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SOME SERIOUS next-gen discs DISCUSSION.
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Senior Member
1 product review
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7. March 2006 @ 20:02 |
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Hi,
I post here becaus i want some serious disciussion and teh deedicated BD/HD DVD forums just doens;t get much traffic.
Ok it looks like its about less than 50 days before the first set of Blu-
Ray movies will be out, so apparetnly all the specs and DRM have been
settled for now. But it seems to me that next Generation Dicsc are a
complete rip off of your consummer rights- You REALLY no longer own
anything that you buy. Before- ok, it says that you don't actually own the
movie when you buy it, but whos stopping you from doing what ever you want
with the movie you bought? Now with teh next gen of discs there are
restictions on Steaming the video through the house, playing on different
DVD players in the same house, backingup... the list goes on. Now the
companys can theritically pull the plug on your player if you violate any
agreements.- They have a whole divion just dedicated to DRM and Key
magangment.
DVDs-i am sure we all agree that when we shell out money we want to keep
the product in it means backing it up- and luckily that's possible. The
next gen Discs probabaly won't be possible. DVD's CSS uses 40bit stream
chiper that took a little while to crack and one set of keys breaks all-
good. BUT Blu-Ray for example encompusss a boat load of protection, the
main one being a 128/256 bit Block AES chiper that encipts the whole movie.
It is estimated that it takes a super computer 149 thousand billion years
to break a 128bit AES Key. Ok if someone does manage to break an AES key in
a more imaginable time period and somehow copy Backup the blueray disc,
studios can revoke the key right away and future discs will never carry
that busted key again. Hence every key on every disc will have to be
indiviudally cracked to back it up.AND if the player detects that the burnt
discs has no encription it will spit the video out in low 480i res.-That's
called screwing with you. Gentlemen, we are seriously on the verge of
determining where the digital ages heads as these big corpration are trying
to take over of all our rights. Note: this next gen discs are setting a
prescident. (Just a bit ago Studios almost forced FCC to reqire Flags which
will prohibit Cable TV shos from ebing recorded-luckily a court struct this
round of attempts down.) The way i see it- If these big money hungery corps
don't come up with consummer friendly ways of DRM, then we boycott them,
only then will we possibly be agble to call teh shots as consummers.
Are we loosing almost all of our somsumer rights when we buy next gen
discs?(Fox almost suggested that Blu ray should follow the software system-
1 copy per player- that would suck the day when that happend i am out of
here.)There are sad attempts to give us some rights like HP's sugested
Managed copy systemwhere you can rip one copy of the disc on to a secure
place- but will that go through money-ass hungury co. like Sony? proabably
not.
What makes all this worse- format wars. HD DVD seems lighter on teh DRM
issue manily becasue SONY isn;t on there side. BTW if you want to hate a
co. SOny is the one. i love it how they are being shot about the rootkit
problem that instead of offereing DRM it allowed hackers to attak your PC.
BTW If you own any of those CDs you can still be part of teh class-cation
settlement, or sue yourself before May i think. Anyway, I realy don't care
who will win as long as they make consumer friendly DRM. My prediction is:
Blu-ray because they have teh PS3. you may say: XBOBX 360 has HD DVD! I
would say WHERE? It was a very bad move to try to gain market by releaseing
360 early and not put HD DVD feature- good job microsoft you just lost the
format wars dumbass. Now when people that own a 360 want next gen they have
a equal choice of ray or HD, but when already PS3 owners go next-gen they
alreay got a blu ray drive right there, so bam they easily hit a couple
titles. It looks like SONY, this time around, is not willing to loose
another fromat wars. (SONY's Spec-better BETAMAX lost to VHS back in 80s.-
This looks like the spec-better blu-ray v. HD DVD...)- brings to another
point. Becasue blu0ray is cranking out 5 Gb more than HD DVD they need a
more foucused laser on the data pits and in order to do that the pits are
closer to the surface of the discs than HD's Pits. We are talking .6mm for
HD and only .1mm for blu-ray.- this is another reason why early blu-ray
discs were not discs but catriages. having only .1mm of thickness to
protect the pits is...well, honarble if Sony can do a good job. The way i
look at it, unless some amazing breakthrough in physical disc protection
occurs, blu-ray disc buyers will soon find that a few light bumps and
scraps will render blu-ray discs unplayable or jummpy. ANd that may just be
Blurays Archillie's heel.
