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Request for all regular users of our forums
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I hate titles
35 product reviews
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14. April 2005 @ 12:58 |
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Howdy,
This is specifically directed to our regular, often long-time members. I've read our forums more throughly during the last few weeks than I have done in ages and noticed one interesting new phenomenom -- "vigilantism". What I mean by this is that when a newbie makes a mistake, violates our forum rules, etc, that thread gets about gazillion posts typically with rather sarcastic and sometimes even offensive (yes, in instance when there's blatant spam attempts, etc sarcasm and even few nicely selected words are appropriate, IMO, but not in case when a n00b asks a question without understanding our rules about piracy, etc) tone.
Now, you ask me "so what?". In my opinion, this creates an unnecessarily hostile environment that by itself can turn potential future "aD addicts" away from our forums. This is unfortunate, since we have extremely capable moderators and most notably, all Members, and people with higher rank than that, can use the Report an offensive post feature in order to inform our moderators about a potential problem. After that is done, it is solely up to moderators to handle it in a way they feel is suitable for our forums.
Now, don't take me wrong, I do appreciate everybody's efforts to keep the forums clean, but I'd love to see the old "good spirit" that used to be part of our forums back in 2002 or so, to come back. And in my opinion, best way to do this, is to leave the "police authority" to our mods and simply assist their work using the tools we have provided (PMs and most notably, the reporting functionality).
Thanks,
-Petteri Pyyny, "Da Boss"
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AfterDawn Addict
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14. April 2005 @ 16:57 |
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Well I for one am glad this problem has been noticed. I know you are busy running the forum and don't always have time to read many of these threads, but it is good to see a post on this matter. I know I have personally tried to stop a few threads where this was a problem. It really wasn't my job and I don't try to act like a MOD but I did get involved a few times trying to defuse a hot situation. In most cases I use the Report Offensive Post feature which does work really well. We have great MODS on here that do an excellent job so I usually let them handle any problem I might see. Anyway this is a very good statement you made which is why you are the BOSS. Thanks.
Jerry
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Senior Member
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14. April 2005 @ 19:19 |
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Thanks for the post dRD!
Personally for me, I have noticed more and more the sarcasm in reference to successfully guide a newbie to take a look at the forum rules and other such things. There IS a polite way to tell a member to read the forum rules and/or engage in a civilized discussion. But unfortunately, it doesn't always happen that way.
I can agree, that I never thought I would have to use the Offensive Post button for awhile, but man, things just kinda get outta hand.
BTW...Keep it the good work!
;)
"From now on we are poison to you Spider-man...Thats why we call ourselves... VENOM"
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AfterDawn Addict
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14. April 2005 @ 19:45 |
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Hi,
I can tend to see your point dRD, and for the most part I agree with you, but I have also noticed a lot of really smart arse newbie's lately who don't care to use any of the great tools provided by this site (search). I haven't really seen these sarcastic or offensive remarks from a senior, Addict member (maybe a few here and there) in all though I haven't seen it that bad. I have made a few friends on here and if someone is going to be rude or obnoxious to them then I will always step in and try to help. If that?s "vigilantism" then I guess I am guilty and I'm sorry. The thing is and maybe it?s just me, but people are asking the same questions over and over and over again hell a lot of times there will be one post right under another post with the same question. Are you saying we shouldn?t direct someone to try using the search function? That we should PM a mod for every little infraction? I probably have lost my cool a few times on here (very few) but most of the time I am very polite and nice to everyone. Maybe we shouldn?t suggest they read the rules and use the search function because no matter how nice you say it most newbie?s just get mad and upset when all you are really trying to do is help them out. At least that?s what I am trying to do. I don?t know I just kind of take offense to this whole post I mean the members we have here are great (with very few exceptions) especially the ones that have been here for a while, and they are what makes this forum such a great place. Your wish however of letting the mods do all the policing will be followed by me from now on, and I hope this actually helps. I guess we shall see.
My Guides--------->http://webpages.charter.net/bacitup/
Newbies------------>http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/183136
Software ------->http://webpages.charter.net/bacitup/software.htm |
Senior Member
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14. April 2005 @ 19:54 |
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"From now on we are poison to you Spider-man...Thats why we call ourselves... VENOM"
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AfterDawn Addict
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14. April 2005 @ 22:30 |
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Most newbies don't know where the search function is so they post an oft-repeated question and with a bit of guidance from us they can find it. Eventually they will move up in the ranks, becoming God-like Seniors and Addicts and can then bitch about Newbies not using the search function and asking the same questions they themselves initially asked.
