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Intel vs. AMD
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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18. April 2007 @ 01:00 |
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Sorry, never played with it, I can only suggest to leave it at default.
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18. April 2007 @ 05:09 |
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Hey Sam,
Quote:
A decent cooler for overclocking? Go with something simple and big like the Zalman CNPS9700, Scythe Ninja or Thermalright. Arctic Silver V is obviously a must.
Couldn't help but notice, what's that CPU cooler in your sig? Freezer what? ROFL!! Or is the Freezer 7 Pro only good for a 66% OC? LOL!!!
I was talking to Colin, the manager at Arctic Silver the other day, and strange as it seems he doesn't recomend Arctic silver 5 for CPU coolers! He recomends Arctic Silver Ceramique because the Arctic Silver 5 is electricly conductive and the Ceramique isn't! Seems if you go overboard in applying the AS5, it can burn things out on the motherboard! Honest, I swear to God that's what he said! He recomends the AS5 for chipset coolers! Imagine that!
Happy Computering,
theone
GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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18. April 2007 @ 05:16 |
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One of my PCs has Arctic silver on the chip cooler, what's so unusual about that?
I didn't list the Arctic as the best cooler because although it's very good, for the absolute best performance, the bigger coolers fare slightly better.
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18. April 2007 @ 05:30 |
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sammorris,
Quote:
One of my PCs has Arctic silver on the chip cooler, what's so unusual about that?
Nothing! I use it for that as well, but it does seem strange that he doesn't recomend it for CPU coolers. I mean just about everyone here uses it for that purpose. I always thought that's what it was made for to begin with, that's all.
Russ
GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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18. April 2007 @ 05:32 |
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yeah, I doubt such a popular TIM would be electrically conductive, granted thermal & electrical conductivity often go hand in hand, but if that were the case, then it would be so easy to disturb the CPU with static, surely?
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PacMan777
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18. April 2007 @ 05:46 |
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They should merely put a warning on the AS not to use too much or fry some circuits. I've been using it for a long time and haven't found better. It used to beat the heck out of the thermal compound that came with most coolers. The only thing I'll use besides the Silver is the newer compound the comes with the Zalmans.
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18. April 2007 @ 05:53 |
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Sam,
Quote:
yeah, I doubt such a popular TIM would be electrically conductive, granted thermal & electrical conductivity often go hand in hand, but if that were the case, then it would be so easy to disturb the CPU with static, surely?
It absolutely floored me when he said that, but he says that if too much is applied it can short things out and fry a motherboard. Apparently they get a lot of complaints about just that!
And yes, static electricity can destroy any microprocessor in a heartbeat, which is why it's best to wear an anti-static strap when handling anything inside the computer. We had quite a number of problems with static electricity when Dental chairs and x-rays switched from mechanical to microprocessor controls. Most offices at that time had all that nice looking nylon carpeting, so lots of static electricity. It got so bad for a while that most techs didn't want to work on them which was rediculous. The Siemens reps would request me all the time because I wasn't afraid of them because I knew that all you had to do was wear the anti static strap. My company territory was S. Texas at the time and they had me flying all over the US and Canada to do jobs that any competent tech should have been able to handle! Siemens even supplied the straps for free and the dumbos still wouldn't wear them!
Russ
GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
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4 product reviews
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18. April 2007 @ 05:57 |
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LOL have to confess I don't use an anti-static strap, but then again where would I attach it? Unless they do one that's several metres, it wouldn't reach the unpainted section of the radiator (I here that's the only decent place), I hardly think a case when the PSU isn't attached to the mains is sufficient.
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PacMan777
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18. April 2007 @ 06:00 |
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There's such a thing as personal responsibility, even with building PCs. It's hard to apply an idiot test for selling products to home builders. But I don't think it's good business saying not to use a good product because some inept builders can't follow instructions.
