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Proposed limitation on "Newbie" posts...
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drchips
Senior Member
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30. March 2004 @ 13:31 |
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Hi All,
I have noticed there has been more and more "Newbies" starting threads in the more Advanced sections of the forum.
The majority (vastly so in my opinion) are questions that rightly should be in the Newbie section.
Is it possible to disallow Newbie & Junior Members from STARTING threads in the Advanced sections - they should be allowed to post to existing threads (not all Newbies are total dorks, some of them have valuable contributions to make).
The "Doc"
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AfterDawn Addict
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31. March 2004 @ 01:16 |
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Not sure that would work. There could be a Newbie to the forum with an advanced question to ask...
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drchips
Senior Member
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31. March 2004 @ 08:15 |
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Quote:
There could be a Newbie to the forum with an advanced question to ask...
In the event that should happen (tis a rare thing, go look at the threads and judge for yourself), it is so easy for a Mod to move that thread - it would happen so infrequently that to turn down the possibility of an "improvement" because there is a small probability of a particular occurance seems a bit like "Political Correctness".
For every possible improvement, there will always be an objection, because it might disadvantage someone, at some time, under some circumstances.....
The proposal would bring far greater benefit and, with other changes (Moderator Alert Function and others I am thinking about), would act to REDUCE the load on the Moderators/Admin - it seems a worthy goal to try and get the forums to a self-regulating state, whereby the more prolific/senior members are assisting the Mods (bearing in mind the low ratio of Mods to other members).
Have Fun....
Life is just more of the same:
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brian100
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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31. March 2004 @ 10:36 |
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Drchips
I am a Junior member & bitterly resent your suggestion that i should not be able to initiate a thread on the "advanced" section. I don't make stupid posts, i bide my time & when i think i can contribute i will post.I always read the questions, that are posted, carefully, unlike many members on this forum. I dont post answers, that have already been answered correctly, unlike many other members on this forum.I dont take a "superior" stance, unlike certain members on this forum. I have noticed a lot of members (senior aswell) that make "stupid" unneccesary posts, but i dont complain.Perhaps these people are trying to boost their "post count" to attain a higher status? I simply just accept it because I am merely a lowlife "junior member" Perhaps I should complain because some threads now are basically turning into "chat zones", with pathetic squabbling and meaningless "off topic banter". I also use the "search" facility extensively to try and track down "similar" topics. Hence my post count is "not as high as I could have made it!!"
If the moderators decide to accept your proposal I feel that many people will simply just leave this forum. The forum would then just lose its spark & enjoyment of many members.
I must admit, i am now tempted to become a "lurker" on this forum and never post. I did this when i first joined this forum.
I agree that there are some obvious newbie posts that should not be posted in the advanced section, it's always going to happen.Some "newbies (and i hate that term) dont know that the questions they are asking are basic. Perhaps the moderators could "move" these posts to a more suitable location?
I am sorry to post this next section me ole chippy fella, but perhaps you "feel" you should be a "moderator". You can flame me all you want for that comment, I deserve it.
I
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 31. March 2004 @ 11:55
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Moderator
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31. March 2004 @ 12:17 |
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I think the doc excluded you, Brian, with this statement from his original post:
Quote:
(not all Newbies are total dorks, some of them have valuable contributions to make).
I think you did things right by lurking and learning and then posting with real questions and comments. I think what frustrates the doc and many here is the fact that so many people don't even look at past threads or run searches for their questions, they just post away oblivious to the wealth of information around here. It strikes me as a bit lazy on their part.
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33 |
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drchips
Senior Member
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31. March 2004 @ 12:52 |
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Quote:
I am a Junior member
You have earned that status and are undoubtably close to being a Member (quantity of posts is the criteria).Quote:
& bitterly resent your suggestion
an emotional reaction, surely a well reasoned argument would have been better!Quote:
I don't make stupid posts, i bide my time & when i think i can contribute i will post.
