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should I go for RW dvd discs
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sorrow93
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6. December 2006 @ 01:01 |
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a popular brand in australia is TDK media I have used them since childhood I am a newbie to DVD-R burning and wasted four of a 5 pack of the latest TDK DVD-R I was wondering in the meantime should I buy some rewritables just a couple until my software and burning is sorted. most importantly will most stand-alone dvd players actually accept rewritables? My idea is that if I create a coaster I can rewrite.
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rulisky
Senior Member
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6. December 2006 @ 02:12 |
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Some stand alone players accept RW disks, some do not. You will need to check each player in its owners manual or from an online review of that particular player.
RW disks are a little more pricey. I bought like 2 or 3 at first, thinking as you did. But, it didn't take long to sort out. I have read here that RW disks can fail without warning. The R media is more reliable, as well as less expensive. Personally, I have not had an RW failure. I currently use one over and over in a VHS/DVD combo to record a show, watch, and reuse again like a blank tape.
Look into getting Taiyo Yuden or Verbatim disks. Well respected here and they are good. Most times if it says Made in Japan, referred to as "MIJ" here, the disks should be good.
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sorrow93
Member
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6. December 2006 @ 03:22 |
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thankyou that is interesting and helpful.
dug out my dvd manual and it does say DVD-RW as well as DVD+RW
I might try one or two of the rewritables and figure out the best DVD-R or DVD+R before buying say a spindle.
tdk australian DVD-R are manufactured in Taiwan close enough lol?
I've trusted tdk since the days of cassettes/videos/blank media they seem high quality but I have heard Verbatim are just as good.
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AfterDawn Addict
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6. December 2006 @ 03:53 |
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if you want the best media stick to this simple rule: Made In Japan. Buy only the media that says MIJ on the box or spindle! If you can't find any in the store then buy Verbatim..... that's the only exception to the MIJ rule! Verbatim is top notch media but made in Taiwan/Singapore by Mitsubishi Chemical (MCC manufacturers id). here is a guide to show you what's good and what's not good...... this guide is not perfect..... they list TDK as top notch when in fact it stinks! TDK must have sent them a lot of money to put them on the top list! but other than that ... this guide shows a good indication of what's good and what's not:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/media/dvdmedia.htm
most members here agree that the TDK media is crap! but don't take my word for it..... ask around. you'll see.
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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6. December 2006 @ 15:07 |
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CMC Magnetics is the manufacturer of Verbatim media made in Taiwan. The digitalfaq listing is very unreliable, misinformed, and out of date. TDK does not have the same support for their media as Verbatim or Taiyo Yuden, the most compatible media on the market. If your drive has made coasters out of 4 of 5 TDK discs, the most likely reason is lack of support for those discs, perhaps because they were 16X in an 8X drive. If you state what drive and firmware version it is, it is possible to check the compatibility.
If the discs had worked, then TDK would be compatible. In terms of test quality, TDK does rank high in the listings. In terms of compatibility, they do not do so well. Do not confuse the two.
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Senior Member
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6. December 2006 @ 15:28 |
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One problem with RWs is that they are not thought to be very durable. If you want to burn something to RW to test if it will work or if it's something you don't want to keep, then fine. Otherwise, work the bugs out of the -R or +R recording.
-Do you believe you own your computer and shouldn't be told what you can run and do? Then say *NO* to Microsoft Vista!
-Since half the questions here involve media problems, here ya go: Only use Verbatim or Taiyo-Yuden discs (get your TYs from Rima.com, not Supermediastore or meritline). Forget the rest, no matter what "brand" they sell under. Always burn at 4x speed regardless of the speed rating of this discs or your drive. If you have burn problems with these then you have to update your drive's firmware. For double-layer discs, only use Verbatim DVD+R DL and burn them at 2.4x speed.
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sorrow93
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6. December 2006 @ 17:10 |
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thankyou to everyone for the advice I have learned alot.
I might be leaning toward giving Verbatim media a go... I guess what works best in playback and quality... still learning.
I wanted different opinions and views and thats all good. thanks again.
