2004 @ 06:31
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DarkmanX
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24. April 2004 @ 07:23 |
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Great comments and input! Just for clarrification though, Americans CAN NOT buy firearms at 16. That is against the law. you must be 18 to purchase a rifle/shotgun and 21 for a handgun. You're also correct that America has created distrust throughout the world by assisting militants to overthrough governments for our own gain. However, the sins of the past are just that; in the past-we can only account for what we do today. How many countries, other than america, has a conflict with another country and then pays to rebuild it? Politics today do suck, but we did not ask to have bombs at our overseas embassies killing marines, we did not ask to have bombings that killed americans in the Kolbar towers Riyhad, saudi arabia, and we certainly did not ask to have jumbo jets flown into skyscrapers. What do we do, nothing. There was a car bomb at the twin towers in the early 90's and we did nothing, we did nothing for the bombing of the USS Cole, or the Kolbar Towers incident. The terrorist were allowed to attack us over and over for years now with no reaction from america. we are looked upon by the world as this "Giant" and yet, if anything is accomplished throughout the world-we have to do it. We provide almost 1/2 the funding for the U.N. and if you want to criticize a political entity, it's the U.N. They are just a bunch of figure heads who sit around and what to talk, never act. They gave Hussein countless resolutions that he blantantly ignored time and time again. They are all talk and no action-hence no credibility to a terrorists. Speaking of politics, it has been proven that most of the countries that spoke against the war (France, Canada, Germany, Russia) have contracts guaranteeing oil from Iraq. So are they acting in whats right or are they interested in monetary gain? In my opinion, this is nothing more then dealing with a school yard bully. If you don't act, the bully will become encouraged to do more. Look what happened in Spain. Americans are spoiled, and we have many liberties that we take for granted. We don't live in an Afganistan where everyday could be a war zone. We never have the stomach to follow through when it comes to engagements; and I think that the terrorists are counting on a lack of resolve from america. If they continue to inflict casulaties on us, I think they believe we will leave, which will only encourage more outright incidents! Since this is an election year I believe that there may be more incidents to try and discredit Bush so he'll lose the election, because they know that his competition will leave there land if he wins the presidency and then what will negate them to continue their inhumane activity. They just bombed a bunch of their own children!!!
Silent Assasin
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24. April 2004 @ 08:06 |
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has a conflict with another country and then pays to rebuild it?
lol - I ask you this - who got the building contracts to rebuild Iraq? Was it Iraqi's, NO. Was it middle-eastern countries - NO. Was it mostly American contractors?? _ YES IT WAS. So therefore, by blowing Iraq to bits, and then rebuilding it, America is in effect strengthening its economy....is it not?
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DarkmanX
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24. April 2004 @ 15:56 |
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Oriphus, I have come to think that you are a very knowledgable person, and I admit that U.S. contractors are getting most of the work, but to be fair, the U.S. is the one taking casulaties. The middle eastern countries don't even want us to be there. It has been documented that saudi arabia has a hand in the 9/11 event, particularly in funding. Where is the help from the very people we are fighting to liberate. No one is providing intelligence as to the identity of these cowards who fire on troops from crowds of civilians. The U.S. has to be politically correct in our tactics, the terrorists are playing by a different sort of rules. Besides, the weapons of mass destruction was just one facid of this war. It had been documented that Saddam had weapons in the 90's because he had used them against his own people. The other facid was the war on countries harboring terrorists and training camps. We gave Saddam months to leave his country and he chose to stay. He ignored countless U.N. resolutions that he was suppose to abide by after Desert Storm. We didn't wake up one morning and say, we need to stimulate our ecomony, let's start a war! As previously pointed out, we were attacked time and time again with no backlash from america. Terrorist cells were planted in the U.S. for years to take training on how to fly planes and plan there attack. Why haven't we heard from the peaceful muslims to standup against terrorists acting in the name of their religion? Where is the outrage from Aljazeera? There is suppose to be a ceasefire, yet american forces are still being attacked. We see people rejoice as a humvee is on fire with dead americans inside. How about sone information about who these people are. They walk around with rocket propelled grenade launchers on tv, and then they are combatants the next.I'm not saying I have the answers and I think that it's good that we can discuss this from different cultural points of view. I think for better or worst, we have to see this through or it will only strengthen the resolve of terrorists throughout the world.
Silent Assasin
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24. April 2004 @ 17:14 |
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Oriphus, I have come to think that you are a very knowledgable person
Ohh, theres your first mistake lol :-D
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We didn't wake up one morning and say, we need to stimulate our ecomony, let's start a war!
