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POLL - Should the law allow restoration of old records to CD/DVD?
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Senior Member
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7. March 2004 @ 05:04 |
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To all of you at afterdawn. The law is getting to be a monster now, with the new draft legislation at the EU proposing to allow Copyright holders the right to enter your home, confiscate your equipment and freeze your bank accounts if they even suspect you have "illegal" dopies of music, ie home taped, nome made CD's etc. in your possession, WETHER YOU GAIN FROM THEM FINANCIALLY OR NOT!
I believe this is outrageous. The US are also watching this one with a view to extending the infamous DMCA to allow the same things. You can find out all about the proposals at
http://www.ipjustice.org/CODE/021604.html (the proposal)
http://www.ipjustice.org/CODE/update20040223_en.shtml
an assessment of the impact
http://www.ipjustice.org/CODE/usgovt_EUIPRED.html
The US govermnents thought on this.
This law has been "fast tracked", which means is is not subject to debate, but will be imposed by decree.
Please show your support - or not - by posting below.
I will edit this post daily with the running results as follows:
A/. Those in Favour of the new laws B/. Those opposed to the new laws C/. Those who think it will not apply to them
RUNNING TOTALS
Opposed to new laws 4
In Favour of new laws 0
Don't care about new laws 0
There is now an online petition at this URL
http://www.petitiononline.com/fairuse/petition.html
Your support is important - please go and sign!
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This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 9. March 2004 @ 01:03
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Prisoner
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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7. March 2004 @ 14:33 |
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THis is truly crazy. I would say I am totally opposed to these new laws. The loss of individual freedom is around the corner.
Have these people totally lost the idea of consumerizim? Their clearly not thinking, as this would result in less money to the developers. Right now there are three groups of people, thouse that buy and agaist piracy, thouse that buy and make freely available and those that pirate. The ones in the second and third group, either want the product to test it before buying or would never buy in the first place and what see what the product can do. The first group of peopole bought it and want to stick with it until the end of time. If any thing goes wrong they usually want service and patches for free. The second group are mainly consumers and will buy and keep buying. The third group is just good advertising that will tell there friends and family about the product. If this goes through, you lose the second and third group and only the non upgrading wining group is left. The only way to resolve this is to offer the thing for free trial, but then since you pissed off people someone will crack it. So you have recreated the third group but lost the second group.
I am not a number
I am a Free Man
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Moderator
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8. March 2004 @ 12:02 |
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Absolutely opposed.
It is truly a pity that laws like these are even considered. These proposals are beyond ridiculous. Even more sickening is the fact that this isn't even open to debate. Our governments are becoming corporate boardrooms.
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33 |
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Prisoner
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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8. March 2004 @ 12:34 |
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Wilks ask a Mod or admin to put this up in a more noticable spot, Like on the main forum page. Then more people can see it and give you feed back.
I am not a number
I am a Free Man
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Member
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8. March 2004 @ 16:51 |
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Unequivocally opposed.
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mfurj
Member
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8. March 2004 @ 17:33 |
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/\ /\ /\ What he said /\ /\ /\
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Senior Member
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13. March 2004 @ 04:01 |
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Too late - it's gone through the European Parliament.
It will be law right across the EU within 18 months.
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Prisoner
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13. March 2004 @ 06:31 |
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Wilkes, are you serious? I thought no way would that go through. It completly goes against the rights of people!!
I am not a number
I am a Free Man
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Senior Member
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13. March 2004 @ 09:53 |
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Yep - totally serious.
Anyway - since when did what ordinary people want ever matter?
http://www.ipjustice.org/CODE/021604.html is the original proposal, and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3545839.stm confirms it has gone through.
When you add it in to the law that went through October last year in the UK, it makes everything very much "up in the air".
We have currently pulled advertising to redesign & offer "restoration" services instead. Also now need a copyright lawyer. Meeting one tomorrow & will post results of meeting so all in UK will know where we stand. As it is at the moment, I'm considered the same as a pirate! for restoring old vinyl to a format where it can be enjoyed again. Where will this leave vintage car mechanics, they don't own the patents. Furniture/Art restorers, where it will all end up is anybody's guess!