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AfterDawn Addict
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6. December 2006 @ 17:17 |
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@JoeRyan ------- I think you are misinformed about DigitalFAQ's media guide. It's been updated as of November, 2006! So it's not entirely old! and Verbatim's Taiwan disks are MCC now! Last year it might have been CMC MAGs..... but not now! go check it out! You won't find any more Verbatim CMC MAGs.... go buy them now.... you'll see that they are either MCC or Taiyo Yudens, except for their DL disks. I suggest you look at their Branding Guide listed on the same page as their Media Guide: http://www.digitalfaq.com/media/dvdmedia.htm
as I am not the defender of DigitalFAQ's Meida Guide... I just want you to know that if there is a better guide out there SHOW ME THE MEDIA GUIDE! Until then I'll refer to DigitalFAQ's Media Guide..... and take it as an indication of what's good and what's not good! Show me a better guide and I'll switch to that one!
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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7. December 2006 @ 08:48 |
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Ihoe--
The MID code says MCC but CMC manufactures the discs in the Lin-Kuo II factory. Verbatim has no manufacturing in Taiwan at all. The MCC code is on the stamper used by CMC; so all discs coming from that stamper will have the MCC code on it, even if the discs go to HP or Memorex. The discs made with that stamper will have the MKK/MCC dye on them because the MID code instructs the drive to use the write strategy that works best with that particular dye formulation. (This is one reason why claims that CMC is the "worst manufacturer" have to be qualified or dismissed. Other factors are at play.) CMC also manufactures TDK media with TDK's MID codes and TDK's dyes, printable surfaces, and hard coating.
Ritek manufactures RICOHJPN and Maxell as well as their own discs. In the near future Ritek will manufacture all of Maxell's CD-R and DVD media, probably using Maxell MID codes. digitalfaq does not acknowledge these facts and uses reports from users about what works and what does not to determine disc quality. This is inaccurate since firmware compatibility issues are also reasons why discs work or do not work, and compatibility is not a matter of quality. Since digitalfaq does not report drives and firmware versions when discs do not work, it is impossible to distinguish quality from compatibility; and the "quality ratings" are much more indicative of the timing of firmware support than of quality when one plots the ratings against the curves of support timing. If digitalfaq were to state that its ratings were of "what works and what doesn't" rather than "what is good and what is not," I would have no problem with the ratings.
Unfortunately there is no guide that includes drives and firmware versions in the ratings of media with and without problems. Taiyo Yuden and Verbatim are the most compatible media (for several reasons, including politics) and that boosts their ratings. Both are also excellent quality in terms of test parameters determined by equipment out of the range of consumers and digitalfaq. TY 16X media are lately getting a bad rap for quality because they were late to market and have less support in older 16X drives than earlier versions of 8X media. They are suffering from the "CMC syndrome" of being branded as bad quality when the problem is more lack of support. Newer 18X drives will fix that for TY 16X media. CMC may have some dye problems, and they did have process problems late last year; but they do produce excellent MCC-coded Verbatim discs so something else is at work hurting their reputation.
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AfterDawn Addict
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7. December 2006 @ 09:18 |
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JoeRyan.......so by you saying that Quote:
The MID code says MCC but CMC manufactures the discs in the Lin-Kuo II factory. Verbatim has no manufacturing in Taiwan at all. The MCC code is on the stamper used by CMC;
that CMC owns Mitsubishi Chemical that makes Verbatim? Well..... all I can say is that I don't know who owns what but as you said what works with what player..... that some codes work better than other manufacturer codes to tell the player what write strategies work for what disk..... then why does the Memorex disks (the ones that code out to CMC MAGs) have trouble and Verbatim (the ones that code out to MCC) work better..... if they are both made by CMC MAGs..... why don't they upgrade to the MCC code on the Memorex??? got to be some reason why they don't do that, right? Memorex seems to be everywhere in all the store and more readily available than Verbatim, or Taiyo Yuden or Maxell. I would think that if Memorex and Verbatim were the same ...... why are there sooooooo many problems with the Memorex disks than Verbatim disks.... if they are made the same why does the Memorex disks fail after a while and the Verbatim disks don't! I have a few CMC MAGs that skip, freeze, and just quit playing... can't re rip them either! but I have Memorex that codes out to RICOHJPNs and they are doing just fine after 3yrs! I still don't understand if CMC MAGs owns MCC then why don't they just put out better Memorex to be coded out to MCC instead of CMC MAGs...... it doesnt' make sense to me? And if that's the case I'll still take MCC over CMC MAGs any day of the week. I go from my experience of thousands of burns and it does seem to coincide with the DigitalFAQ Meida Guide. Go figure. I just don't like what they did with the TDK media. Never liked TDK and have had bad experiences with them.
