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Another new build advice thread
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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8. April 2008 @ 20:38 |
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the 650 or the 620??? buy.com has both. but im worried about that 650 cable length... i havent ordered yet. im hopeing to before the sale is over..kinda hard right now with the wife jobless....waiting to see if/when my state refund comes in
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AfterDawn Addict
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8. April 2008 @ 20:43 |
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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8. April 2008 @ 21:36 |
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dang the shipping is as much as the parts..lol
i think microcenter would have something like that
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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9. April 2008 @ 04:33 |
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They're quite interesting, I never even realised you could buy those.
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PacMan777
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9. April 2008 @ 07:20 |
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Cincy
I got here late this evening. I'm with Greensman on the RAM. Normally 2GB is plenty, unless you're using Vista or plan on moving up to it later. CAD programs and the like demand more as mentioned. You've already heard that though, except for newer OS demands (didn't see that mentioned). I was just adding agreement for whatever it's worth. Pull up a usage utility, Task Manager or one of the OC tools, and see what your current level of RAM usage is and do some projections on your future use. Will you be multitasking more, running more programs while surfing and the like? If you're like me, if the PC will allow it, you'll want to give it a try. I'm running encoding software, leaving multiple tabs open while browsing, and sending emails, all at the same time. Start off with the 2 GB and if you need more it's no big deal to add on. I use 1GB cards as they usually leave slots open for expansion. On older hyperthreading CPUs it was necessary to keep the RAM matched, 2 slots, 4 slots ... Not a big deal with newer CPUs that don't support the technology. Still I like to keep the RAM matched.
Do you need better quality RAM? That depends on whether the mobo/CPU combo can utilize it. Lower timings give better performance results, usually more noticable when OCing a system. It usually costs a bit more, but worth it if the application warrants it. Corsair and OCZ are a couple of favorites, but not the only game in town.
Originally posted by LOCOENG:
Quote:
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Since I was told not to post as prolifically as in the past,
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It also appears you have a problem letting things go, what I was trying to do in the past was to try and get you to stop being an "I always have to have the last word" ass. Apparently it didn't work. You are free to post as much as you want, all I want is for every other thread you are involved in to turn into a "my way or the highway".
You started it with the PSU issue on the first few pages of this thread (which I ignored) and now we've moved on to mobo's. Please feel free to express your opinions, but please start a new thread to debate the finer points of ASUS mobo's please. I don't own one and don't intend to in the near future.
Thank you, but is calling me an "ass" on the public forum appropriate? I was trying to be helpful by adding input on hardware used in successful builds by my friends and me. I have other activities to keep me occupied. So, if I'm of no help here, I'll move on. I don't mind not being on the forum as much as in the past. Also, in the past I didn't mind moving over and letting others do the posting. Which I did and will continue to do so. I wasn't holding on to anything to let go of. There's a real world out here. LOL Believe it or not, I was rooting for a good outcome with your initial build.
As for my way or the highway, I don't see it. I'm not the one coming off hot under the collar here or crying foul and saying people are attacking my intelligence. I didn't say you were being asinine or anything about Sam's intelligence. He brought that up and acted upset. If not upset, why mention it? I realize several companies make good PSUs besides Corsair, and there's more than ASUS and Gigabyte that make good boards (or bad boards whatever the case may be). I'm not saying anyone has to follow my lead. I was just pointing out what has worked excellent for me and some of my friends. Seems there's others here now talking about the same PSUs I was earlier and if I remember correctly, even you agreed on that item.
I'm not the only one that disagrees with Sam and Russ's take on mobos, but that's from my experience. I can see where he might not be happy with what he bought. That's his preference. I suspect Sam and Russ have stated many more times that ASUS boards are the bain of the hobby than my saying they're good. It's most often in response to their complaints. People aren't going to take my word for components anyway. Like yourself, most people smart enough to build a PC and get it working will do the research and then buy what's best and fits their budget. The forum is here to supply suggestions, not coerce a person into doing something against their will. As Russ or somebody has a habit of sayin. Happy 'putin.
Before I depart, a question for Sammorris:
How many PCs have you built that have worked the way they were supposed to and didn't meet an untimely demise? I mean order all the parts and then put all of them together on your own and then set up the drives, OS, and get the system completely functional. I'm not trying to act the know it all either by asking. I want to know where you gained the experience you bring to the forum to make "experienced" comments on PC hardware and building. As I mentioned, I'm a novice to building like some of the others here. However, I'm very lucky to have a decent track record on what I've built. Also, I have friends in the real world I can call if need be, not just factory techs or forum info (though forums can be a good source of info). It's nice to have resources.