Tigre/Mods - can you lock this one down please, and I'll begin a new post with the results of the legal meetings elsewhere.
Thanks
Wilkes
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Motomatt
Senior Member
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13. March 2004 @ 10:27 |
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Absolutely opposed.
And to be honest I feel really scared that something like this is even a thought. Whats next bar codes laser etched on our foreheads? no let me guess? Taking my guns? This scares me to death. I need to run check and see how much ammo I have. You never know when they are gonna start herding us all together into work camps or something..
Matt
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jonss
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14. March 2004 @ 03:25 |
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Once, there was Democracy. Now, I don't know what you call it but it 'aint Democracy. The Judges in these cases should be forced to take a reality check. Their problem is that they have not plunged headlong into the 1980's yet, let alone, the new millennium. They are too tied up with 'precedents' and less concerned with the audacity to set a few new ones. Public disobedience will prevail and all of the vinyl's and tapes out there will be more likely to be distributed as a result of their shortsightedness. More power to the people.
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Senior Member
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14. March 2004 @ 04:19 |
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Trouble is that public disobedience will only prevail if all the public are actually prepared to get off their collective arses and actually do something instead of sitting there in front of Pop Idol, or the soaps.
Experience in the UK says this is never going to happen. When there was all the trouble with the Poll tax, everyone stood firm - after all, they can't put us all in jail - and the government appeared to back down. At that point, rather than push the advantage gained, everyone said "okay, we believe you". All that ended up changing was the name.
The other huge problem is the "well I will still do as I please", or worse still "it doesn't apply to me" type of attitude.
It does apply to everyone. Freedom has a price, and that is eternal vigilance. Remember, we are supposed to be consumers - we are meant to consume, not cause trouble, and if you don't fit into the pattern you are made to feel like an aberration and ridiculed, or worse still held up as "antisocial". We have new laws about that here in the UK too. Antisocial behaviour is a criminal offence. Seems okay until you begin to ask just whose definition of "antisocial" is taken for the supposed "norm".
The last countries that did this ended up with the gulag & the concentration camps. It's truly scary, it really is.
To get back on topic (sorry about the last bit - I'll get off my soapbox now) the whole Intellectual Property/Copyright issues are - in my opinion, anyway - a kind of testing ground to see what can be got away with, inasmuch as all this legislation is breaking new ground all the time. Bit by bit (no pun intended) our freedom is being eroded away.
"we must stop piracy" - fair enough
"piracy is funding international terrorism" - say WHAT? where did that one come from??? Yet the commercials are out there for all to see in trailers added onto movies you rent from the local shop. Piracy is funding terrorism, therefore to protect our way of life we must prosecute filesharers, and don't forget the evils of MP3. Everybody knows MP3 is killing the music industry, just as home taping killed it in the seventies! Yeah, right.
If anything, MP3 downloads are at worst insignificant, and at best actually help as it gets more awareness of the music that is out there.
What is killing the music industry is things like EMI signing Mariah Carey for so much money that they had to drop (don't remember the number) loads of signed bands to pay the bill. Then, when the album didn't sell they paid her a load more money to go away again. Madness.
£80 Million to Robbie Williams? In the name of God, why?
It's the lawyers who are killing the music business, along with the armies of accountants looking for the quick killing. Bugger the long term development of artists that used to happen. Where are the bands getting signed and put out on tour to learn their craft? Gone. Instead you get a nationwide "talent" contest in the never ending hunt for yet another covers band that mime to somebody elses music. Rack up another ten mill to Simon Cowell. Ker-CHING!!!!
Aaargh. My brain hurts. Sorry to have inflicted this on you all - I'd better go before I say something I'll probably end up regretting.
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zachzchw
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21. March 2004 @ 17:14 |
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Completely against the new laws. One thought- where is the support of our rights from blank media companies or companies who make the drives? I know they say their products are not to duplicate copyrighted materials, but come on, what percentage of their sales come from people like us? Seriously, its not like Im going to open up a blockbuster store from my basement. With some new dvd sets costing upwards of $100, they are trying to tell me I cant make backups to protect my investment? Absolutely ridiculous.
plant seeds of thought, so that they may grow into fruitful blossoms of knowledge........