Very true of course. It wasnt my intention to imply this. What i do think is that the Americans, after going from 'Anti-World' in the early part of the 20th Century, were they put massive importation levies on all goods around the world and effectly isolated themselves from the rest of the world, to a 'pro-world' lets stick our noses into everything and manipulate everyone elses domestic and foreign policy.
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The other facid was the war on countries harboring terrorists and training camps.
Generally speaking, why is there a waar on terrorism? Why are there terrorists? OK, this applies to many and not all...
Take the Palestine Suicide Bombers...are they terrorists?
Take the Republican IRA...are they terrorists?
Take many of the owlrds so called terrorists, and decide...are they terrorists? The reason i ask this is because i see a distinction between acts of pure terrorism (in an attempt for power/domination/general mayhem, and what i consider forced terrorism.
Terrorism - The systematic use of terror and intimidation to achieve ones goal(s) - what i perceive the term to mean.
What is the Basic Human Right - The right to life. One of those basic principles is the right to freedom. Freedom from terror and imtimidation. However, what do you do in the situation where someone has invaded your land, stolen it and forced you to live elsewhere, even in camps? What do you do if someone forces their laws/opinions/foreign and doemstic policies upon you.
Two classic examples:
1). The IRA are terrorists in the broad sense of the word. They do kill innocent people and they do intimidate and terrorise. However, is there a reason behind these acts of violence or are they mainly just 'bad' people. Was they're land invaded by the British, and do they have a right to try and defend/attack the original aggressors?
2). The Palestine suicide bombers and general terrorists (such as Hamas, PLO, PFLP and a few others) do attack and kill many innocent civilians. Whats their reason? Oppression, forced governing, poor lifestyles and stolen land.
What the point that im getting at, and its not merely addressed towards the US, is that the main reason for terrorism always tends to relate back to the fundamental principle of the Freedom poeple are given under the world constitution of Human Rights, that is abused and taken away from many. By taking peoples freedom, land, towns, cities, industries, money; it is inevitable that they wont be happy about it. It is inevitable that they will want it back and it is inevitable that they will attempt to get it back via all means posssible. If this means terrorism, then so be it. But i ask you, who is to blame? The terrorists or the oppressors?
I just want to clarify that im not having a go at the America people in general. Im having a go at all nations who actively or behind the scenes engage in acts of injustices to peoples around the world. Saddam Hussein was a bad person, and although i feel the war was unjust, something did need to be done about the suffering of many of its people. Al-Queda only came about because of one rich man (Osama) and its suppliers (the US). Al-Queda however, wuld never of attacked America unless they felt a great grevience towards them (the plight of their fello Palestines and other causes) which (the plight that is) was supported by the Americans. We are talking about people who are taking their own lives in a cause they feel is just....its that extreme. So to be that extreme, the oppression they feel they suffer is equally extreme.
Who's fault is it that Al-Queda attacked the US. Al-Queda's? Or could it be the US's for supporting Isreal and other similiar foreign policies? I dont know?
Just want to point out what thing - although i have said very negative things about America, i do actually like the country and its people, and spend a good bit of time there....So peace to anyone who may feel agrieved or offended by my comments/
Chris
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24. April 2004 @ 17:31 |
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Sorry, couldn't resist
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AfterDawn Addict
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24. April 2004 @ 18:40 |
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Nice touch as usually ;-)
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DarkmanX
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24. April 2004 @ 20:03 |
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No hard feelings at all! That was why I started the thread, to hear from other perspectives. "...after going from 'Anti-World' in the early part of the 20th Century, were they put massive importation levies on all goods around the world and effectly isolated themselves from the rest of the world, to a 'pro-world' lets stick our noses into everything and manipulate everyone elses domestic and foreign policy". This is true, but we have over compensated for this past transgression. Now look at our foreign trade policy, we get screwed by Japan and China becasue they levy heavy taxes on our products and we allow them to thrive in ours because we don't have a fair trade policy. I agree that the term terrorist depends on what side of the coin you're looking at! Some may call these groups freedom fighters, hell, our forefathers may have been considered terrorist when we faught to liberate against Britain. As far as Bin Laden goes; we had a mutual enemy at the time , so we aided his cause as long as it benefited us, but it seems that throughout history, there are several allies that were once enemies. I'm not attacking you Oriphus, and I won't make the mistake of assuming you're knowledgable again, but you're one of the few to engage in this discussion. Thanks for the insightful thoughts
Silent Assasin
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24. April 2004 @ 20:24 |
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As a proud American, I am not so proud to admit that a very large part of our international policy is based on economics, (largely our economics). Oriphus was right when he said that Hussein and Bin Laden were failed by products of US policy and so was Panama?s Manuel Noriega, and then there was the puppet government we tried to erect and support in Vietnam. In fact there are few nations in modern history (with the possible exception of English colonialism, yes Oriphus I saw Gandhi) that have so ruthlessly and negatively affected the direction of less fortunate peoples?. Like Nephilim I too have a hard time placing my trust in politicians who are so wealthy that they no longer need to work to provide for their needs and in their boredom think that being the President might be a nice role to play. In affect we Americans have become a Macro play house for silly rich kids who never had to struggle for anything. I do however still participate in the process in spite of the dislikes I have for candidates of either side, because there is always one of them that is a little less nastier then the other and therefore the better choice. Let?s just say that in my opinion Moses stood before the wrong burning Bush.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 24. April 2004 @ 20:28
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25. April 2004 @ 00:00 |
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****First off ******
To Samantha and all others - I didn't mean to imply any sort of angry tone with anyone and wasn't taking umbrage at anything anyone said :) It's all good!