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PacMan777
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18. April 2007 @ 06:03 |
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Originally posted by sammorris:
LOL have to confess I don't use an anti-static strap, but then again where would I attach it? Unless they do one that's several metres, it wouldn't reach the unpainted section of the radiator (I here that's the only decent place), I hardly think a case when the PSU isn't attached to the mains is sufficient.
It is. Put on the strap and connect to the case. You're not supposed to be working in the case with the PSU hooked to the power. So what good would the strap be if not hooked to the case with the power off. Plus you should be using an anti static mat for the work surbace.
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18. April 2007 @ 06:13 |
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Sam,
Quote:
I hardly think a case when the PSU isn't attached to the mains is sufficient.
All the ones I've seen have an alligator clip on the end, and you do clip it to the case. It has nothing to do with the mains ground at all. It's an isolation thing where any static electricity is dissipated into the case rather than discharging into a component. The ground for the MB to the case is through the MB screws! When wearing the wrist strap there is no static electricity at all as there's no build up to begin with!
Russ
GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. April 2007 @ 07:44
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18. April 2007 @ 06:33 |
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PacMan777,
Quote:
There's such a thing as personal responsibility, even with building PCs. It's hard to apply an idiot test for selling products to home builders. But I don't think it's good business saying not to use a good product because some inept builders can't follow instructions.
I agree with you 100%! That's why I was so surprised when this information came from the manager of Arctic Silver, Colin! At first I thought I misunderstood him, but his exact words were: "actually I don't recommend using Arctic Silver 5 for CPU coolers" and went on to explain about people calling up and complaining that the AS5 had damaged their MB. Nice that they blame Arctic Silver instead of their "idiot self" for not using the product properly.
I did some extensive testing between the AS5 and the Ceramique about 6-7 months ago on a P-4 Prescot and my D-940 using a Zalman 9500, the Arctic Freezer Pro and a Freezer 4 and the AS5 worked better, but by a very small margin. True, it was an awful lot of work but I wanted the answers and I had the time. I've been using it ever since as it's easy to use and you can't hurt anything if you use too much. Colin told me to ignore all the tips on applying it that you find on the net and to just put a gob of it on the center of the CPU and mount the cooler. He also said not to apply any to the cooler itself.
Best Regards,
Russ
GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. April 2007 @ 07:40
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Senior Member
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18. April 2007 @ 06:33 |
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Quote:
..He recomends Arctic Silver Ceramique because the Arctic Silver 5 is electricly conductive and the Ceramique isn't!...He recomends the AS5 for chipset coolers!...
i would of imagined it being the other way around. as the cpu is more isolated and the chipsets are not.
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18. April 2007 @ 06:45 |
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marsey99,
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i would of imagined it being the other way around. as the cpu is more isolated and the chipsets are not.
Apparently not as I just looked at the chipset on a spare MB I have and there are no connections showing around the chipset chips, they are all below the board section of the chip. I guess it would depend on how much you use. I've been using Arctic Silver for years and have never had a problem. Then again I don't apply it like toothpaste either. I do it in the accepted manner. I also see that some CPU sockets have all sorts of connections surrounding it so I guess if you are an idiot and go way overboard, you can hurt something! You know the mentality. If a little is good, then a lot is better! LOL!
Best Regards,
Russ
GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
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Senior Member
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18. April 2007 @ 07:21 |
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Quote:
If a little is good, then a lot is better! LOL!
yep that is a common thought process.
i guess the advice you were given is more of a way to make the aplication as uncomplicated (read idiot proof, not aimed at you dont get me wrong) as possible.
on mine it has them on the top around the nb chip itself. not a good picture (blame my phone) but you can just about see them.
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PacMan777
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18. April 2007 @ 09:23 |
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Theonejrs
How do you explain your findings in relation to the specifications Arctic Silver posts for the products?