make informed next-gen deiscison before shelling out $30 a pop on may 23rd,
j
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Senior Member
1 product review
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7. March 2006 @ 20:04 |
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hi,
shit sorry i wrote this in notepad first and apparently that makes it double spaced when it's in the reply box.
peace,
j
BTW: here are relases for MAy 23 USA:
SPHE and MGM will initially release eight titles on May 23rd:
* 50 First Dates
* The Fifth Element
* Hitch
* House of Flying Daggers
* A Knight's Tale
* The Last Waltz (MGM)
* Resident Evil Apocalypse
* XXX
Lionsgate will release five BD titles to retail on May 23rd:
* Crash
* Lord of War
* The Punisher
* Saw
* Terminator 2: Judgment Day
Note this date is the same date the first US consummer BD player wikll be launched- Samsung's BD-P1000. I wonder why it's P1000? Could i be becasue it will cost $1000? hhmmm.....
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 7. March 2006 @ 20:08
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Senior Member
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8. March 2006 @ 03:50 |
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I won't be buying the HD format movies, even when I get an HD tv. Not gonna buy an HD dvd player, at least, not for a very long time.
I'm hoping these new formats for movies, take the same route as the sacd and dvd-a music discs. Meaning.........they are there for the people that want them, but not taking over as the primary format. We're already being forced into digital tv, just to be able to watch tv. Don't try to force me into buying an HD dvd player too.
If the players ever get to the $100 - $150 price range, and the movies get to the $15 - $18 price range, THEN I might buy.......but that's probably several years away. As good as the PQ is on dvds now, there isn't going to be enough of a noticable difference, to warrant spending the kind of money it's gonna take to get setup for the new formats.
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AfterDawn Addict
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8. March 2006 @ 04:58 |
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Most people aren't even using dual layers yet, so why worry now about the more esoteric media?:-)
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AfterDawn Addict
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8. March 2006 @ 05:28 |
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I doubt it there is going to be a mad dash to buy these formats, heck they are still selling VHS.
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Member
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8. March 2006 @ 05:55 |
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And there's nothing like listening to 3 dog night on my 8 track. LOL
New build with goodies
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AfterDawn Addict
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8. March 2006 @ 06:01 |
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I prefer my scratchy 45's and a turntable, lol :)
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AfterDawn Addict
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8. March 2006 @ 07:50 |
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I really like my 78RPMs....
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AfterDawn Addict
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8. March 2006 @ 19:10 |
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As long as I have my 55" Widescreen SONY HDTV (that has Hi-Scan 1080i, DRC: Digital Reality Creation, Progressive scan supported, DVD-RB Pro + CCE SP, DVDFAB Decrypter (continue to updates), VobBlanker, FixVTS, PgcEdit, PSL plugins, DVD Decrypter and Nero, I'm cool with DVD+R and DVD+R DL media. Furthermore, as long as Taiyo Yuden Co. Ltd., and Mitsubishi Chemical Corp. exist, I won't be getting any BD or HD DVD anytime soon.
I may consider BD DVD down the road once Blu-ray DVD burners cost somewhere like $150 - $200. Plus when Blu-ray DVD players cost $100 - $200 and Blu-ray disc(blank) cost $5 a piece only. Otherwise, I could careless how many GBs a BD can holds or how crystal clear a BD DVD movie is when playing.
And yes, I agree with buddy "arniebear" that they're still selling VHS, so why bother BD & HD DVD? Reality is that half (or not even half) of the people around the world still use VHS, VCD, SVCD and DVD. Hence, some doesn't even know anything about DVD+R DL and or it's existence.
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Senior Member
1 product review
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9. March 2006 @ 17:36 |
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hi,
but when the inevitable comes, we really got to fight for our comsummer rights....
j
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Senior Member
1 product review
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9. March 2006 @ 18:44 |
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Hi here is more infro from CDfreak:
sidz used our news submit to tell us that a former Apple executive is voicing strong opposition to the next gen formats, due to planned changes in copy controls. With the advent of new sophisticated Digital Rights Management, he says the concept of fair use is going to go by the wayside. Therefore, he has decided to ask for funding to help organize a boycott.
The boycott is in protest against the latest DRM (digital rights management) technologies built into the Blu-ray and HD-DVD standards which technology watcher and former Apple executive, Mike Evangelist, believes will greatly curtail consumer freedom when it comes to how they choose to view high definition media content.