Agreed, you are one of the few who do so, and as far as I am concerned, you stand out because of that - your evaluation of what are "stupid posts" is just that, your evaluation and not an empirical standard (unless of course you believe that YOUR standards of evaluation should be imposed as the forum standard?Quote:
I always read the questions, that are posted, carefully, unlike many members on this forum. I dont post answers, that have already been answered correctly, unlike many other members on this forum
Ah, you too have noticed, good for you.Quote:
I dont take a "superior" stance, unlike certain members on this forum.
Once again, kudos to you, though you could not really claim otherwise as it would undermine the "Politically Correct" stance you have taken up (that is a difficult task you have taken upon yourself, the champion of the poor downtrodden masses, so easy it is to slip into or be forced into a holier-than-thou, self-righteous and therefore untenable position, rather you than me!!)Quote:
I have noticed a lot of members (senior aswell) that make "stupid" unneccesary posts, but i dont complain
As is your right to choose, no-one here would gainsay that.Quote:
Perhaps these people are trying to boost their "post count" to attain a higher status?
A specious rehetorical question designed to elicit an emotional response in the reader - if you took the time to find out you would KNOW that the progression from Newbie through Junior Member to Member is based on quantity of posts, further "elevation" (sic) is NOT based on post quantity, so what you are questioning CANNOT happen, but is an effective mechanism to garner support from those who are unaware - good try though ;)Quote:
I simply just accept it because I am merely a lowlife "junior member"
That will change, then you will not need to feel guilty - should do wonders for your self-esteem ;)Quote:
some threads now are basically turning into "chat zones",
Would YOU want to stop that?, to impose YOUR standards of acceptable discussion?
Please bear in mind this is NOT a manufacturers support forum, it is an open forum, a community if you will, I would agree that a manufacturers support forum would have a far more rigid structure controlling interactions and the such, but this is a more open community.
What kind of community do you live in that frowns upon "chat" and "banter"? - I doubt that forcing an Orwellian ruleset upon this forum would be a good thing.Quote:
I agree that there are some obvious newbie posts that should not be posted in the advanced section, it's always going to happen.Some "newbies (and i hate that term) dont know that the questions they are asking are basic. Perhaps the moderators could "move" these posts to a more suitable location?
The Moderators are overworked as it is (there is a low ratio of Mods to other members), it would mean LESS work for them to move the occasional "Newbie" thread that SHOULD BE in the "Advanced" area than to move the multitude of incorrectly sited "Newbie" threads into the "Newbie" area.
This is a community, and functions as a community, as such the people of that community should take some of the responsibility for managing that community, just as in real life (in real life, there are areas in your community where you are restricted from entering unless invited/accompanied, this is normal, expected and in the main the "right" way - allowing unrestricted access to all areas for everyone irrespective of trust etc has invariably been shown to be a recipe for disaster, the society TENDS to degenerate into anarchy)
Unfortunately, this is an excellent example of the kind of "knee-jerk" reaction that is to be expected whenever ANY KIND OF CHANGE is proposed that MAY "inconvenience" some of the more "disadvantaged", "less experienced" or just plain "intellectually challenged" among us.
It purely dripped with emotionally charged terminology, reeking of "Political Correctness"
Must we all be cast in the same mould?
Must we all be "Politically Correct" in deed, word and thought?
Is there no place in this community for a dissenting viewpoint?
Is there no place in this community for a proposal for the evaluation of change to be put forward without such an attack being forthcoming?
This is a FORUM, if you do a Google search on the definition you will be able to read many differing explanations of what it is: BUT, in none of those is any mention of the suppression of ideas or thoughts as a function of a forum.
Have Fun...
Life is just more of the same:
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brian100
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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31. March 2004 @ 21:58 |
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Oriphus
I had planned on leaving the forum for good, but I have enjoyed it so much since initially joining I would simply miss it too much. I have greatly enjoyed reading your input and the help you have given me is truly invaluable. Many many thanks.