Quote:
Arctic Silver Ceramique Thermal Compound
Thermal Conductance: >200,000W/m2.°C (0.001 inch layer)
Thermal Resistance: <0.007°C-in2/Watt (0.001 inch layer)
Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Compound
Thermal Conductance: >350,000W/m2 °C (0.001 inch layer)
Thermal Resistance: <0.0045°C-in2/Watt (0.001 inch layer)
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AfterDawn Addict
4 product reviews
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18. April 2007 @ 09:25 |
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They're odd, but specs are specs, we all know real experience often differs. Such as Thermaltake's range of fans that all happen to produce the same noise level, 21dB. Oh wait, mine's 36, how did that happen?
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PacMan777
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18. April 2007 @ 09:31 |
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The only problem is that most people who have used both products notice similarities between the specs and the performance of the products. Theonejrs' findings are opposed to what everyone else is getting. The ceramique is safer, but it's not the better conductor.
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18. April 2007 @ 09:32 |
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PacMan777,
Quote:
How do you explain your findings in relation to the specifications Arctic Silver posts for the products?
Very simple! The particle size is smaller so there's more particles for a given area, more tightly packed in the same amount of space. While the heat transfer of the particles is lower, the higher density because of the smaller particles transfers almost as much heat as the AS5.
That's what Arctic Silver used to say on their site!
Best Regards,
Russ
GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
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PacMan777
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18. April 2007 @ 09:58 |
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Yes, but you're dealing with a greater conduction factor of over 30%. It just doesn't seem to work out for most people the way you claim. If ceramique was that good, why aren't most of the performance builders using it instead of the Arctic Silver 5?
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. April 2007 @ 09:58
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18. April 2007 @ 12:07 |
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PacMan777,
Quote:
Yes, but you're dealing with a greater conduction factor of over 30%. It just doesn't seem to work out for most people the way you claim. If ceramique was that good, why aren't most of the performance builders using it instead of the Arctic Silver 5?
I learned from experience that the directions that most people use that they get on the internet are wrong. Some show the use of a plastic bag to spread it around around on both the heat sink and CPU are wrong as it creates air pockets. By experimenting, I discovered that I do it the same way Colin told me to. Just put a big gob of it on the CPU, apply AS5 to the heat sink and wipe it all off with a paper towel and stick it down. Wipe off the excess Ceramique that will squish out between the heat sink and the CPU and you're done The AS5 on the heat sink is to fill in all the tiny imperfections in the surface. Colin called it "dressing the heat sink"! Just doing that alone lowers the temps a couple of degrees. Using a good sized gob of the Ceramique insures that there are no air pockets whatsoever. In this case, more is better! A bit messy and sticky, but it works! Arctic's findings agree with mine as well, according to Colin. He says that the difference is about 2C if done this way!
My computer has been on over 6 hours and is idling at 30-31C with a MB temp of 32-33C in a 25C room. I'm OC'd to 3.71GHz with an Arctic Freezer 7 Pro. It will hit about 42C while encoding with RB/CCE. Running OCCT for 12 hours will get it up to 48C. AS5 would probably drop that about 2C after it had a while to cure. As I pointed out when I did the testing, a lot depends on the airflow of the case. I'm sure that the fan that I added to the side cover also helps keep the temps lower too. It runs very cool for a Presler overclocked 500MHz!
Best Regards
Russ
GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
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PacMan777
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18. April 2007 @ 12:29 |
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Quote:
He says that the difference is about 2C if done this way!
From the same guy who says AS5 isn't for CPUs. Is that before or after a few hundred hours of curing? The conduction is over 1/3 better for the AS5, irregardless of "molecular fitting" of the ceramique. The figures are from the measurements of a given area of the material. Naturally Arctic Silver is going to say how a product is good. They promote the AS5 as well as the ceramique. As I said before, my findings are more in line with what the specs indicate for the 2 products. Has anyone else around here had similar findings to yours? You have a habit of coming up with theories and findings that go against physics and technical reviews of hardware as supplied by sites such as Tomshardware, Anandtech and PC World just to name a few, not to mention some of the more respected builders here at AD. Then you tenaciously defend those findings with no support other than what someone said.