He has set up a dedicated site on his writersblocklive weblog calling for the boycott and is seeking donations to help launch a Google advertising campaign to promote the cause.
The boycott targets the Advanced Access Content System (AACS) technology finalised last month for pre-recorded and recordable optical media by an alliance that includes IBM, Microsoft, Intel, Sony, Toshiba, The Walt Disney company and Warner Bros Studios.
Mr Evangelist writes: "Under pressure from Hollywood, they are engineering a complete removal of the concept of fair use. They are setting up systems that will completely control how, when and where you can use content that you buy. Even worse, they can retroactively change the rules."
He goes on to say what most readers here already know, or at least can suspect; That the content providers are merely using the piracy issue as a smokescreen in order to create and implement newer, more sophisticated controls. To say this man is bitter is an understatement, when we read this quote: "Throughout my life I have embraced just about every new format that comes along, but when it comes to HD-DVD I'm done,"
If you are a believer in fair use rights, this campaign might be worth investing in. It is critical to get the word out to the public, so that they can make an informed decision about blue laser products, especially those saddled with AACS. An Internet Google advertisement could be quite effective in this respect. Even if this is not what the corporations and Hollywood have in mind, there is no harm in a public awareness campaign!
The boycott site is: http://writersblocklive.com/boycott/
Good Luck,
j
YOU ARE VERY WELCOME TO USE THE 'HD Boycott" BANNERS. IN FACT PLEASE US THEM!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 9. March 2006 @ 18:58
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JaguarGod
Senior Member
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10. March 2006 @ 12:45 |
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Quote:
BTW: here are relases for MAy 23 USA:
SPHE and MGM will initially release eight titles on May 23rd:
* 50 First Dates
* The Fifth Element
* Hitch
* House of Flying Daggers
* A Knight's Tale
* The Last Waltz (MGM)
* Resident Evil Apocalypse
* XXX
Lionsgate will release five BD titles to retail on May 23rd:
* Crash
* Lord of War
* The Punisher
* Saw
* Terminator 2: Judgment Day
[sarcasm]At least they are re-releasing the best movies[/sarcasm]
Well the Lionsgate movies were all good, but XXX?!? This was easily one of the worst movies of all time. Also, the fifth element is out on Superbit. I doubt that BD will be any better. What are they going to do, re-release it in a less compressed DVD format??? If they up the resolution they will have to up the bitrate by a good amount. I really don't see them using the full 25mbps on the video, so it is possible that the BD version will look worse than the Superbit release!!!
The other Sony releases are not worth having in High Definition. The only movie I would buy is Resident evil, but only if I did not already own it on DVD. I guess once I see it for $3 at a garage sale I can pick up a copy!! I would also not buy any of the LionsGate movies because I own all of those as well, but at least those are better than the Sony/MGM titles.
As for the copy protection, I am sure there is a way to crack the AES key in a reasonably short amount of time. However, this does not matter to me. I do not intend on owning a BD movie for a long time. The only reason I look forward to it, is that it may lower the prices of DVDR DL.
I do not agree that BD will win because of xBox 360 though. PS3 will still be pretty expensive when it comes out and Blue Ray movies seem like they will cost about 2x the price of HD-DVD. Also, MS may decide to install an HD-DVD drive on the xbox and release a new version of it. Another thing is that even though PS3s will have a blue Ray drive, this does not mean that people will go out and buy a PS3 to watch movies. They will still see the BD player for $1000 and the HD-DVD player for $400 and possibly make a decision on this. BTW, does Sony state that the PS3 will play BD movies or that it only has a BD drive?? It may require some type of special equipment or software to play BD movies. I did not read up on anything with the PS3. I will only base my buying decision on whether the system is reasonably priced and the games are good and cheap (basically they drop to $20 after about 1 month).
The only advantage I see Sony in having with Blue Ray is that Sony owns just about every movie studio out there and that they have more DRM on their format (thought the DRM is also a disadvantage). Picture quality will likely be the same on both HD-DVD and BD. I actually see BD being the one to have the worse quality of the two. Just look at every Sony movie released on DVD. They have the lowest bitrate (highest compression) by far and the worst overall picture.
