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Experiencing Difficulty Using DVD RB and CCE? If So, Then Ask Your Questions Here.
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happyuser
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6. August 2004 @ 16:00 |
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jdobbs !
If you are the author of the DVD-Rebuilder, please allow me to say hello and allow me to ask a few thing. If you are the author of this DVD-Rebuilder, the message bellow is for you. Please read on.
First, I would like to say that DVD-Rebuilder is a great program: compared to the big 3 methods, DVD-Rebuilder prevails: the re-authoring engine in DVD-Rebuilder is the most perfect one I have seen; and the convenience that this DVD-Rebuilder provides us and assists us in every aspect. And a lot more. DVD-Rebuilder is the best tool I have ever had a chance to use: and I am still using it to encode a lot of DVD films.
Again, it is a great program.
But I have rather a bit of concern the way this DVD-Rebuilder treats pure interlaced NTSC 29.976 and hybrid type video contents. Please allow me to be clear on this.
As we all know that ( please allow me to re-say this to make me more understandable ), when encoding with CCE ( or any other encoding engines ) we have to do as follows:
1. If the source content is FILM ( 95% or higher Progressive film ), then we use "Forced film" feature in DVD2AVI and encode as Progressive at 23.976 fps.
2. If source is contents that need to be IVTCed ( 90% or less Progressive film ), we then use an IVTC process , one of such is Decomb IVTC in AviSynth as Telecide()
Decimate(cycle=5).
3. When source is HYBRID, we have to use a hybrid treatment.
4. And when source is pure interlaced ( 29.976 fps ), we can encode it as interlaced ( alternate_scan=true ) ( 29.976 fps ), or we can deinterlace it with a good deinterlacer ( like the SmoothDeinterlacer ) and encode it as Progressive ( progressive=true ).
Here is the question that, if possible, would you please clarify for us: what engine ( algorithms ) does this DVD-Rebuilder uses to bring the 29.976 fps down to 23.976 fps: is it the same algorithm for all four video types as I had stated above: or there is a separate algoritm for each type of the video types I had stated above?
I seems that, in DVD-Rebuilder, there are ONLY TWO types of video: Progressive contents and pure interlaced contents: pure interlaced contents be deinterlaced with Decomb if user chooses to deinterlace them with Decomb, and Progressive contents be just encoded as Progressive ( progressive=1: progressive=true ).
If the above is true, then FILM contents and contents that need to be IVTCed ( please see above the four types of video I had stated ) are treated as ONE in DVD-Rebuilder: so "Forced Film" feature being used and these two type ( FILM and contents that need to be IVTCed ) are encoded as Progressive.
Also, if the above is true, then HYBRID contents and contents that are pure interlaced ( NTSC ) are treated as ONE: being deinterlaced with Decomb if the user chooses to do so, or being encoded as interlaced ( alternate_scan=true and ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true).
If all the above are true, then, it would be reasonable to use a good deinterlacer, like the SmoothDeinterlacer with this DVD-Rebuilder.
Can you please make an option in DVD-Rebuilder so that we can specify the syntax for SmoothDeinterlacer to be used in the deinterlacig procedure: more clearly like:
An option under "Deinterlacing" as "Deinterlacing Syntax" or "Deinterlacing Editor": with this, we can specify our own deinterlacing syntax.
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AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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6. August 2004 @ 16:38 |
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Still cleaning.
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 8. August 2004 @ 06:12
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jdobbs
Senior Member
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6. August 2004 @ 20:27 |
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@happyuser
You are obviously used to manually having to rebuild and deinterlace (especially for hybrid sources) using older methods (like the Big 3). In DVD Rebuilder you don't have to worry about all that. THE RESULTING OUTPUT WILL BE EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE ORIGINAL. If it is progressive, the result will be progressive. If it is interlaced, the result will be interlaced. If you have one of those (previously difficult) NTSC originals that is partially telecined and partially interlaced -- each and every frame in the output is handled exactly like the original.
The option to use DECOMB was put there for one reason only. Some people like to play their movies back on their PC and never actually burn a DVD -- and there are a lot of PC players that just look terrible playing interlaced sources.
The best strategy for most users is to not try to out-think the software and just use the default settings as they come when installed. You will get a good backup in 99.99% of all cases.
The algorithms in DVD-RB were all developed by myself -- and were designed specifically to get around all this stuff (that's the reason you don't run DVD2AVI -- I've written code myself to scan the original stream and document its form). I am in NTSC-land, and using older methods there was never a good way to convert hybrid sources -- deinterlacing has never worked that well, and as a result you ended up with a copy that could never truly match the original. The results were quirky at best. If you've ever tried to backup the STNG series discs, you'd see what I mean.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. August 2004 @ 20:37
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jdobbs
Senior Member
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6. August 2004 @ 20:53 |
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Quote:
Make sure you have already learned enough about this DVD-Rebuilder before trying to teach other on how to use it.