Dr chips
Your obvious debating skills are without doubt excellent. I have no doubt that I would easily lose a war of words with you, so I will calmly back down & accept that your original post was in the best interests of this forum.
My self esteem does not need to be improved, I would be very happy to "lurk" on these forums, and remain a junior member. It does not affect my ability to produce the results i achieve. I take in all the excellent, and some not so excellent, views that are expressed.
What really got my goat was your apparent "tarring" of "most" (not all) newbies as dorks on this forum.Thats such a derrogatory term and it was bound to enrage many newbies and members alike.No other newbie stood up for execution so I thought i's have my two penneth worth.
I have been in engineering for many many years now & have gained great experience in the field. In my experience the greatest innovation & debate can be initiated by the, so called, junior staff who are not tarnished by fears of failure & ridicule. Your original post, if implemented, would actively discourage new members from becoming "involved" and as a result would drive them away in heards. Probably something that the moderators & owners of this site would not like.
I am not pushing my terms of conduct on this forum, I am merely stating my viewpoint after reading this excellent forum for a good few months.
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 1. April 2004 @ 02:24
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AfterDawn Addict
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1. April 2004 @ 02:04 |
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Quote:
Byeeeeeeeee all and to coin a phrase "Have fun".
Bye from the thread or the forum. Dont be leaving the forum now, we need valuable members like yourself!!
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drchips
Senior Member
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1. April 2004 @ 11:17 |
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brian100:
Most excellent post!
That fits better with the impression you have made with all your other posts across the forum; clear, reasoned, easily assimilated and understood, with few points of contestation - SOME of the hallmarks of an Adult viewpoint.
Your previous post in this thread seemed "out of character", but then again, I am not a people-person so my judgement in that respect is undoubtably flawed.
My strengths lie in analysis and investigation, other "better qualified" persons deal with the personal, face-to-face interrogation scenarios, I provide analysis, tracing, tracking etc support.
I am merely a flawed male who occasionally gets it wrong (unlike the female of the species :o ).
Glad you have decided to remain with the forum.
This community of ours NEEDS all types, stable and even-tempered types like yourself, "kindly Uncle" types like ScubaPete, conciliatory types like Oriphus, even inflammatory types like myself IF it is to avoid the slide towards stagnation
(we even need the dumb-nuts types like that one wanting a username & serial number for a program - that was a good idea of yours for Dumbest Post Of The Week, hope it comes about: but does that not come close to the fear & ridicule point you made in your post).
What I was proposing was:
Newbies be limited with respect to STARTING threads in the advanced section.
Newbies have NO limitations on POSTING A REPLY in that section.
I agree that the label "Newbie" is not an indication of their level of skill in any matter, but it is a good indication of the PROBABLE level of skill, and a VERY GOOD indicator of their experience of being part of this community.
Any Newbie having any level of skill will have no restriction on assisting others (other than STARTING a thread in the Advanced section), and as such, the vast majority of them would never come up against such a restriction.
What it would do is act as a cleanup for that particular problem (much as a No Entry sign on a one-way street, it acts to stop drivers going the wrong way, though there are always those who feel affront at such limitation).
It is in fact a small restriction, sufficient to ensure that those who are most likely to be unaware of the structure and function of the differing parts of the forum are then guided or prompted to the other areas which are probably more suitable for their question.
As the entry barrier would be so low (the progression from Newbie through Junior to Member can be in a short period of time, it is post based), those who use the site (posting) would quickly gain entry to that area (by that time they SHOULD have absorbed some idea of what questions go where).
Unfortunately, this would tend to have a more restrictive effect upon "lurkers" (post counts being relatively low), but it seems the vibrancy and spark of the forum comes from Posters, not Lurkers, hence it is reasonable to conclude that the spark would not be lost.