The maximum allowed on either format is 25mbps total bitrate. I think HD uncompressed is 3gbps video. This means that the movies will already be compressed about 120:1 if they decide to dedicate the entire disc to Video and only 1 Dolby 5.1 audio... Sony always jams DVDs full of extras and like 7 audio streams and I assume they will do the same with the next gen. What this will do is further compress the video until you get about 15mbps or a compression of 200:1.
HD-DVD will have 30fps video which will not look as smooth, but this may factor in to the compression. I would think that if 30 frames are used then this would double the bits per frame. Basically meaning 25mbits to 30 frames vs 25mbits to 60 frames. I am not too good in this area, but it would seem that there is a trade-off between smoothness of motion and frame quality. 30fps video in this case would have 1/2 the compression of 60fps video or basically require 1/2 the bitrate to attain a similar level of quality. I could be completely wrong here, but this would sort of double the bitrate since only 1/2 the information is needed to get the same quality per frame. This would mean that 25mbps on HD-DVD would be compressed at 60:1 rather than 120:1.
I would really like to see an alternative to the two (just like I would love to see an alternative to DVD), but that is impossible since they would have to get the rights to make the movies from the movie studios. It is possible to have HD on a DVD though.. Just make a player that reads discs as data and have HD MPEG-2 files on a DVD (for a person, just hook up your PC to an HD TV set). You can fit 1 hour of good quality HD on a DVD9, so a 2 sided DVD9 can fit 2 hours of HD. If they dedicate the disc to video and one 5.1 audio stream I guarantee that the picture quality will be better than both BD or HD-DVD. For 140 minute movies, you would be able to to get a bitrate of about 15mbps (what I think BD and HD-DVD will use) and there are not too many movies over 140 minutes...
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Senior Member
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10. March 2006 @ 16:31 |
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I thought the Lord Of The Rings Trilogy would have been one of the first! Stupid me............!
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Senior Member
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10. March 2006 @ 17:16 |
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someonne will come out with a mod chip or something for these new dvdplayers, so they will play the ripped versions.read this... "Around the same time that Scott Crosby and co-authors were writing this paper, noted cryptographer Niels Ferguson independently claimed to have broken the HDCP scheme, but he chose not to publish his research due to legal concerns arising from the Digital Millennium Copyright Act [2]".
its going to be too expensive anyway to start out with, when the prices come down there will be away around all this protection.
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Senior Member
1 product review
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10. March 2006 @ 17:24 |
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hi,
About breakling the AES code, the only tru way i see that someone would actaully 'break' the code is if AACS licenses the protection to some not well known BD player maufacture in like China and they rat AACS and realeases teh codes, whcih will then be all the codes to unlock all past BD movies.- Surly new ones will come with new codes.
I'd say our consummer fiar use rights rests on breaking of these Codes.
BTW: what is superbit?
peace,
j
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Senior Member
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10. March 2006 @ 18:45 |
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what i would like to see happen is someone come out with an affordable dvd rom for bd and hd for the pc. then come out with the software to rip with and then use the average burner to burn to a DVD9, and use dvdrebuilder and CCE to encode. i would play them on a upconvert dvd player with a dvi cable. this would be affordable. by the way here is some of the bit rates i could find... Profile Level Maximum Bit Rate Resolutions by framerate
Simple Low 96 kbit/s 176 x 144 / 15 (QCIF)
Medium 384 kbit/s 240 x 176 / 30
352 x 288 / 15 (CIF)
Main Low 2 Mbit/s 320 x 240 / 24 (QVGA)
Medium 10 Mbit/s 720 x 480 / 30 (480p)
720 x 576 / 25 (576p)
High 20 Mbit/s 1920 x 1080 / 30 (1080p)
Advanced L0 2 Mbit/s 352 x 288 / 30 (CIF)
L1 10 Mbit/s 720 x 480 / 30 (NTSC-SD)
720 x 576 / 25 (PAL-SD)
L2 20 Mbit/s 720 x 480 / 60 (480p)
1280 x 720 / 30 (720p)
L3 45 Mbit/s 1920 x 1080 / 24 (1080p)
1920 x 1080 / 30 (1080i)
1280 x 720 / 60 (720p)
L4 135 Mbit/s 1920 x 1080 / 60 (1080p)
2048 x 1536 / 24
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Senior Member
1 product review
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11. March 2006 @ 17:18 |
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hi,
that would be a very good option as DL are geting cheaper by teh minute.
j
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