I think I've learned a little. ;-)
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Staff Member
2 product reviews
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6. August 2004 @ 21:01 |
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@jdobbs
I've been doing some testing with interlaced sources tonight and I was surprised to find that DVD-RB seems to always use Force Film. I'm sure there's no way to field match the DVDs I tested with because I made them myself by taking a D2V file that I used Force Film on, removing the top fields, weaving, and changing the framerate to 29.97fps with AviSynth. DVD2AVI tells me that the DVD created from this mess is 100% interlaced, but when I run Prepare in DVD-RB it gives me AVS files that play at 23.976fps. I don't have any DVDs that were originally interlaced to test this with, but it shouldn't matter since my butchered DVDs were definitely interlaced. I tried it 3 times, using different sources for each, but all were created using the same process and the resulting DVDs checked with DVD2AVI to verify that they were 100% interlaced, and all of them gave me 23.976fps AVS files with Interlaced=true used in the ConvertToYUY2 filter.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. August 2004 @ 21:03
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jdobbs
Senior Member
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6. August 2004 @ 21:32 |
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Don't worry about the frame rate. DVD-RB always sets the NTSC rate to 23.976 when it goes through CCE -- that's just part of the method and its necessary. The frame rate will be reset correctly during rebuild. It doesn't use force film -- as force film doesn't exist in this method (DVD2AVI isn't used -- I build the .D2V file with my own code). If your original source was interlaced -- it will also be interlaced during rebuild. The methods are based on an in-depth understanding of the internal workings of how DVD2AVI and MPEG2DEC work and it is absolutely necessary to rebuild the structure to match the original. The internal flags of the MPEG streams are also modified during rebuild, so you can't trust an examination of the .M2V files... you have to look at the final output in the .VOBs.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. August 2004 @ 21:35
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Staff Member
2 product reviews
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6. August 2004 @ 21:40 |
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Okay, I'll take your word for it as the internal workings of DVD2AVI and MPEG2DEC are PFM to me.
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jdobbs
Senior Member
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6. August 2004 @ 21:49 |
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Just to clarify why this is necessary consider a hybrid source. Parts of the source are interlaced and there are 29.97 frames physically in the MPEG stream for every second -- but the stream might change to telecined input, in which there are physically only 23.976 frames in the stream for every second. When encoding in CCE you can't tell it to do some frames at one rate and others an a different rate. So by setting a common denominator of 23.976 -- you make it possible to encode it. If you played back the .M2V you'd see some sections running at normal speed and others slowed. But it really doesn't matter, because the speed can be reset in the MPEG stream during rebuild and the RFF/TFF/progressive flags corrected for proper telecining and playback.
Another point I'd like to make is related to a comment I'd seen earlier where you'd had concerns that the sampling size of DVD-RB and the fact that it encodes only a cell at a time. That doesn't hold true with proper analysis of the original stream. One of the advantages of reencoding a previously encoded stream is that you already have one-pass before you even start -- the original that was previously encoded. DVD-RB uses the bit allocation of the original stream to determine cell sizes -- so you will get output that is as good (or possibly even better) than if you encoded the entire VTS as one unit. There are also a host of other problems that get injected into the process when you try to work at a level higher than cell.
Added: Something else to consider. When you use force film on a hybrid source you are actually removing frames from the original stream in any interlaced sections (in order to bring the frame rate down to 23.976) -- that always results in a severely degraded picture and often gives terrible jerkiness in scenes that are panned horizontally. This and other anomalies were the reason I decided to do the source analysis and .D2V creation myself. The odd .M2V files are a way of bypassing these types of difficulties.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. August 2004 @ 21:59
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Staff Member
2 product reviews
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6. August 2004 @ 22:03 |
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Well that clarifies a few things, but just for the record, unless I've misstated things somewhere along the line, the only thing I can recall saying about the effects of single cell encoding is that it makes it even less likely that additional passes while encoding will make any difference, making CCE SP a waste if all you're going to use it with is DVD-RB.
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jdobbs
Senior Member
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6. August 2004 @ 22:12 |
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Understand -- I didn't mean it as a negative remark. I thought it was a good point to bring up, anyway. I had a pretty long debate with some of the folks over at Doom9 because they thought a single cell wasn't a large enough domain to get the full benefit of VBR. I'd done a lot of work to ensure that wasn't the case... and numerous tests that examined the resultant Q values of the I, P, and B output showed that using the original stream as a baseline more than compensated for the smaller VBR compression domain.