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A_Klingon
Moderator
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21. June 2004 @ 22:41 |
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Hello, Wilkes !
I am so sorry, that in your professional field of work, you have to deal with this sort of prehistoric Horse-Shite. Even moreso than an "average" consumer, you are a victim in that this will have a big impact on your legal income.
Here in Canada, as a consumer, we are much better off than in Europe or the USA. Section 80 (I believe) of the Canadian Copyright law clearly states that we may make personal music copies for at-home use, whether we bought the original music at retail or not. But it would be folly on my part to turn a blind eye to what is happening in your neck of the woods..... these copyright-holding fanatics (traditional content-providers, aka RIAA & member organizations) could coerce legislators to SCREW US next.
Frankly, I occassionally transfer vinyl to red book cd whenever I feel like it. And even if Canadian law were to change for the worse, "they" could still kiss my you-know-what. In your case, I admit, you are not so fortunate.
These new yet-to-be laws are purely Neanderthal in deceitful concept and have Zero bearing on any Fair Use Rights you can think of.
(Unrelated):
Seems the good folks at UHF Magazine are at it again. These, you will recall were the same people who confidently predicted the near-obsolescence of the DVD-Audio format. ("The Betamax Of Hi-Res Formats"). In their latest newsletter they state:
THE LINEUP FOR ISSUE NO. 70 :
That lineup is now absolutely definitive, since the issue is mere days from going to press (as usual, we'll keep you up to date on the proceedings).
The feature articles are:
?How SACD won the war. Or perhaps how DVD-Audio lost the standards war.
(www.uhfmag.com/newsletter.html)
When this issue goes to press, I will put their "findings" (pronouncements, actually) into a post here.
-- Klingy --
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Senior Member
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22. June 2004 @ 01:36 |
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Mike , Thanks for the comedy.
Been building a new DAW, hence recent silence.
Nice new Dual Xeon system.
What with Minnetonka's efforts, WaveLab 5 & now discWelder Bronze going MAC soon, plus Philips signing up for MLP/DVD-A then I guess it is obviously over for DVDA.
Not.
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A_Klingon
Moderator
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22. June 2004 @ 04:35 |
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Mike, thanks for the comedy.
Gotta maintain a sense of humour in these trying times, Neil. Simply shaking one's head in disbelief doesn't seem to work any more.
I will take UHF's ipso facto declarations with a healthy grain of salt. This is not the first time they have made pronouncements like this in the past tense, e.g. The War Is Over, and as with their current, past-tense announcement, How SACD won the war; how DVD-Audio lost..., I expect we'll see even more like-minded judgements in the months and years to come.  .
Congratulations on your impressive new Work Station! (My, my..... the DVD-Audio bizz must be doing fairly well these days, eh?) Must be all that 'illegal' vinyl preservation you are doing. :-)
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Senior Member
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22. June 2004 @ 04:43 |
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That would do it!
Got well caught out not so long ago.
Quoted the usual price, per hour of material, and found out the hard way just how long it takes to do a set of old 45's in, A & B sides, clean up, get levels similar, etc.
Lucky if I make £100 in a day doing that. Still, a deal is a deal. That'll teach me. Besides - the plus point is that I'm hearing some stuff again that I had forgotten about, and peversely enough I even went out & bought my own copies of some of the albums these old singles were lifted from.
My conscience will not allow me to take a copy for myself, and besides - I wanted the whole album.
So the industry that thinks this costs them money actually made money out of me doing it!
How's that for irony!
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A_Klingon
Moderator
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22. June 2004 @ 05:12 |
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(The industry is rife with ironies).
Here you are, actually contributing to the bottomless pockets of the music industry! Oh! Have you no shame?
(Gawd....) Can't speak professionally, but lovingly restoring a box of vintage 45-rpm singles would be a process that I would love to indulge in. I would have to lock myself away and disconnect the phone for a week at least.
I might never get to see or hear those singles ever again. (In my own case, I am thinking of the original pressings of the so-called 'British Invasion' pop singles of the '60's.). Irreplaceable content. On genuine, high-resolution DVD-Audio, a gift.
(Ah well...... I'll have to stick to red-book for now). :)
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AfterDawn Addict
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22. June 2004 @ 07:58 |
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THIS NEW LAW IS INSANE.