In my view (which may be wrong), those who are most likely to be offended by such a small restriction and choose to go elsewhere are those who rail against ALL restrictions of any form, including having to pay for software (I guess you are a parent, imagine your child having no restrictions or guidance, ever!).
How many of those people should the forum harbour and support?
If we do not police and take responsibility for our own community, that policing and regulation will be IMPOSED FROM OUTSIDE the community (and who wants politicians/big business etc controlling this community? NOT ME!!)
If my proposal is deemed to be unworkable after examination by other members of the community, then so be it..
But to dismiss it out of hand does not seem logical.
Hopefully this will engender discussion, maybe some other ideas/proposals can be put forward, anything to hopefully improve our community.
Have Fun....
Life is just more of the same:
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brian100
Suspended due to non-functional email address
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1. April 2004 @ 13:05 |
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Drchips
Lets hope that others join this discussion so we can gauge the level of membership feeling on your suggestion. If the membership pour cold water on your idea I will gladfully recommend your initial post for "dumbest post of the week " I think "Drchips dumbo" has rather a nice ring to it.
I personally think that some sort of regulation, probably my senior members, is bound to be introduced in future. Change always takes place both in life and business. It's inevitable.
I would personally like to see a banner that appears before a new thread is posted. The banner could take the form, for example :-
"PLEASE USE THE SEARCH ENGINE AND ENSURE YOU ARE POSTNG ON THE CORRECT FORUM PRIOR TO POSTING A NEW THREAD"
This harmless & totally inoffensive banner could deter many members, and newbies, from posting duplicate or inappropriate information. It's only a suggestion and my guess is that it would be easier to implement than your proposed method.
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1. April 2004 @ 13:41 |
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Glad to hear you are sticking around Brian, and glad you have found some of my threads useful or atleast interesting. Anyone interested in Home Cinema, i've put lots of good information to get you started in the Home Cinema section of the forum.
I dont really see any sort of regulation my senior members taking place though on this forum, though of course i dont know that. I feel that if dRD or Ketola think that there needs to be more regulation introduced, they will convert a few addicts and possibly senior members to moderator status.
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drchips
Senior Member
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1. April 2004 @ 13:44 |
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brian100:
A banner such as you have commented on could be so easily implemented (even trivially so, bearing in mind the obvious skill of dRD et al), but I fear it would be ignored, just clicked through.
Such a banner popup (a splash screen) has been implemented for Newbies upon login (so I am led to believe, I have not seen it myself), prompting them to read the forum rules:
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/0/69839#359016
Despite this, it seems that there is an increasing level of posts being made that break the forum rules.
Extrapolate that situation to your proposal.
Then compare to a mild enforcement that cannot be ignored.
As for the ease of implementation, only dRD and the Admins can comment on that.
If I am to be named "Dumbo" for a week, can I be the first one ever! ;)
Have Fun....
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2. April 2004 @ 03:00 |
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I love my title to be changed to "Stupid Newbie" for a laugh
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Hunter007
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2. April 2004 @ 09:32 |
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I think this is a very appropiate topic and as far as I can see, a logical debate. Now drchips has many valid points supporting his request for the "newbie" ban on starting threads in advanced sections. You too, were a newbie and probably had some serious questions to ask before you gained rank. How would you like it, not being able to post a question, even after searching the forums over and over? I am not trying to be hostile or anything, just sharing my opinion.
One thing I have noticed is the increasing number of threads labeled "HELP ME!!!!!!" or something along these lines, usually posted by a newbie. As we are thinking up ideas to propose, I say that there should be some exceptions in thread titles. I know that it is probably only a few lines of code, to exclude such words as "help". I think this would be helpful to the members of this site that want to help out. I for one, don't like to see thread titles with the word "help" and no explanation of what the problem is.
I'm not saying that I am better then newbies, because I am only a Junior Member, but they should (as well as all members should) use the search feature. Many questions are answered there. There are some newbies that have a lot of information and knowledge to spread, some even more then senior members on this site and should be given credit for it and a chance to show what they know. I don't think it is a contest, but newbies should be able to start threads in advanced topics.