Added: Agree with you on the SP/Basic question. The difference between 2 and 3 passes certainly doesn't warrant the huge cost difference. The OPV feature of SP does sometimes come in handy (especially for processing DV sources into DVD at a fixed quality level). But there really isn't a lot of advantage (especially considering the cost difference) when using it with DVD-RB. SP is aimed at video professionals.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. August 2004 @ 22:19
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Staff Member
2 product reviews
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6. August 2004 @ 22:27 |
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Don't worry, no offense taken. I know some of my posts (or even sentences) can be a little confusing for people (including me!) to read without going over them a couple of times. I didn't want people to get the wrong impression and think I was arguing an opposing view. As it happens, the main reason for my initial interest in using DVD-RB was because it's the only way I know of to set correct chapter points with CCE Basic since you can't force I frames like you can with SP. And since that's the only one version I have available now it's a pretty important feature. That alone was worth my $10 donation.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. August 2004 @ 22:28
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jdobbs
Senior Member
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6. August 2004 @ 22:28 |
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One other comment... I've said it before and I'll say it again. I really like your guide. It's the best one I've seen and makes its points very clearly and concisely. It's pretty much what drew me into joining this forum -- I just happened to find it in a web search. Excellent work.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 6. August 2004 @ 22:29
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Staff Member
2 product reviews
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6. August 2004 @ 22:30 |
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Thanks again! I guess the time I spent teaching has paid off.
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happyuser
Suspended permanently
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6. August 2004 @ 23:48 |
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jdobbs
You had been and are very generous to take your time to answer our questions. That is very generous of you.
Again, DVD-Rebuilder is a great program: since long, I had been painfully stuck with the Big 3 Method and now I have been saved by this DVD-Rebuilder.
Besides, this is a public forum: so I will not try to make you have to reveal your "secrets" ( your specialty secrets ).
What I did with this DVD-Rebuilder is this ( please allow me to tell this ):
All of the DVDs that I had done with this DVD-Rebuilder are FILM contents or contents that need to be IVTCed.
What I do is to disable "Interlaced" for all the VTS_Sets and then go into each and everyone of the AVSs ( video segments ) that are pure interlaced and deinterlace these pure interlaced segments with SmoothDeinterlacer ( I only deinterlace those that are pure interlaced ). The reason I do like this is after I disable "Interlaced" for all the VTS_Sets, this DVD-Rebuilder will encode all of the segments ( AVSs ) in all the VTS_Sets as Progressive ( evidence is progressive=1 ) without any deinterlacing being done. When a pure interlaced being encoded as Progressive, I think this pure interlaced should be deinterlaced with a good deinterlacer, like the SmoothDeinterlacer. It makes sense to deinterlace a pure interlaced segment ( AVS ) before encoding it as Progressive. And that is the reason I had used SmoothDeinterlacer and I had found the result to be perfect at low bitrate ( I had even lowered my EXTRAS to 1145 kbps and still these extras look pretty impressive in my TV ).
But in order to achieve the above, it had been taking me an extra lot of effort and time ( depending on how many pure interlaced AVSs there are ) to insert the SmoothDeinterlacer statement into these pure interlaced segments. ( I first run the Prepare with NO "Disable Interlaced" for all VTS_Sets and with "Deinterlace with DECOMB" ( to a TEMP directory ) so that to find out which of the AVSs ( segments ) are pure interlaced ( FieldDeinterlacer(blend=false) ); and then I run the actual prepare phase for my actual encoding ).
So as you had seen, without your help of giving us an option to specify our own syntax for deinterlacing the pure interlaced contents ( with the SmoothDeinterlacer ), we will have to spend more extra effort and time to achieve the best possible quality gain as I had tried SmoothDeinterlacer with this DVD-Rebuilder.
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jdobbs
Senior Member
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7. August 2004 @ 05:03 |
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Unless I misunderstand you -- you should be able to add any filtering statements to the AVS by using the filter editor under the AVS advanced options.
I wouldn't agree, however, that pure interlaced sources should be converted to Progressive. When a source is interlaced, trying to convert it to Progressive will distort it and almost always result in inferior picture. Progressive streams are only better when they are built from a truly Progressive source (like Film).
The fact that you can convert a source doesn't mean you should
Quote:
I will not try to make you have to reveal your "secrets" ( your specialty secrets ).
No secrets here. Sharing information and techniques is what these forums are all about.
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bappida69
Newbie
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7. August 2004 @ 05:47 |
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Great forum here!!