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I just feel at times that America could really make a great difference to world stability if they simply looked at the facts & formed a properly constructed strategy before appearing to plunder!!
That's what truly breaks my heart. Our gov't could but it doesn't.
How is it supposed to look when the gov't contracts for fuel in Iraq are awarded to Dick Cheney's former company (Haliburton) without any bidding and then the bastards grossly overcharge the gov't while they're at it. How is any country supposed to respect us when blatantly corrupt crap like that goes on. We can't even keep consistent foreign policy - we've had an embargo against Cuba for decades because of human rights violations yet we do billions of dollars worth of trade with China (great human rights there!).
Respect has to be earned through consistent and fair actions. Our gov't likes to try and buy it.
Now don't anybody get me wrong, I love my country and it's heritage with all my heart - I just can't stand all these idiot politicians with their "hooray for me and f*ck everyone else" adgendas.
One other thing, I know a lot of people like him but Michael Moore is a worthless turd. Just my opinion :)
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 25. April 2004 @ 00:01
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AfterDawn Addict
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25. April 2004 @ 04:09 |
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Nephilim, there is nothing un-American about saying it like it is, it?s your right. Jefferson believed that it was the people?s duty to openly disagree with our governments bad decisions and to even stand up to them. You?ve come close to stating what most of the Planet has already come to believe, that it was about oil and that 911 provided our government with the lame excuse they needed to go to war to get it. I think that the former president Bush?s Vice President Dan Quayle says it best (These are real Quotes).
The U.S. victory in Gulf war was a stirring victory for the forces of aggression.
Vice President Dan Quayle, 4/11/91 (reported in Esquire, 8/92)
I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy - but that could change.
Dan Quayle, 5/22/89
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
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DarkmanX
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25. April 2004 @ 05:44 |
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Amen Nephilim! "Respect has to be earned through consistent and fair actions. Our gov't likes to try and buy it." Obviously, China doesn't respect us, yet we allow that bogus foreign trade policy to exist where are products are levied an incredible tariff and theirs are not. Great analogy about the bored rich kid! Unfortunately, the way the system is set up, you have to have access to money to run for office.
Sophocles, I'm not saying that American companies are not benefiting from the war in Iraq, but to say it was an excuse is a little conspiracy theory, don't you think? Are you saying that we should've just turned the other cheek, again?! What kind of credibility would we have, let alone respect if we allowed a bully to continually slap us in the face?Clinton had many opportunities to go after these terrorist, including Bin Laden and he didn't. He allowed the bombings to continue with only a lame ass response like, "lets have a bombing for a week, in a giant sandbox! That'll teach them". He allowed cells to train freely in countries that supported terrorists. He even cut the military's budget and manpower. He wanted to dismantle the CIA. With all of these efforts, we relied on technology and became spoiled with relying on technology (satelites, electronic monitoring equipment) for national security. We had no men on the ground to gather intelligence about how terrorist were preparing a war against us, now we are criticized because we are at war with them! Why did we even stop when we were there the first time in 1991? If it was all about the oil, we could've taken it then?