I have read the thread carefully, but I seem to have missed something...This ban is only for the advanced sections, am I correct?
_
AMD Athlon 64 3400+
Asus K8V-SE Deluxe Motherboard
200 gb Western Digital HD (7200rpm)
LG 16x DVD ROM
LG GSA-4160B 16x DVD Burner
ATI Radeon 9600 SE Gold Edition 256mb
1 gig DDR 400 OCZ Dual Channel RAM
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 2. April 2004 @ 09:34
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AfterDawn Addict
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2. April 2004 @ 11:48 |
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Quote:
One thing I have noticed is the increasing number of threads labeled "HELP ME
Its always been a problem. Newbies have splash screens now before they post - i wish they would read them...
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Moderator
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2. April 2004 @ 15:27 |
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Maybe implement something to where if somebody types "help me" for the title they get redirected a crisis website or something.
My killer sig came courtesy of bb "El Jefe" mayo.
The Forum Rules You Agreed To! http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/2487
"And there we saw the giants, and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight" - Numbers 13:33
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andmerr
Suspended permanently
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3. April 2004 @ 00:29 |
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brian100,drchips ,oriphus and nephilim
always nice to see people playing so nicely together.You all have valid posts on how you all see the current situation of this forum, and i guess ultimately its dRD and the moderators who will change the site for the betterment of us.
I had a few more thoughts on this matter but o'well maybe in another life i will elaborate.Needless to say i quite enjoyed this thread and the banter you guys were having.I see drchips is quite an accomplish'd debater and brian give it time you will be very good as well and maybe an equal to drchips but you need to stop being so emotional but think more logical.
have fun guys and thanks for the enjoyment.(This definitely was the hi point to this week)
andmerr
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brian100
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3. April 2004 @ 07:33 |
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andmerr
This is off topic !!.
Perhaps over 20 years working in British engineering as a designer is enough to drive even the most balanced individual to occasionally wear ones heart on ones sleeve!(recurring dream...I hope that £500k order of metal work i just ordered fits...correction it's a nightmare!!)
And the next question is, c'mon lets have your opinion on the original thread. Speak up, I promise I won't blow a gasket, especially as the England cricket team are 2 - 0 up against The West Indies & it looks like were going to go 3 - 0 up, take advantage NOW I am as mellow as a cat in a cream factory !!
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 3. April 2004 @ 07:42
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drchips
Senior Member
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3. April 2004 @ 08:09 |
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andmerr:
I agree with Brian, we need your input on the original proposal AND the subsequent changes as suggested.
In fact, the more people comment, the greater level of feedback to everyone.....
Cheers...
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Praetor
Moderator
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3. April 2004 @ 23:04 |
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Quote:
In the event that should happen (tis a rare thing, go look at the threads and judge for yourself), it is so easy for a Mod to move that thread - it would happen so infrequently that to turn down the possibility of an "improvement" because there is a small probability of a particular occurance seems a bit like "Political Correctness".
Even though its been ages since I was a newbie here, i tend to side with Brian on this (course this is just my opinion). Kinda like the "freedom of speec" thing, yes there will always be people making posts in the wrong room or whatnot but one has to give people the benifit of a doubt (well you dont have to but its just common courtesy). Furthermore what will inevitably happen is that people who are 'offended' or 'annoyed' will end up making posts with titles like "ADVANCED QUESTION: ...."
Quote:
Not sure that would work. There could be a Newbie to the forum with an advanced question to ask...
Or even cases where there are extremely knowledgeable users out there who are more or less, lurkers, they hang around to keep up to date and once in a blue moon they need advanced level help -- they gotta post 35 thingys to be able to ask an advanced question?
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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Perhaps these people are trying to boost their "post count" to attain a higher status?