Compatibility and Quality of media? Interchangeable.... debateable... what ever...... my list is as follows...... Taiyo Yuden #1, Verbatim #2..... that's all I'll use..... end of subject and I don't have to go into anything else! MIJs.... then Verbatim (Taiwan/Singapore). Use those and nothing needs more to be said! my 2 cents ... even though you want to give me change.... don't need it!
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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7. December 2006 @ 10:06 |
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Ihoe--
Mitsubishi Chemical owns Verbatim. Mitsubishi's acronym appears in the MID codes "MCC" (English) and "MKK" (Japanese). MCC/MKK owns the stampers with the MCC/MKK MID codes and supplies those stampers to factories who do contract work for them. CMC Magnetics is the contractor for them in Taiwan. Mitsubishi also supplies materials for the discs such as dyes and printable coatings (LightScribe coatings developed for HP are one example.)
Drive manufacturers produce drives that have write strategy settings in them based on results obtained from initial samples of discs from certain manufacturers and write results analyzed by AudioDevelopment's CATs test equipment. Adjustments are made to the write strategy to lower jitter and increase certain output signals. Once the strategy is completed, the sample discs' MID codes are added to the drives' recognition tables so that when the drive encounters a particular MID code again, it applies the specified write strategy. If the MID code is not recognized, the drive: 1) ignores the disc; or 2) states that the disc is invalid; or 3) uses a default setting--often at a lower speed--to see if that works. Verbatim MCC/MKK codes are always included in the MID recognition tables as are Taiyo Yuden MID codes (except the 16X versions because they were late to market). CMC, Prodisc, Ritek, and others are often forced to use default settings or wait until firmware updates add write strategies for them to the drives. The hit or miss situation hurts CMC particularly hard.
CMC Mag MID codes use a stamper different from the stampers used for MCC/MKK. The dyes are not MCC/MKK dyes either. They are azo-cyanine from TDK and other manufacturers. Some cheap CMC production uses CMC Mag stampers and cyanine dyes to cut costs. HP, Philips, Memorex, TDK, and Imation specify the more expensive azo-cyanine dye for their production.
If a drive uses a default setting on a CMC Mag disc because the write strategy is not optimized for the disc, that disc may not last as long as another disc because the jitter and PIE errors may be quite high. Even if the PIE values are reasonable, the jitter and the contrast between pit land and pit may be poor enough that in a short time the contrast is insufficient to prevent a serious increase in errors because the read laser cannot resolve information. There can be other problems such as poor stamper geometry, unstable dyes, non-uniform coatings, and so forth that are quality problems. Both incompatibility and quality problems produce the same results; but there is a difference between the two. A study to determine the difference between them for CMC has been proposed, but that will take some time.
Your experience matches digitalfaq ratings because both are based on success or lack of success with drives and different media. The question is whether lack of success is due to quality or compatibility. digitalfaq presumes quality. I don't know. The proposed testing is an attempt to determine which it really is. Your preferences makes sense. You ought to stick with your choices, and you will not have any problems (except for some 16X TY--a compatibility not a quality issue). I don't want anyone to change from his or her choices if those choices prevent problems. I just don't like hearing that the problems are quality problems when they might just as easily be compatibility problems.
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AfterDawn Addict
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7. December 2006 @ 12:04 |
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what you said makes a lot of sense but stated as before..... we the public must assume that if it's incompatible with the burners then it's a quality issue... which as you stated might not be. Again.... compatibility means more to the public and therefore it might be seen as a quality issue. compatibility....... quality.... it's all per sieved as one! soooooo to us poor illiterate public.... it doesn't matter. Stick to what works for you.