I just tried out (at least I tried to !)DVD Rebuilder after all the hype. Well, I followed the settings in the guide listed. This is what I did so far:
(1) Used DVD Decrypter to back up my movie Barbershop for all the files.(about 6.5 GB)
(2) Opened up DVD Rebuilder(V 0.56). The first error I got was that this had multiple angles and not supported by RB. But when I clicked on ok and closed the screen, the message was not there. So I chose Transcode(I have One-Click Mode ticked). It continued for hours and hours. At the end of it, when it was 100% complete, I looked up the folder.And sure enough, there were two folders-D2VAVS and AUDIO_TS. But the first folder was just 3.5 GB (as against the original 6.5 GB)and the Audio folder was empty. Deciding to try and burn the same, I could not do it because there was no Video_TS.IFO for burning!! The folder did not have any such files.
So is there something else I need to do to create the files? I am really very keen to try this out.
Thanks!!!
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jdobbs
Senior Member
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7. August 2004 @ 05:53 |
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Bad luck. Only a few movies (I'd guess less than 5%) use multiple angles... and the one you chose to try does. The current beta version of DVD-RB does not support DVDs that have multiple angles. I'm in the middle of developing that code right now. When DVD-RB says it doesn't support it, it's not kidding.
The audio folder is always empty on a video DVD -- but it should still be there for compatibility on some players.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 7. August 2004 @ 05:56
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AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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7. August 2004 @ 05:57 |
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" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. |
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64026402
Senior Member
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7. August 2004 @ 06:06 |
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DVDrebuilder doesn't support multi angle.
On the movies that use multi-angle or Interleave you need to strip the angles with a third party program.
DVDremake is popular and I use it regularly.
You can remove the angles along with any unwanted extras and keep the menus. It is easy to use.
I don't have to strip angles on most movies but I still edit the extras out on most.
Donald
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bappida69
Newbie
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7. August 2004 @ 07:59 |
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Thanks for the response! But as I had mentioned
"But when I clicked on ok and closed the screen, the message was not there. So I chose Transcode(I have One-Click Mode ticked). It continued for hours and hours. At the end of it, when it was 100% complete, I looked up the folder.And sure enough, there were two folders-D2VAVS and AUDIO_TS. But the first folder was just 3.5 GB (as against the original 6.5 GB)and the Audio folder was empty. Deciding to try and burn the same, I could not do it because there was no Video_TS.IFO for burning!! The folder did not have any such files.
So is there something else I need to do to create the files?"
Is this because of the multi angles problem. Transcoding completed successfully.
Thanks.
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64026402
Senior Member
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7. August 2004 @ 08:49 |
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Yes this is because of the multi angle.
Donald
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Staff Member
2 product reviews
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7. August 2004 @ 10:59 |
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@happyuser: As I stated previously, if you want to make changes to the AVS files for individual titles you should look at RB-Opt. Once you have it set up (with your preferred filters added to the favorites) you should be able to make any changes you'd like in no more than a couple of minutes.
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AfterDawn Addict
1 product review
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7. August 2004 @ 11:05 |
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bappida69
If you attempt to encode a multi angled movie without removing the extra angles you will not succeed. The extra angle have to be edited out and DVDremake does that in a couple of minutes without affecting the main movie. Then you'll have to add about another 20 minutes to export it. I gave you the URL for a thread here on AD that contains the information that we shared as we learned to do it, all of our first steps are there. I often jokingly refer to it as the DareDevil test.
Ihttp://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/90309
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 7. August 2004 @ 11:34
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happyuser
Suspended permanently
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7. August 2004 @ 11:54 |
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jdobbs
In DVD-Rebuilder, if I disable "Interlaced" for a particular VTS-set, this DVD-Rebuilder will encode all the AVSs ( segments ) in this VTS-set as Progressive, no matter what these AVSs ( segments ) maybe be pure interlaced or not. So pure interlaced AVSs ( segments ) are being encoded as Progressive.
vurbal
Within one particular VTS-set, especially those EXTRAS VTS-set, there are AVSs ( segments ) of pure interlaced, there also are AVSs ( segments ) of Progressive and of other types. When I decide to deinterlace those pure interlaced AVSs ( segments ), I only want to deinterlace these pure interlaced AVSs ( segments ) but not the others. For example, if, let's say, VTS_05 has ten AVSs ( segments ): four of them are either Progressive or contents that need to be IVTCed, and the rest are either pure interlaced or hybrid type. And let's say that the pure interlaced or hybrid types are 1, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10. Obviously you can not add statement to deinterlace with SmoothDeinterlacer to the other AVSs but only to 1, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10 AVSs. So RB-Opt will not work.
Again, if you disable "Interlaced" for all VTS-sets, this DVD-Rebuilder will encode all the AVSs ( segments ) in all the VTS-sets as Progressive without any deinterlacing being done. So pure interlaced AVSs ( segments ) are being encoded as Progressive without being deinterlaced.
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happyuser
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7. August 2004 @ 11:58 |
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vurbal
Have you tried the SmoothDeinterlacer with DVD-Rebuilder? If you have already tried it, you should not have answered ( responsed ) like that.
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