We can provide the help they need by being slow to anger and quick to help. Often times they are dealing with what they feel is a insurmountable problem, so a bit of help, a link or two and an "arrow" in right direction, will do more for them and AD than a curt "use the Search" will.
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I hate titles
35 product reviews
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14. April 2005 @ 22:35 |
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bbmayo: No, for guiding users to use search functionality, to tell them to read the forum rules (in this case, it helps to simply cut the b.s. and tell something like "Piracy is not allowed on these forums, suggest you read the forum rules from here <link>".), is perfectly fine and encouraged.
It is really the certain hostility that has sparked during the last few months in many of the threads / forum rooms that is slightly worrying me. Yes, we do have smartass newbies who simply want their answer immediately, don't have any idea of how to behave or be polite. But it doesn't mean that our Members, Seniors or Addicts should behave in similar unpolite manner when replying -- basically, to be harsh about it, if you don't have a solution or a guidance how to find a solution (for example, using the search or pointing to an existing thread that has an answer) , don't reply at all. And as said -- which was the main point -- that if you feel the person is in violation of our rules, don't reply anything "smart" back, but hit the "report an offensive post" button instead. It saves your time -- god/s know/s that there are way too many morons out there -- and by now, we all know that venting to a newbie doesn't help at all :-) And after all, the ultimate decision of what type of sanctions should be taken, has to be left to our mods.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 14. April 2005 @ 22:36
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andmerr
Suspended permanently
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15. April 2005 @ 01:14 |
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@ drD:
its nice to have some one at the helm who sees the big picture and can bring us back into some semblance of order.Of late there has been more friction between every one not just the newbies but from all of us as a community.Its getting to the stage that the bitchiness is driving every one to distraction and instead of concentrating on what is important , like helping people and enjoying this site we are literally being pricks to each other.
In some circunstances it is justified (rarely)especially when you have foul mouthed people threatening other people with violence .A prime example of this was that idiot who threatened neph.It was nice to see the community come together and vent as one .
Quote:
In most cases I use the Report Offensive Post feature which does work really well
I applaud the person who invented this feature as it is starting to become apparent that it is working as the number of spamming threads, posts in the wrong sections,foul language etc are slowing, becoming less apparant as you trundle around the forum.
Quote:
Personally for me, I have noticed more and more the sarcasm in reference to successfully guide a newbie to take a look at the forum rules and other such things. There IS a polite way to tell a member to read the forum rules and/or engage in a civilized discussion. But unfortunately, it doesn't always happen that way.
Very nice venom, and i say that with conviction and not sarcasm.
@ bbmayo :
I can sympathize with you AND I would also and have also stood up and being counted when i thought one of my AD friends where being unlawfully provoked.
Quote:
We can provide the help they need by being slow to anger and quick to help. Often times they are dealing with what they feel is a insurmountable problem, so a bit of help, a link or two and an "arrow" in right direction, will do more for them and AD than a curt "use the Search" will
As always frank level headed and great ideas and forethought in your posts.At this rate my friend you will make a great mod, if and when they tap you.
As for me what do you suggest, i have been told that i am spoonfeeding the newbies to a degree and that some of my responses should be less long and more to the point.
The other day i tried to help a newbie with long burning times.I didnt suggest the search function but i did suggest the usual things like change the media, check his computer, do a defrag etc.With in 2 mins of posting i get from this person "all the stuff you have suggested isnt working"can anyone else do something.
Now i understand the fustration of trying to help some one, this person didnt give us any information but thought we were mind readers.It took me about 4 posts to get his pc stats, media , programs,etc and with in 2 mins he led me to believe he'd done a defrag.......
What would you have us do ????
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I hate titles
35 product reviews
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15. April 2005 @ 01:55 |
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andmerr: I feel your pain related to the noobs dissing your advice and thus making it feel very, very pointless to reply to anyone. But then again, that is life and that is how this magical place called Internet tends to work :-) If, even after that saga, you didn't lose your temper, but instead managed to solve his problem and as final words added something hinting to the idea of a) being clear with their questions and also provide enough details when asked b) subtly hinted that there's this white little box at the top of the forum layout that does wonderful little things when used correctly, I can congratulate you :-) But ye, once that happens 15 times a day, it sorta pushes people over the edge. But as said -- if you are about to skin the guy alive, don't. Just ignore the thread, maybe even unsubscribe from it -- even tho it is not very nice to drop the subject, its much nicer than to tell the user how the people with <140 IQ should be castrated and why world should start to require computer driver's licenses for people using Net..