I must say I have learned something from our conversation and I'm sorry if I come off to you as a hard ass..... or if I came on too strongly. thanks for your clarification and I still would think that if CMC MAGs would just conform to the MCC code then it, too, would have a superior product..... then again Sony had Beta video recorders that were better quality than VHS but we all know what happened to Beta recorders/players. Not all the time will the best product win in the World Markets.... Just the same ..... The best team doesn't always win the World Series in baseball! there's debate everywhere!
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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7. December 2006 @ 13:30 |
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CMC Mag cannot use the MCC code indiscriminately because Philips or the DVD Forum assigns the codes to rightful owners. The MCC code belongs to Mitsubishi. If CMC were to use that code/stamper, then they would also have to use the MCC dye or a dye that had the same properties because all drives with the MCC write strategy would apply that strategy to all MCC coded discs. There are some factories that use counterfeit codes. TY codes are a popular choice--but we all know what happens then. The dyes are not the same, the quality is nowhere near as good, and the discs don't work.
The distinction between compatibility problems and quality problems is not obvious. Consumers do not understand it, and I have had a hard time arguing the point even to AfterDawn members. TY's problems with 16X media have helped clarify things because no one wants to believe that TY can deviate from high quality while he or she immediately blames all CMC problems on quality, no matter what the evidence. My hope is that AfterDawn members will recognize the difference between compatibility and quality and lighten up the attacks on discs that don't work. My paying job is to improve consumers' experiences with optical drives so that all good quality media work with their drives, no matter what the brand and to enforce quality standards on the media manufacturers who deviate from quality. Happy Taiyo Yuden and Verbatim users do not need to change brands, and there is really no point of changing. Consumers who walk into popular retailers ought to be able to buy the discs on the shelves and still get playable recordings that will last 20 years or more, and we are far from that. And while I find that quality issues are not uncommon, it is restrictive firmware support that is the cause of most of the problems I have analyzed. Blue laser may be better only because there will be fewer drives, recorders, and media.
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AfterDawn Addict
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7. December 2006 @ 14:03 |
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I must admit that you have enlightened me about compatibility and mixing it up with Quality.... but I have to tell you...... trying to get the manufacturers that make the burners to adhere to better standards and better firmware updates to make compatibility and non issue ... what that's not economically fashionable in the world today...... if you make a better product and people break down the door to buy it then you form a monopoly on the market....... then eveyone cries that no one is making money except for the big guy..... and also there is no competition to make better ourselves...... and then what will make the public buy new in the future if you solve the compatibility problem! Quality will be up but the whole economic market will be lopsided...... another words..... THEY DON'T WANT TO MAKE BETTER...... THEY WANT THE PUBLIC TO KEEP BUYING! Thinking that if they buy new THAT will be better but it's not necessarily so! what ever...... the debate goes on..... manufacturers will do what they want to get their share of the market place and that's that! the go forward just enough and then stop...... because they have to have a future..... and the future will be newer products and upgrades so that the public still pays for newer things that seem better but in actuality they had this technology all the time and it's bogus! Just keep in mind that these manufacturers sell us DVD burners and tell us NOT TO BURN COPYRIGHTED MOVIES!!! hey..... I bought my movie... isn't it mine!? why sell me the movie on DVD and sell me a computer with a DVD Burner in it and now say...... hey don't burn those movies.... it's not really yours even though you buy it! sooooo scratch them up and don't make a back up on them .... we want you to keep buying the same movie over and over again and........ it's a vicious cycle! It's all BS to me and I don't care about it........ now where did we start from.... oh yeah, compatibility vs quality.... ok.... now you know where I stand. LOL
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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7. December 2006 @ 15:54 |
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Good point! Last year Sharp sold a Funai-manufactured VHS/DVD recorder that could not record any DVD-R discs beyond 4X despite the fact that very few stores selling that recorder still had 4X DVD-R discs. I asked the Sharp product manager what his customers were supposed to do to record. He said, "Buy the new 2006 model. It works with 8X but not 16X." You are exactly right.