Greensman
On the Tootsie Roll Pop, one good bite. Not enough patience to slurp on one of those all day. ;)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 9. April 2008 @ 08:24
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Member
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9. April 2008 @ 07:34 |
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Originally posted by sammorris:
They're quite interesting, I never even realised you could buy those.
Sam - I know both ebuyer and scan do the 24pin extender - ebuyers is about £13 and scans is about £6 and Scans looks a lot better.
Rob - I know the HX520 power cables are long enough for the RC690 with the GA-P35 board as thats what i have. The 24 pin even goes behind the motherboard mount and round the back.
GA-P35C-DS3R Rev 2.0 F6 - E8200 @ 3.2Ghz - 2x1GB Corsair XMS2 800Mhz@4-4-4-12 - Sapphire 2600XT 512mb GDDR3 - CM690 Dominator - Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro - 250GB Maxtor and 500GB WD internal SATA HDD - 500GB Seagate eSATA and 500GB Maxtor One Touch III USB External HDD - 2 x Pioneer DVR-215DBK - Windows XP SP2 - Logitech X-540 5.1 70W RMS Speakers - Polaroid FLU-2632 Monitor
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PacMan777
AfterDawn Addict
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9. April 2008 @ 07:59 |
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Cincy
With the PSUs I've used, I've not seen a lot of difference in the length of the different cables. Modular makes for a neater application. One of the reasons I go with that type. Usually the neater the cable routing, the better the air flow. I've got an oversized case and everything on the Corsair easily reaches. For that matter so would OCZ or Antec (and others that aren't modular). By the way, the Egg has a good supply of wiring extensions and adapter cables.
Here's the link for the 24 pin extension if you happen to need it.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200121
Egg also has a bunch of adapters that come in handy sometimes. For harnesses with loose wires, I've found the spiral cable wrap sold at Advance does a neat job.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 9. April 2008 @ 08:11
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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9. April 2008 @ 08:17 |
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13 quid for any power cable is a joke, £6 is more realistic but even so, they look like the sort of thing you'd expect to pay £3.99 for in PC world. All I can add to the PSU cable length debate is that in an Antec 900 (PSU at bottom) the HX 520's CPU connector reaches, just.
As for the now frankly ridiculous motherboard debate, I'll repeat my point yet again as you still don't seem to have grasped it. High end Asus boards = very good. Cheaper Asus boards = not so good. Very cheap Asus boards = surprisingly good. It's the ones in the middle that seem to cause problems, the £50-£70 area, which isn't where many people shop for motherboards. Your P5N32 comes in the better high end category, as do the Strikers, Rampage and Maximus. Remember what your board is underneath. The P5N-E SLI is built from the outset to be what it is, and it's crap, even the Asus fans acknowledge that. Gigabyte aren't perfect either, but right now they're doing better than Asus, IN THAT BUDGET SECTOR.
Criticising a moderator on his comment though is just downright ignorant.
How many PCs have I built that haven't fallen to pieces? I haven't built many PCs so I'm not really fair game for this attack of ego-building, but my first build failed due to a cheap PSU (it's since been resurrected and is now in working order again), the second PC's motherboard failed without me touching it, I didn't even build it originally, but it was assembled properly, I studied it closely. The only major fault it ever had with it afterwards was the second Asus board going bad. Since going gigabyte my PC's been doing fine. My server is only currently down because I changed my network settings and forgot how to change them back, I'm still learning with its Linux OS. I built a PC for my cousin a while back using a very cheap Gigabyte mobo, the P31-DS3L and that's still gaming fine.
Now as far as I can see, there isn't anything to build a rebuttal on for this post, so if you can it, I will.
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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9. April 2008 @ 08:41 |
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for $96.99 shipped to me im gonna have to go with the TX650. gonna order it today from buy.com
650w
now wait for a rebate. or anything else..
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AfterDawn Addict
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9. April 2008 @ 08:57 |
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rob reconsider the TX650 at the EGG.... link to post in PC thread. ;)
I just checked and it's OUT OF STOCK. lol. With the promo code it's about the same price and after MIR it's $74.99. :D
.....gm
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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9. April 2008 @ 09:01 |
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This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 9. April 2008 @ 09:01
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PacMan777
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9. April 2008 @ 09:05 |
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Originally posted by sammorris:
...