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 15. April 2005 @ 01:56
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andmerr
Suspended permanently
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15. April 2005 @ 02:04 |
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point taken dRD, but it seems my advice wasnt taken as this particular person has multiposted the same question with different headings about 5 times.Its disquieting to note that this was reported via the offensive button and said poster was admonished about multiposting but still he persists.I have just reposted the threads involved to the mods but have not left a sarcastic remark as hopefully this will lead others to consider there actions and follow the rules more diligently
cheers dRD
andmerr
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 15. April 2005 @ 02:10
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AfterDawn Addict
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15. April 2005 @ 04:12 |
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dRD,
All points taken in, and I agree 100% with you. After reading this post from you I have done a little browsing through the forums, and I can see what you are talking about. I guess I have just been ignoring most of it, and not getting involved in the childish behavior :-) I have actually read some pretty nasty threads just now, and I for one stand behind you 110%! I now see what you meant when starting this thread. We all need to be better people so we can have a more enjoyable place to come to in the future. I am afraid if thing's continue as they are headed right now this place won't be so enjoyable anymore (in the future). I will never leave though!!! :-) unless Neph throws me out ;-)
Cheers dRD :-)
My Guides--------->http://webpages.charter.net/bacitup/
Newbies------------>http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/183136
Software ------->http://webpages.charter.net/bacitup/software.htm
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AfterDawn Addict
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15. April 2005 @ 05:39 |
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Many of the problems come from how the question is answered. Example is the search.
BAD--Use the search dummy.
BETTER-- Try doing a search.
My way usually--The forum has an excellent search feature at the page top.
The last one takes a little longer to type but will usually get a better reaction.
Another possible problem I see at times are statements made as jokes. Sometimes these statements when TYPED OUT don't come across as jokes and start hostile replys. You have to watch what you type. You may know it was supposed to be a joke, the reader may not. Just another 2 cents worth.
Jerry
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 15. April 2005 @ 05:40
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Staff Member
2 product reviews
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15. April 2005 @ 06:18 |
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Quote:
Another possible problem I see at times are statements made as jokes. Sometimes these statements when TYPED OUT don't come across as jokes and start hostile replys. You have to watch what you type. You may know it was supposed to be a joke, the reader may not. Just another 2 cents worth.
This is an excellent point. Sarcasm and irony usually don't come across well on the internet, particularly to people who don't know you well. If you're like me it can be difficult to tell in person. A couple of posters on another board said it better than I could.
Quote:
Poster #1: Irony is often lost on the internet.
Poster #2: Well, irony is small and you have to hold its hand, or else it wanders.
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DGrayson
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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15. April 2005 @ 23:37 |
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Just wanted to say that I think the mod's do a good job and I know I made a post a few day's ago that I shouldn't have now after reading the rules sorry :o) and another thing I think that alot of younger people today just don't care how they act and it's sad I know as i'm having a hard time with my 13 year old now . going to have to break out the tuff love LOL !!! peace nightwing aka Dick Grayson
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AfterDawn Addict
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16. April 2005 @ 00:08 |
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Here is a good example of what we are talikng about;
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/166694
Palidin even PM'd me to apologize. I said it was not really necessary, as he already apologized in the forum.
I can be hard sometimes, but for the many, many reasons as stated by all my pals above!!
Just my thoughts on the matter!!!
Pulsar
Gif by Phantom69
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I hate titles
35 product reviews
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16. April 2005 @ 01:08 |
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pulsar: Your example details well how newbies can behave silly, but also your very first reply to the guy's question can be quite easily defined to be very rude -- remember, always, that people tend to hear "anger" and "hate" in your "Net voice" rather than "friendliness", even when your tone that you would have used when said it in real life, would've been friendly.
Reading the first reply to that thread, IMO, it puts a good example of a phrase that turns off people from becoming more active forum members -- specially, since the exact same thing could've been rephrased to be much nicer, something like "Nope, unfortunately I don't have an experience with that software, but I thought this might help you: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=fruity+loops&btnG=Google+Search "
Luckily, this time, the whole situation was solved and everybody seemed happy after several posts, but you hopefully get my point as well.
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AfterDawn Addict
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16. April 2005 @ 01:44 |
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drD, Absolutely. I have to agree with you. I SHOULD have replied in the manner in which you stated.
I am an ex-Mechanical Engineer of 17 yrs. When I was an apprentice we were always taught to think for a while about the problem in hand & find out for yourself, before asking for help. I guess I just fell back into "teaching apprentice" mode for a second! We were given no quarter as apprentices & it could be tough sometimes.