This type of law will never fly in the US, because they would first have to amend the constitution, which is a daunting task to say the least (illegal search and seizure). I can?t believe after all that Europe has suffered at the hands of the former USSR that the new EU would even give this law consideration. If this law goes through then those who are part of the EU are loosing their freedom to exist as a free thinking people. Allow one agency to have the right to enter people?s homes and you ultimately allow any agency with an apparent legitimate agenda to follow. If they try this in the states then all I can say is remember the civil rights and anti war movements of the sixties.
_
" Please Read!!! Post your questions only in This Thread or they will go unanswered:
Help with development of BD RB: Donations at: http://www.jdobbs.com/. This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 22. June 2004 @ 10:04
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Senior Member
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22. June 2004 @ 10:07 |
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(Gawd....) Can't speak professionally, but lovingly restoring a box of vintage 45-rpm singles would be a process that I would love to indulge in. I would have to lock myself away and disconnect the phone for a week at least.
I might never get to see or hear those singles ever again. (In my own case, I am thinking of the original pressings of the so-called 'British Invasion' pop singles of the '60's.). Irreplaceable content. On genuine, high-resolution DVD-Audio, a gift.
Oh - believe me, I was tempted by some of them, I really was.
What I plan to do is regularly get myself down all the local record fairs, and pick up the vinyl myself.
That way I will be transferring stuff I own, and won't feel like a steaming great hypocrite.
I still cannot see any problem with transferring stuff I own, or that someone else owns for them. If they want to come & nick me for this, then let them. It will make fine reading in the press.
I'm going to really tempt fate now, and say I don't honestly believe that they would dare.
Cue the knock on the door.......
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A_Klingon
Moderator
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23. August 2004 @ 02:02 |
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Mark.... (mfurj)..... if you're still out there, I need your snail mail address, ok?
I (naturally) forgot where I put your envelope (with the Pioneer review), but I am going to have the publisher of UHF (Ultra High Fidelity) magazine send you and Wilkes the latest issue.
There's a piece in there about the "death" of the DVD-A format in favour of SACD that makes for interesting reading. Was it Mark Twain who said, "Rumours of my demise have been greatly exaggerated." ? <gg>
Will send you a PM. (thankee)
We now return you to your regularly-scheduled conference.....
-- Mike --
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Prisoner
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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23. August 2004 @ 06:37 |
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Interesting to see a Moderator post a completely off topic comment to an old thread. I was surprised you didn`t just PM them.
But glad you didn`t, what issue will that be published in? I will have to read it as well.
Thanks A_ Klingdon.
I am not a number
I am a Free Man
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A_Klingon
Moderator
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24. August 2004 @ 03:25 |
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Hellooooo Prisoner !!!
Quote:
Interesting to see a Moderator post a completely off topic comment to an old thread...
Off-topic is my specialty, Prisoner. (Or an unfortunate 'habit' of mine; take your pick). :-)
Whatever works, eh?
Quote:
I was surprised you didn't just PM them.
Actually, I did. And sent email(s) too. Like I say, whatever works to get his/their attention, eh? (Still waiting for a response from Mark; Wilkes has responded).
This is the magazine/issue in question, Prisoner:
Do you think I can find a copy of this thing *anywhere* locally? (Oh, nooooo....) Every place I've gone to is sold out. Like Sherlock Holmes once remarked, "Hmmmm, my dear Watson, something is afoot." :)
There is what I consider to be a very controversial piece in this issue which starts out...
How SACD Won The War (or) to put it another way, How DVD-Audio Blew It Big Time.
Note the past tense wording used in these ipso-defacto statements. I don't know how it is that an audio format can be won or lost simply by a magazine's say-so, but since I have been reading this publication for over twenty years, I have come to regard the opinions/outlooks of the publisher, Mr. Gerard Rejskind, very highly. It is quite out-of-character for him to make such definitive statements out of the blue like this, and so I am most eager to read the full piece. (As soon as I can get my mitts on a copy of the mag!) :)
Earlier, he had written...