As for the now frankly ridiculous motherboard debate, I'll repeat my point yet again as you still don't seem to have grasped it. High end Asus boards = very good. Cheaper Asus boards = not so good. Very cheap Asus boards = surprisingly good. It's the ones in the middle that seem to cause problems, the £50-£70 area, which isn't where many people shop for motherboards. Your P5N32 comes in the better high end category, as do the Strikers, Rampage and Maximus. Remember what your board is underneath. The P5N-E SLI is built from the outset to be what it is, and it's crap, even the Asus fans acknowledge that. Gigabyte aren't perfect either, but right now they're doing better than Asus, IN THAT BUDGET SECTOR.
Criticising a moderator on his comment though is just downright ignorant.
How many PCs have I built that haven't fallen to pieces? I haven't built many PCs so I'm not really fair game for this attack of ego-building, but my first build failed due to a cheap PSU (it's since been resurrected and is now in working order again), the second PC's motherboard failed without me touching it, I didn't even build it originally, but it was assembled properly, I studied it closely. The only major fault it ever had with it afterwards was the second Asus board going bad. Since going gigabyte my PC's been doing fine. My server is only currently down because I changed my network settings and forgot how to change them back, I'm still learning with its Linux OS. I built a PC for my cousin a while back using a very cheap Gigabyte mobo, the P31-DS3L and that's still gaming fine.
Now as far as I can see, there isn't anything to build a rebuttal on for this post, so if you can it, I will.
I agree, the discussion on mobos did turn out to be ridiculous. Frankly though, I don't remember criticizing LOCO. I just asked the appropriateness of calling someone an "ass" on a public forum. The same as your saying I'm ignorant. Possibly foolhardy on my part, but not ignorance. Seems what I was accused of has shown up elsewhere. But since you do it in honor of a mod, I'd say it'll probably be okay.
On the matter of ego building, I don't see where that comes in. I didn't see where anyone including myself was trying to flatter their ego. I was the first to admit I'm a novice builder and basically going on what little I've experienced and that of some friends. Seems more of the novice builders here agree with ASUS being good, when using them in the right applications. You were the one to bring a technical discussion down to a personal level.
I see you came to agree about PSUs. We'll just have to learn to agree to disagree in a mannerly fashion on ASUS boards. Besides enthusiast boards, they've manufactured factory boards and you don't get much cheaper than those. I've not seen the links for all those bad boards yet. That's why I asked about your build experience, I wanted to know where you're getting your info when you say "from my experience" and start discussing faulty hardware. It didn't have anything to do with your intelligence, just experience and credibility (which more than one of us is lacking, LOL). In the future I'll just ask for the links so I can look the info and source over. If I start stating things that don't sound right, feel free to ask my sources.
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PacMan777
AfterDawn Addict
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9. April 2008 @ 09:11 |
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Cincy
Did you run your setup through the Configurator at buy.com? That gives the fit; and the 650 has the longer cables so they'll work in the large tower applications. You should be good to go. Check out that Configurator for peace of mind. ;)
Buy.com is about the best price I've seen in the US. PC Connection is about the same, if you don't mind waiting for a rebate. Did you notice the $10 off for using Google checkout at Buy.com?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 9. April 2008 @ 09:22
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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9. April 2008 @ 09:23 |
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Well, here's an example figure. Newegg reviews have to be taken with a pinch of salt since a lot of them are down to people being idiots, but only 70% of all the 834 reviews are 4 or 5 stars. That means that a whopping 250 people have rated the board as having serious enough issues to mark it down significantly.
Sort by reviews, it's pretty yuck there.
Okay, so what if the P5N-E was just a bad egg?
The P5K SE, 10/30 below 4 stars.
The P5K, 28/103 below 4 stars.
The P5K-E however, gradually working our way into the high end zone, only 12/94 below 4 stars.
With the P5Ks, we're seeing the trend of cheap=bad and expensive=good.
The GA-P35-DS3L however, a nice and cheap board, only 107/983 below 4 stars. 30% unsatisfied with Asus' cheap stuff, 10% with gigabyte.
In fact the P35-DS3L is the highest rated Intel motherboard on newegg.
In that top chart, Gigabyte have 6 out of the 20 boards!