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A specious rehetorical question designed to elicit an emotional response in the reader - if you took the time to find out you would KNOW that the progression from Newbie through Junior Member to Member is based on quantity of posts, further "elevation" (sic) is NOT based on post quantity, so what you are questioning CANNOT happen, but is an effective mechanism to garner support from those who are unaware - good try though ;)
Wrong doc.... well... not quite wrong hehe. Your porposal to limit new posts for Newbies and Juniors would mean that people have to make 100 posts before they could ask a question -- hardly fair and hardly effective.
Quote:
Your obvious debating skills are without doubt excellent. I have no doubt that I would easily lose a war of words with you, so I will calmly back down & accept that your original post was in the best interests of this forum.
Well.... someone with more formal debating experience like myself... :P heeheee On a more serious note, I'm sure his intentions were good :)
Quote:
Maybe implement something to where if somebody types "help me" for the title they get redirected a crisis website or something.
Hehe except there are so many small variants to be able to do that.
Hunter007: the proposed ban is only for advanced sections, i think we are for the most part discussing what constitutes as advanced and whether it is appropriate to bring about such policies
One final point Doc, by the very nature of "advanced" questions, i think we can agree that the majority of truely advanced questions do not fit into a "generic category" that we can give a "generic answer" for but rather, they are questions which are for the most part, unique.(heck Ive asked a couple 'advanced' questions and none have answers yet :P). People who encounter these 'advacned' problems typically fire up google which leads them here..... and to find out that they cant ask a question because there is the supposition that its a beginner question is, i would imagine, outrageous and I would expect the response/mutterings to be along the lines of "screw this shit ill just go somewhehre else" -- now i'm sure other sites (or even the majoirity of them) and forums have "restricted" msg boards for people that have 'proven' themselves to be 'competent' but part of the AD community that prompted me to join (and stick around) was that "yes the rank may say 'newbie' but that dude does know what he's talking about" rather than "you havnt posted enough so therefore you havnt proven yourself and therefore you must not be knoweledgeable". Kind of an equal-footting/respect kinds of environment.
=====
But seriously people, from what I know of this forum, it should be open to the public -- DrChips made mention of rules and ettiquete just like society and such and those are, for the most part, covered by the formal rules and policies of the forum, the normal morons that spam and such will be dealt with per usual still.
We were all newbies at one point or another and by asking questions -- even those that are on the surface "stupid", we can all learn or share in a laugh or better yet, both (good example, http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/67548) . There shouldnt be a requirement that one devote a certain amount of time, energy or effort into the community before being allowed to ask questions or post comments and such.
By segregating the users into "allowed to post advacned" and "not allowed to post advanced" groups, we develop a sense of elitism -- which, while it developed relationships between existing "allowed to post advacned"-members and "keeps the conversation level advaced" it does detract from the purpose of helping people and sharing knowledge and makes for a very 'closed' community.
Perhaps a more-closed or tighter or more-advanced community is a good thing as a whole -- i cant really comment because when i joined was was relatively knowledgeable -- but one thing Ive gotten back from my experience with AD is that ive gotten to meet (or should i say e-meet) some pretty kewl people -- from when i was newbie to my time here as Mod.
Finally, I think, pertaining to this topic that everyone take a step back and remember that we are all entitled to our opinions and more pertinantly regarding our OPINIONS of "what is advanced" and "what is newbie". Whereas we may have a general consensuse of what is what it is not absolute and there is always someone with more experience and more knowledge than us who could easily classify every one of us as newbies -- and that wouldnt be any fun now would it? ;-)
I'm sure all of us have heard of the saying "Every question is important" or something along the lines of that and even though yes I admit i find teleporting posts around is a pain, it seems more appropriate than to be pre casting judgement simply based on a number. I personally would rather spend an extra 2 clicks (or was it 3) to teleport a post around rather than cast prejudgement on someones question.