"The War Winds Down. -- No, I'm not referring to that little skirmish in Iraq. I'm talking serious hostilities: DVD-Audio versus SACD. A year ago it looked like the Mother of All Battles. Today? The troops of Sony and Philips are occupying the terrain. It's all over but the reconstruction.
"What happened? Didn't DVD-Audio have a natural advantage, with some 160 companies behind it, versus only two for SACD? What about the claim that, within a year, all DVD video players would also read DVD-Audio? But it never happened. It seems that if you have 160 parents, none of them would take responsibility for feeding you.
"Until now, we had been cautioning readers against investing money in what could turn out to be the sonic equivalent of Betamax. The question is now clear: DVD-A is Betamax, and SACD is VHS. The war is over."
I don't necessarily agree. Do you? I like both formats, but I am no closer today in believing either format has definatively "won" any more than I was a year ago. I don't like technologies I can't understand, and quite frankly, SACD's "DSD" encoding confuses me. On the other hand, DVD-A's Linear PCM seems very straightforward to me.
You can download a small, rather-handicapped sampling of the magazine-in-question in .pdf format, Prisoner, from here:
http://www.uhfmag.com/Issue70/Issue70.html
Wilkes (Neil) has already responded (he even said that he would impart his thoughts to the publiaher, and Neil is in a very good position to do so), but I have yet to hear from Mark.
(Don't know where he's hiding, but I *do* know that he, like me, hangs out in very obscure 'Net Places', so I'll track him down sooner or later).
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Prisoner
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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24. August 2004 @ 12:48 |
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I own a Sony DVP-Cx985V player which plays only SACD. I have not heard a DVD-A. I have tried to ask for DVD-A in some stores here in Toronto and people get confused and think I want Video recordings of shows. But with Super Audio CD (SACD) they know what I am talking about and show me the 10 or 50 that they may have in stock.
I have read the papers Wilkes kindly sent to me. I was a Graduate of University of Waterloo. But still have issues believing the reported results in the one paper about damage issues with SACD. The only negative I could think of SACD was that a lot of Speakers want to use the high frequencies for wireless comunication. And I question if you could get slightly more interference with SACD than DVD-A format.
But I think I still vote more on the SACD side of things, but I have not listened to a DVD-A disk, So you do need to take that with some salt.
Thanks for the journal link. With you massive Mod poweres could you cut out our conversation and create a new thread here? Call it DVD-A is Dead, I think would create more disscussion.
I am not a number
I am a Free Man
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A_Klingon
Moderator
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26. August 2004 @ 02:54 |
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Well, until Wilkes responds (hopefully after reading the issue), I'll hold off doing the cut & paste thing. (Or just start a new thread). We're really rehashing a year-old conversation here.
Prisoner, in my own, very limited listening, I have found DVD-A to sound better than SACD *in general*. Even though I love music, I'm not, perhaps, the most discering of listeners nor do I have the best equipment to listen on, BUT, I think a LOT of my perceived quality judgements *may* have more to do with the studio mastering of these albums (of either format), than the actual technology used.
Doesn't matter technically how good a format/technology is if the sound engineer or label couldn't give a damn about properly mastering it. I've read many online reviews of just-released sacds which were all but condemned for their miserable sound quality. (Fantasy Record's Creedence Clearwater Revival's catalogue comes to mind.)
I do confess a certain "leaning" towards SACD, if only because it is an exclusively NON-Video format. In my Pioneer player, sacd's act *just* like red book cds - NO frikken menu is necessary, which means no *monitor* is necessary either. After the initial setup, the simple, front LED display is all one needs. Perhaps that is why, also, there is less confusion in your own area, when you ask sales clerks for SACD's vs. "DVD-Audio". There is an appalling lack of consumer knowledge/awareness re: DVD-A, and I think the lion's-share of blame for *that* has to be dumped squarely on the heads of the major labels who make and market DVD-A. To that extent, I DO agree with UHF magazine. ("DVD-A blew it big time.")
I love video too, and although video and audio are inextricably intertwined, I believe (and want) genuine HI-Resolution audio to be able to stand on it's own merit, *sans* the extra, unnecessary video footage. High end audio deserves a place of it's own.
(By the way, I just got my email from Mark.) I hope you get to read the full article too, Prisoner.
Best Regards, -- Mike.
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