Intel have 3, DFI 3, Asus, only two - and look what they are - the P5K64WS, a top end board, and the P5N-MX, an ubercheap workstation board.
Gigabyte on the other hand, a G31 MicroATX, a G33 MicroATX and three P35 normal ATX boards (one of them only 80 dollars).
Let's have a look at the worst rated board on newegg, it's an Asus! the P5B-VM with a whopping 46% unsatisfied.
Newegg isn't the font of all knowledge, but it's real product use not engineering samples (and remember the p5N-E only seemed to go bad a month or so after it was released), and given the vast number of people who use it, it's the best statistical test I can come up with. Accurate or not, the figures speak for themselves. If you buy an expensive board, sure, make it an Asus, but if you haven't got lots to spend, stay away.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 9. April 2008 @ 09:25
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PacMan777
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9. April 2008 @ 09:30 |
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"Pinch of salt" with using Egg reviews is right. A big pinch. I've had good results with most of my parts from EGG, but I RMA(ed) a PSU. I've not done reviews good or bad. I knew it was simply a faulty item and I took my new replacement and went on. The replacement is a good PSU. The reason I mention it is I suspect a lot of customers don't do those reviews. Without a good majority of the customers filling out reviews on all items, the reviews become questionable. Now I probably wouldn't buy anything where everybody said it was junk. I'd rather read the articles on hardware in PC World, Tomshardware, and similar sites and trades.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 9. April 2008 @ 09:36
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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9. April 2008 @ 09:37 |
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but that's the thing, those reviews will only study what a product is like from the outset, not what it's like to live with. My A8N board seemed the best thing since sliced bread when I first had it, a few months later, that illusion dissolved.
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PacMan777
AfterDawn Addict
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9. April 2008 @ 09:56 |
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Sam
I noticed the P5NE is considered by some to be a midrange board. Also the E was replaced by the P5ND which has the revised chipset for use with the 45 nm architecture. From a review done by Tomshardware last May I wouldn't use one of those boards except for a budget build. I know what I'm going to do and the board doesn't have the quality features I want.
http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/05/24/s...ared/page4.html
Now that's what I call a reliable link. They give you the info to help make up your mind besides giving their impression.
(Bad typing)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 9. April 2008 @ 09:57
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PacMan777
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9. April 2008 @ 10:08 |
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Sam
I'm glad you pointed out another of the "pinches" with the Egg reviews; first impressions.
The nVidia chipsets used in the A8N line have a reputation for good service. I regret you had problems with your board. I would have suggested a slightly more upscale board for an enthusiast using their system a lot (sometimes 24/7). Even the A8N32 is considered a midrange board (in comparison to highend gamers). You often get what you pay for, as in the case of that cheap PSU that burned down your PC. That's why I won't hedge on core components.
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Moderator
1 product review
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9. April 2008 @ 10:23 |
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Quote:
Thank you, but is calling me an "ass" on the public forum appropriate?
Probably not, but it got your attention didn't it.
The difference between you and Sam calling each other down in this thread is the fact that you are both established members of the site, whereas when I PM'd you a while back (instead of airing our dirty laundry on the open forum for all to see) was you were doing it to new potential members. Surely you can see the difference.
I did go with the Corair PSU in the end and the debate wasn't the problem it was the non-stop nagging at anyone who would give an opinion that differed from yours. Everyone has an opinion, give it once it'll be heard and move on. Now you are going on and on asking for links, data and backup for the statements Sam (and Russ, who AFAIK hasn't even posted in this thread) has made. I don't see where you have the right to demand that information, if you feel you infact to then take it to a PM.
As far as me giving Sammy gold stars for "standing up for my honor", I don't need anyone to stand up for me. I've read through his other posts and I don't see anything off hand as it's usually intelligent, level-headed responses from someone who is willing to take the time to answer the posts most others don't/won't. I've not asked you to stop posting but rather stop with the attitude, you know this, but seem to keep sidestepping the issue accusing me of putting a damper on your posting and reading of the forum.
I really was going to let this go, but as it happens I did get a PM with a concern about your and Sam's debate yesterday which prompted my post. You see I'm not the only who has a problem with the attitude. Stay or not as I said earlier the choice is yours.
Quote:
Believe it or not, I was rooting for a good outcome with your initial build.
Believe it or not, I hope you decide to stick around as I feel the more knowledgeable people the better. I would never wish ill will upon anyone...I'm a firm believer in the philosophy of keeping your friends close and your enemy's closer.