I *swear* it says somewhere, "Senior Members, Addicts, Mods" are not neccesarily more knowledgeable regarding topics but rather they are select based purely on their ability to interact with members -- especially their ability/capacity to provide answers to newbies and the depth to which they do so. It just so happens that in most cases, the Sr/Addic/Mod happens to be fairly knowledgeable.
To recapitulate what ive been rambling on about, I think that there would be a negative response from potential members. Naturally I cannot and will not comment for members already here. I think that, if this policy were to be implemented, the best middleground would be to limit it to just restricting Newbies since, by the time most users get promoted to Junior they have an idea of what goes where and such. And the only reason motivating this is that virtually 100% of the spam and generally stupid/misplaced posts occur when with Newbies and that a lot of spammers are of the in-and-out variety -- after beeing deactivated they rarely come back -- then again theres always enough of them. Perhaps what you have in mind Doc is something of a Senior/Addict msg board?
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andmerr
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3. April 2004 @ 23:29 |
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the gist is there are some minor issues about how newbies go about getting answers to there problems and where the posts originate.
Is there no little tool at your disposal that you guys can implement that as long as they have the newbie or junior member tag that until they reach the higher levels like 'god' or should i say member status that they can read the posts in all sections but cant actually post in the advanced sections.This solution might infuriate them but it will weed out the ones who just post anywhere and they may then have to search before posting questions.I know that its quanity of posts not quality maybe that should change.
but as i pointed out before i'm just a number it really is up to the site owners and moderators to fix the probs that pop up.
quote:You all have valid posts on how you all see the current situation of this forum, and i guess ultimately its dRD and the moderators who will change the site for the betterment of us.
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Praetor
Moderator
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4. April 2004 @ 00:02 |
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Quote:
Is there no little tool at your disposal that you guys can implement that as long as they have the newbie or junior member tag that until they reach the higher levels like 'god' or should i say member status that they can read the posts in all sections but cant actually post in the advanced sections.
Quite doable, I just dont see real justification to prejudge everyone beforehand. :-)
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 4. April 2004 @ 00:05
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andmerr
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4. April 2004 @ 01:41 |
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praetor ,
maybe i should of worded it a little bit more carefully along the lines of: for those that the moderators think, warrant it.
Instead of jumping in all gungho.
andmerr
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Praetor
Moderator
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4. April 2004 @ 07:09 |
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?
Everyone's opinion is respected as far as I'm concerned -- provided you're not being stupid -- which you werent, I was replying purely at a technical level. :-)
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drchips
Senior Member
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4. April 2004 @ 10:11 |
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Hi All,
From brian100's first post (a later edit)Quote:
I am sorry to post this next section me ole chippy fella, but perhaps you "feel" you should be a "moderator". You can flame me all you want for that comment, I deserve it.
Dear God, perish the thought!!!
Me a Mod, that would most definately not be acceptable, and I would not accept, for the following reasons:
I am not a people person, I have difficulty understanding and tolerating the vagaries of the human condition.
I am of too contentious a disposition.
I have a tendancy towards the "Dark Side of The Force".
I tend to be a bit of a Control Freak.
I am an inveterate rule-follower.
I have a tendancy to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
etc etc
I know my limitations too well, I know I am a flawed human - I am also old enough to know and catch those limitations (most of the time !LOL!).
This makes me extremely well suited to my chosen profession, and extremely unsuited to anything like a Moderator (please, can EVERYONE keep the One Ring To Rule Them All AWAY FROM ME!!!!).
You can breathe easy Brian, no worries mate ;)
Hunter007:
Thanks for joining in, and welcome.Quote:
How would you like it, not being able to post a question, even after searching the forums over and over?
My INITIAL proposal was to limit Newbie & Junior Members starting threads (posting questions, if you will) in the ADVANCED section.
That was subsequently modified in my fourth post to readQuote:
What I was proposing was:
Newbies be limited with respect to STARTING threads in the advanced section.