To do the tests right you would have to have identical test boards running under identical conditions with the only difference being the thermal compound. Then you would have a fair chance of getting decent test comparisons. You're trying to sound scientific without even following sound test procedures.
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Senior Member
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18. April 2007 @ 12:52 |
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Originally posted by baltekmi:
what is the pci latency timer? and what should it be set on?
default 64.
i had some issues with my last mobo and my x-fi card, i found that setting it to 128 fixxed the issues i was having with it.
edit
silver and ceramique sux. artic mx-1 ftw lol
edit 2
pacman i think he used the same mobo, same cpu and same cooler so the only variable was the paste as im sure his ac kept the room temp the same.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. April 2007 @ 12:59
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PacMan777
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18. April 2007 @ 13:18 |
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Quote:
[quote=baltekmi]
... pacman i think he used the same mobo, same cpu and same cooler so the only variable was the paste as im sure his ac kept the room temp the same.
That's not the way it works and I believe theonejrs will agree on that. To do the tests right requires identical boards running at the same time under the same conditions for an extended period of time. We're talking at least a few hundred hours for the curing process. In the end we're only talking a few degrees and ambient temperatures could effect readings drastically when done at different times without controls. About the safest thing to say about the stuff under such loose conditions is that there doesn't appear to be too much difference between the 2.
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18. April 2007 @ 13:53 |
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PacMan,
baltekmi is right I did all the testing on 2 motherboards. 1 set of tests for the P5P800SE and 1 set for the P4P800SE with both the Freezer 7 pro on the P5P and the 9500 and the Freezer 4 on the P4P. I'm not saying that the science is 100% exact as I just didn't have the resources to have 2 of each motherboard and set-up. This was in no way a scientific test and wasn't claimed to be. I was able to control the ambient temp and the cases used were identical on both machines. All this time and testing was strictly for my own personal satisfaction and was posted on DVD Hounds, on a "this is what I got with these particular set-ups" basis. I wasn't making any claims, but just reporting the results I got in these tests. If I was doing extreme overclocking to the max, I would absolutely use the AS5. For all of the applications I've used the Ceramique for, the results have been very good and I do recommend it!
Funny thing, Colin from Arctic Silver just called me a few minutes ago and he agrees that there is a couple of degrees difference between the AS5 and the Ceramique if applied properly and if you are not overclocking to the max. I figure he should know, perhaps better than anyone as he manages the company and should know what he is talking about. He is sending me 2 tubes of AS5 as a gift for my time and feedback. I will be using the Ceramique applied as described in my previous post on my E4300/P5N-E build within the next 2 weeks and I'm sure that at my target speed of 3.0, the results will be as Good as Gina's if not better as her's had a stock Intel cooler while mine will have an Arctic Freezer Pro! I have no desire or need to go faster with it. A 66.67% speed improvement is more than enough for me and my needs and I don't like to stress everything out to the max anyway.
Quote:
From the same guy who says AS5 isn't for CPUs.
No! Colin said that he "doesn't recommend it for CPU coolers"!
Sincerely,
Russ
GigaByte 990FXA-UD5 - AMD FX-8320 @4.0GHz @1.312v - Corsair H-60 liquid CPU Cooler - 4x4 GB GSkill RipJaws DDR3/1866 Cas8, 8-9-9-24 - Corsair 400-R Case - OCZ FATAL1TY 550 watt Modular PSU - Intel 330 120GB SATA III SSD - WD Black 500GB SATA III - WD black 1 TB Sata III - WD Black 500GB SATA II - 2 Asus DRW-24B1ST DVD-Burner - Sony 420W 5.1 PL-II Suround Sound - GigaByte GTX550/1GB 970 Mhz Video - Asus VE247H 23.6" HDMI 1080p Monitor
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. April 2007 @ 14:08
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