Have a nice day all....carry on.
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Moderator
1 product review
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9. April 2008 @ 10:26 |
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On an aside...while I usually read the most current user reviews on the Egg of a product I'm looking at I don't lend them much credence. I think it's a flawed system TBH. Someone who may be a bit humble states their experience as low, but may be quite high, gives the board a great review and then someone who hasn't a clue states their experience as high gives a crap review and isn't qualified to put together a snap-tight model.
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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9. April 2008 @ 10:47 |
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I too know that a lot of the reviewers on newegg are somewhat lacking in the tech common sense department, but while I trust Tom's Hardware more than most, they're too high profile to ignore the prospect of them being sent engineering samples rather thah normal genuine versions of the product. Their review of the P5N-E SLI for instance is flattering as it's one of the early versions before Asus made whatever change it was that turned them into oversized paperweights.
The nForce 4 Ultra has been a success story for everyone I know that's owned one. The nForce 4 SLI less so, and indeed when both my Asus boards failed I was in fact pointing the blame more at nvidia than Asus, but after noticing the quirks with my Xpress 200 chipset Asus board and hearing some mutter about issues with other boards, and I went out to have a look. In the top-end sector, Asus have a better QC for their higher boards than Gigabyte, this much is clear. If I was going all out to get a top-end board Asus is who I'd recommend over Gigabyte, drop down below £80 though, and the situation is reversed.
I've been criticised heavily in the past for taking my point of view to extremes and recognise that I have still improvements to make in that department, but to be honest, there's nothing even being argued about here any more.
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PacMan777
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9. April 2008 @ 11:24 |
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LOCO
Glad you pointed out the Egg review idiot factor. I'd be called condescending if I did it. LOL
You're right about the situation. Play in dirt and you get dirty.
I like reviews from PC World, Tomshardware, and Anandtech (and a few others I read less frequently). The Gigabyte DS3 and ASUS P5 (were considered comparable)
http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2860
The older A8N was for AMD 939 and has nothing to do with C2D; well before its time. PC World ran tests on 10 boards for a review back when the 939 AMD was king. The A8N was a top board.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,119984-page,1/article.html
Doing a Google, I noticed the DS3 is getting a large number of complaints about different problems. Just punch in DS3 problems for an interesting read.
http://www.google.com/search?q=DS3+probl...ex=&startPage=1
Originally posted by Sammorris:
I've been criticised heavily in the past for taking my point of view to extremes and recognise that I have still improvements to make in that department, but to be honest, there's nothing even being argued about here any more.
LOL You stole my line.
I'll usually go with the majority of professional reviews on board and other hardware selection; and if a friend has had good luck with it that adds to the good rep. If my friend says bad, I usually ask why? I try not to take any one opinion, though I weight some over others.
You're right on nothing being argued about. Just a difference of personal opinions. I'll still tend to ask for supporting info anytime anyone starts stating products are bad. Plus I can often readily supply a basis for my opinions over a personal take.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 9. April 2008 @ 11:39
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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9. April 2008 @ 11:33 |
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They are known to have problems with certain types of memory, and had a storage controller bug if I recall. I also, however, recall the P5N-E having an issue where getting the system to even POST with all four memory slots in use was nearly impossible, let alone actually running the PC stable. No board is free from problems, there have even been some with the Maximus Formula. Look up any board with the word problems after and you get the same result, unsurprisingly. Also, note that most of those issues from that google are for the older 965P-DS3, not the P35s I recommend.
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PacMan777
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9. April 2008 @ 11:48 |
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Glad you pointed out most boards have their foibles. Better companies address those with improvements. As far as further discussion, I doubt it will do any good since most see this as a hostile environment. LOCO has been getting PMs. ;) ASUS and Gigabyte, both good and interested in improving and supporting the product. Nuff said.
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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9. April 2008 @ 13:12 |
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Originally posted by PacMan777:
Cincy
Did you run your setup through the Configurator at buy.com? That gives the fit; and the 650 has the longer cables so they'll work in the large tower applications. You should be good to go. Check out that Configurator for peace of mind. ;)
Buy.com is about the best price I've seen in the US. PC Connection is about the same, if you don't mind waiting for a rebate. Did you notice the $10 off for using Google checkout at Buy.com?
the configurator is for checking mem capatiblity.. im not worried about my mem it is fine.. wish ti showed other parts as well
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