Newbies have NO limitations on POSTING A REPLY in that section.
The difference being that Junior Members would not be subject to limitation (I realised that the original proposal would have too broad an effect, and should be limited to target those who abuse the rules the most).
Nowhere within my proposal was there any hint that Newbies would not be able to post a question - perhaps you misunderstood ;)
You too have noticed the abuse, the ignoring of rules, the posting of "Help Me!!" type threads etc..
If it is obvious to a Junior Member like yourself, the situation needs to be examined, and dealt with, do you not agree???
Praetor:
Welcome to the debate.
If I may be allowed to deal with some of the points you have raised...Quote:
people who are 'offended' or 'annoyed' will end up making posts with titles like "ADVANCED QUESTION: ...."
Yes, that MAY happen!!
What you, the other Mods, Admin (basically the authorities of the forum) could do is make some ROUGH calculations on probability and effect:
What probability that such posts would happen? and how often?
What probability the abuse by Newbies will continue? and how often?
What is the probable ratio of Newbies LIABLE to posting a question in the wrong area to "Advanced Lurkers" LIABLE to post a question in the Advanced area?
What is the probable ratio of Newbie posts in the Advanced area that RIGHTFULLY should be moved compared to the probable ratio of "Advanced" questions that SHOULD be moved to the Advanced area?Quote:
Or even cases where there are extremely knowledgeable users out there who are more or less, lurkers, they hang around to keep up to date and once in a blue moon they need advanced level help
Those cases are possible, I agree.
BUT: they ARE extreme minority cases, are they not??
I know that society in general is suffering from a malaise that deems that minorities are to be molly-coddled at the expense of the vast majority, but does this forum need to be infected with that illness???Quote:
Wrong doc.... well... not quite wrong hehe. Your porposal to limit new posts for Newbies and Juniors would mean that people have to make 100 posts before they could ask a question -- hardly fair and hardly effective.
You also missed the change in proposal made in my fourth post...
So the possibility exists that your judgement on me being "wrong" or "not quite wrong" may be in error?
So, two people missed the change.
First was Hunter007, a Junior Member.
Second was Praetor, a Moderator with Formal Debating Experience (surprised I was that YOU missed it)
Please can interested parties take note of the change of proposal.Quote:
i think we are for the most part discussing what constitutes as advanced and whether it is appropriate to bring about such policies
Well put, I concur wholeheartedly..Quote:
by the very nature of "advanced" questions, i think we can agree that the majority of truely advanced questions do not fit into a "generic category" that we can give a "generic answer" for but rather, they are questions which are for the most part, unique
I concur - so maybe the Advanced section should be renamed to be "Not NooBs Generic Questions" <just joking to illustrate a point>Quote:
I think that, if this policy were to be implemented, the best middleground would be to limit it to just restricting Newbies since, by the time most users get promoted to Junior they have an idea of what goes where and such.
It seems that you are slowly coming round to the LOGIC of my proposal, even though on an emotional/social level it may not feel "quite" right (difficult to say exactly what is "wrong" with it, though :o )Quote:
And the only reason motivating this is that virtually 100% of the spam and generally stupid/misplaced posts occur when with Newbies and that a lot of spammers are of the in-and-out variety -- after beeing deactivated they rarely come back -- then again theres always enough of them.
Very well put, though it may not be the ONLY reason, it is undoubtably the MAIN reason for implementing the proposal (or something similar)Quote:
Perhaps what you have in mind Doc is something of a Senior/Addict msg board?
Not at all, never did I consider such.
That would smack of Elitism for sure, and surely would be divisive - you won't catch me with that one, sorry. !LOL!.
I am not elitist, and to be truthful, care little for status...
Let us all keep this debate going, and hopefully we can achieve a concensus on improvement.
Have Fun...
Life is just more of the same:
This message has been edited since posting. Last time this message was edited on 4. April 2004 @ 11:38
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