Silent Assasin
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25. April 2004 @ 06:50 |
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Actually in my opinion, and quite a lot of others, Clinton was the second best president America has had in recent times. OK - he wasnt perfect, not by a long shot - but he was substantially better than other ones, who will remain nameles (yes both bushes - i wont mention ur name - oops). When i say recent times, i go back maybe 40 odd years or so, just after the infamous Kennedy era - he wouldve been a wonderful president. Everyone loved him....very sad.
I just want to go back to something. Darkman, i respect your opinion and others and belive it is based on a lot of good knowledge. But, i think we're missing the reason for why there are bombs and terrorist attacks on the US. "What comes around goes around", plays a key role here. The bombings are a direct result of oppression, suppresion and other wrongful foreign policies. Instead of saying "Whay didnt Clinton go off and sort out terroris?", maybe the question shouldve been, "Why did the US stop hiding behind an allegiance with the Isreali's and prevent the Human Rights of thousands of Palestines from being infringed upon to strong degrees?"
I know we are all for living for today and forgetting the past, but the past haunts those who were effected and their hatred will probably not faulter for some time. It's like taking a Jew to an ex-Nazi part member (highup member if still alive) and telling him he should forgive the NAZI. Should he?
History certainly is littered with allies becoming enemies and enemies becoming allies. The problem is always related back to power struggles. War always starts over wanting something you cant have...
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AfterDawn Addict
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25. April 2004 @ 07:35 |
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DarkmanX, one only turns a cheek after it has been struck. The Iraqis did nothing to us directly and it is been proved that they had no connection to 911 and that they had no weapons of mass destruction, so now our government uses the excuse that he was just a bad guy. I think we had a right to go into Afghanistan because there was a connection to Al Qaeda and Bin Laden and that means that they chose us as their enemy first. In spite of that we expend more of our resources in Iraq then we do in Afghanistan. Why? Because Iraq may have as much as 40% of the world?s oil supply. Oil is a nonrenewable resource and because it is dwindling and in short supply it may one day be the determining factor in world power. We are a resilient and wealthy country and we should be able find a replacement for this dated energy source. This isn?t a conspiracy scenario, this is what?s happening.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
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25. April 2004 @ 09:29 |
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I think we had a right to go into Afghanistan because there was a connection to Al Qaeda and Bin Laden and that means that they chose us as their enemy first
That right there is America's problem. They belive that they were attacked first. They belive that they are the victims. Its all incorrect. The American Governments are the instigators - the cause of the backlash (which is what it is).
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DarkmanX
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25. April 2004 @ 11:23 |
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I agree that Clinton was a very charismatic (sp?) president, but he was like a parent who wants to be the child's friend as opposed to being the parent. Sometimes, people aren't going to like the decisions the parents make, but they need to be made. Clinton never addressed any of the foreign affairs issues, he let them fester and now look at the cancer we hace that is spreading.
"What comes around goes around, plays a key role here. The bombings are a direct result of oppression, suppresion and other wrongful foreign policies".
I don't remember us directly attacking any countries before 9/11. Are we to turn our backs on allies if we don't agree with some of their policies? We don't always agree with the decisions our friends make, but we don't cut them out of our lives if they don't act as we would like them to.
And yes there are incidents that have occurred in the past that are wrong, but should we leave America because the Indians were here first and wrongly treated? Should we pay African Americans money because of the oppression they endured for 400 years? Should we kill people who are of Nazi decent? The point I'm making is that we must acknowledge that things did occur, but other than to ensure that these things don't happen again, what else can we do?
Again, Oil is part of the equation, but the rest of the world wanted nothing to do with helping us, and now they are all concerned about the oil and why they can't get a piece of the pie.
Sophocles, there has been proof that he was in possession of weapons of mass destruction. I think we want to put that term in the category of a nuke, but chemical agents can be classified as weapons of mass destruction too. It has been proven that Saddam had raw materials to produce nerve agents; besides, if these items didn't exist, why have troops found enemy soldiers wearing chem suits and stock piles of gas masks if they don't possess the stuff?
Iraq is known to be a haven for terror training and camps, not to mention that Saddam put out a contract to assasinate the first prsident Bush.
Just so we are clear Oriphus (luv the name!) what has America instigated?
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Silent Assasin
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 25. April 2004 @ 11:27
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brian100
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25. April 2004 @ 11:56 |
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Iraq is known to be a haven for terror training and camps, not to mention that Saddam put out a contract to assasinate the first prsident Bush.
The people of the world can be told anything, by ANYONE to "smooth over" military action. If you constantly hear news stories from "one side" the "Truth" tends to wobble at times.
Looking for my old AD
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