I do forget sometimes that not everyone has the same amount of knowledge & curiosity as I have in the mechanical/electrical/computer stakes. (My brother is a software engineer & thinks along the same lines as myself!) That makes me sound rather pretentious in saying so! LOL!
I do take pride in solving as many problems on my own as possible. In the whole time (17months) I have been here I have only posted 3 or 4 questions. I would like to think that I have helped a few people on my way. You will probably have a look now at my posts! GULP!!
I fully appreciate what you have said & would like to take this opportunity in saying this is a wonderful forum & I have made many new friends whilst I have been here. I sound like a sycophant don't I?!!
Kind regards, always,
Pulsar
Gif by Phantom69
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 13. July 2005 @ 23:07
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Moderator
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16. April 2005 @ 11:01 |
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I'd like pop in and give a BIG thanks to all the folks who report offensive posts or send pm's. It'd be a full time job looking through each and every new post (how many posts per day average dRD?) but with everyone's help it makes moderating much easier and more effective. Despite some snags here and there which dRD addressed I've seen these forums really shape and run smoother as a result of everyone's participation. All said and done 95% of the folks that come here just want to have a good time and share knowledge which is what the forums are all about. When the other 5% rear their ugly heads just think of the offensive post reports as calling in the artillery :D
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33 This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 16. April 2005 @ 11:03
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Buik
Member
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16. April 2005 @ 16:35 |
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Seems like there might be too many youngsters who have found AD. Impatient brats who think they should get instant satisfaction.
I don't mind trying to help someone. I need help once in awhile too. What is not needed is juvenille behavior. That type of behavior seems to be on the rise.
May we get back to requiring "specifics" on hardware, software & etc, if you want some help? That goes a long way. Reminds me of when I could't get a RAID drive up & running. DUH, Ted, did you "format the drives"?
I hate it when you ask for info (PM) and get the same complaint, that started the thread (w/o info back).
Because it has become a "Childrens" site, I have been visiting less & less. Why read obnoxious little brats posts?
TC
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 16. April 2005 @ 16:38
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AfterDawn Addict
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16. April 2005 @ 17:29 |
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@buik, I agree there are BRATS out there that shouldn't be allowed near a keyboard. Once again the fact comes into play that we are dealing with the internet and can't usually tell someones age exactly. Over several posts you may be able to ball park age. But you may also make the mistake that someone not familiar with a certain language is a child just because they can't type their message properly. We don't want to offend foreign members in any way. Its also very hard to know the technical ability of someone over the net. I try to answer questions as simple as possible for this reason. Maybe sometimes too simple but I usually get my points across. We do have to be careful on here and any site where messages are posted across the internet. I worked several years as the Customer Relations Manager for a very large company. Dealing with people everyday is something that isn't easy if they are mad at the world.
Jerry
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ScubaBud
AfterDawn Addict
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17. April 2005 @ 17:38 |
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One other thing I would like to mention is Post etiquette. Since it is impossible to view facial or body expressions within text I usually use a <G> or a :) to show that my post is in good humor and not to be taken as sarcastic.
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Senior Member
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18. April 2005 @ 13:41 |
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hi everyone. i am a real newbie in terms of only owning a comp for 6 mths. had loads of probs until i found afterdawn. i think the prob ly's in the fact that the word newbie implies that that person is young so therefore tends to get some veryshort replys ie. search and read. i am 63 so luckily for me i did just that, but i did find that when i did ask a question even though it was trivial to some, i found everyone was answered in good heart. so i applaud you all and the site in general. i was directed to an affiliated site by a member and found it was so eletist and derogetory to me, that i will never return to it or reccomend it to any of my friends. so stay pretty much as you are. best wishes. geoff
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AfterDawn Addict
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18. April 2005 @ 13:44 |
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Welcome gurnard. This site truly rocks! 63 eh? My stepdad is 70 & loves all of his PCs! (He is into digi-photography, big time!!)
Pulsar
Gif by Phantom69
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Senior Member
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18. April 2005 @ 14:53 |
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pulsar. thank you. i must admit im afraid, i've become an addict and spend several hrs a day when im not at sea (im a trawlerman) reading the forums. my knowledge has increased considerably to the point where i now help my friends. geoff
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Moderator
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18. April 2005 @ 15:11 |
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I'd also like to welcome to AD, Geoff. We all love to see new names become familiar ones (except pulsar, I wish he'd go away ;P)
I take it your nick refers to the type of fish called gurnards?
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 18. April 2005 @ 15:15
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