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Senior Member
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7. December 2006 @ 21:19 |
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Quote:
ey don't burn those movies.... it's not really yours even though you buy it! sooooo scratch them up and don't make a back up on them .... we want you to keep buying the same movie over and over again
By extension, that's what the whole HD/BR thing, downloadable music and movies, etc. is is about as well: Milking the consumer like a friggin cow. Crap, I've already bought Top Gun Out three times - twice on VHS, once on DVD...I ain't gonna for the same trick again...
-Do you believe you own your computer and shouldn't be told what you can run and do? Then say *NO* to Microsoft Vista!
-Since half the questions here involve media problems, here ya go: Only use Verbatim or Taiyo-Yuden discs (get your TYs from Rima.com, not Supermediastore or meritline). Forget the rest, no matter what "brand" they sell under. Always burn at 4x speed regardless of the speed rating of this discs or your drive. If you have burn problems with these then you have to update your drive's firmware. For double-layer discs, only use Verbatim DVD+R DL and burn them at 2.4x speed.
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AfterDawn Addict
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8. December 2006 @ 02:45 |
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sooooooo .......... now that we went totally off topic....... should I use an RW or an R disk?
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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8. December 2006 @ 07:42 |
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Use DVD+/-R for recordings that you want to keep a long time. Use DVD+/-RW for temporary recordings or time-shifting. Use rewritable over and over until some errors or pixelation pops up, then throw the discs away and move to another rewritable disc. They ought to be good for 1,000 rewrites, but many get unsatisfactory increases in jitter at around 600 rewrites.
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AfterDawn Addict
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8. December 2006 @ 09:04 |
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and there's your answer! thank you Joe!
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sorrow93
Member
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8. December 2006 @ 17:22 |
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thankyou for the discussion you two know your stuff it was actually good to read.
thanks for the final answer too. helps alot.
1000 rewrites and at least 600 sounds okay to me.
I just bought the one rewritable disc and the rest were +r
so limited choice in my part of the world I had to go for tdk because I didn't want to buy a spindle of 50. so I bought some individual tdk's I really feel like telling the stores and chains to offer more choice it's a joke at the moment.
I went to three seperate stores including the big chains and one small store and the selection is laughable.
Just to repeat the reason I don't want to invest in a spindle just yet is because I would prefer to try before I buy and know that the media works for my burner and stand alone players.
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14. December 2006 @ 04:06 |
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Originally posted by JoeRyan:
Ihoe--
The MID code says MCC but CMC manufactures the discs in the Lin-Kuo II factory. Verbatim has no manufacturing in Taiwan at all. The MCC code is on the stamper used by CMC; so all discs coming from that stamper will have the MCC code on it, even if the discs go to HP or Memorex. The discs made with that stamper will have the MKK/MCC dye on them because the MID code instructs the drive to use the write strategy that works best with that particular dye formulation. (This is one reason why claims that CMC is the "worst manufacturer" have to be qualified or dismissed. Other factors are at play.) CMC also manufactures TDK media with TDK's MID codes and TDK's dyes, printable surfaces, and hard coating.
What you say is very misleading and most people will not comprehend that. Some of it is a bit inaccurate too.
You have to consider CMC as a vendor, a piece of real estate. They provide a location and some sheeple (workers) to make the discs. But everything about the MCC media is strictly MCC. And everything about TDK is TDK. And everything CMC is CMC.
It's not a case of CMC using and MCC code on their own disc. This is precisely why CMC, MCC, TDK, MBI and Prodisc media all behave differently (the mish-mash of manufacturers that are related in some way).
In the same vein, this is why the write strategy is not the only consideration. You cannot magically take an inferior disc and make it work better simply because the write strategy is perfec ton the drive. Inversely, you can quite often take discs from SONY and MCC and TAIYO YUDEN and cram them into ancient 5-year-old drives, where the burner uses a generic write strategy on the "unknown" media, and the burns still turn out 100% perfect.
While burn compatibility is surely a consideration when determining media quality, it's far from being the only one. It's also a fair assessment, one which most people will make by the way, that a difficult product (one that needs special care, extra rubbing, begging, etc) is too needy and therefore not as good as others.
Beyond that you have reflectivity (which can equate to player compatibility), raw burn quality, etc.
And on a side note, Hitachi/Maxell media has historically had no relation to Ritek, in terms of manufacturing. Japanese-made MXL and MAXELL media was made by Hitachi/Maxell in their Japan plant. Maxell has re-branded some Ritek media in the past and currently, however. The future may change (Maxell contracting Ritek in Taiwan), I've really not looked into it.
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AfterDawn Addict
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14. December 2006 @ 09:27 |
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Oh my, I think it is JoeRyan's sensible twin!
Lol, only joking, but well put. You know your stuff :-D
Welcome to aD!
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Senior Member
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14. December 2006 @ 15:19 |
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Hey, LS, good to see you around here!
-Do you believe you own your computer and shouldn't be told what you can run and do? Then say *NO* to Microsoft Vista!
-Since half the questions here involve media problems, here ya go: Only use Verbatim or Taiyo-Yuden discs (get your TYs from Rima.com, not Supermediastore or meritline). Forget the rest, no matter what "brand" they sell under. Always burn at 4x speed regardless of the speed rating of this discs or your drive. If you have burn problems with these then you have to update your drive's firmware. For double-layer discs, only use Verbatim DVD+R DL and burn them at 2.4x speed.
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JoeRyan
Senior Member
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15. December 2006 @ 05:24 |
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I don't see any inaccuracies in my statements. CMC Magnetics Lin-Kuo II builds Verbatim's and TDK's Taiwanese discs. Verbatim media use MCC dye and stampers designed by MKK/MCC with those MID codes on them. TDK specifies its own dye as well as stampers in many cases. CMC uses its stampers and azo-cyanine and cyanine for its production on the same equipment with the same workers. There are additional manufacturing lines, but Verbatim and TDK specify which lines are used for their production.
Write strategies are determined by a number of factors, and jitter and I14/I14H are two of the most important. Tweaking a write strategy can make a disc on the low end of a tolerance work better, but only at the sacrifice of other parameters; and most drive manufacturers prefer not to deviate too much from the default values anyway. (Increasing tape bias reduces dropouts on inferior tape at the sacrifice of SOL as an analogy.)
5-year old drives often work with lots of discs, good and bad, at default strategies because the default typically slows speeds down and spreads the bell curve of jitter reduction values so that the peak range is easier to find. On the other hand, excellent TY DVD+R 16X discs are having problems on some very modern drives, not because of disc quality, but because of write strategy differences. There are nearly 100 different quality parameters that can define why a disc does not work. I have yet to see one mentioned when a user has a problem even though many are physically obvious. In those cases where users do mention their drives, it has been a case of a "known" incompatibility problem in almost every case. The problem is that it is very difficult for most people to know if the discs they buy are compatible or not. This is the fault of the industry, and drive and media manufacturers should be ashamed of the mess they have made for consumers.
There is no such thing as 100% perfection in any optical medium. Even if there had been, that disc developed errors over night as the dye composition begins its long slide to illegibility.
Ritek has been manufacturing Maxell CD-Rs and some DVDs for the last four years. When the Maxell package says "Taiwan," that means "Ritek." All Maxell media production will soon be moving to Ritek so that Hitachi/Maxell can concentrate on Blu-ray production.
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Member
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16. December 2006 @ 04:14 |
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JoeRyan wrote:
Quote:
There are nearly 100 different quality parameters that can define why a disc does not work. I have yet to see one mentioned when a user has a problem even though many are physically obvious. In those cases where users do mention their drives, it has been a case of a "known" incompatibility problem in almost every case. The problem is that it is very difficult for most people to know if the discs they buy are compatible or not.
Could you explain this a bit further, more information, or where to find such information, would be very useful.
Quote:
Even if there had been, that disc developed errors over night as the dye composition begins its long slide to illegibility.
Sorry, I didn't understand this...
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